[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly As a reader, I also like to see new product announcements. I know this is a tricky one but my favorite style of this is the way HeadWize does it: Chu posts information in the News section about new and upcoming headphones and headphone related products including basic specs, a picture and a link to more information. I wish we had something similar to that here.

We actually have that on Head-Fi -- it's on the main page. It's just that Jude's been a bit busy lately so it doesn't have a lot of updates

 

[eric343]

Kelly: Well, if you send your browser to http://www.head-fi.org, then you'll notice that there's HeadWize-style news blurbs on the page, too - even if they're only updated about as often as their HeadWize counterparts

(*cough* cableandsourcereviews *cough*)

And in general I'd agree that Mall-Fi is VERY effective advertising. For a paltry $20 it brought in an amazing number of PM and email inquires (which continue still, two months after the ad expired, despite the fact that I've said a few times that I'm not taking orders due to schoolwork!) and more than enough sales to keep me busy. And it gave me that nice warm fuzzy feeling that I was supporting Head-Fi

I'm sure there are more ways we can help Jude out; one idea that I've been mentally tossing around would be a "Guild of DIYFSE-ers" that would keep a front-page ad with a listing of the usernames of all the members and a motto of some sort, on a nice background. Essentially a way for those of us who earn money from Head-Fi to give a little back, without having to pay the full fee (which is a bit too pricey for a buisiness like DIYFSE).

 

[kelly]

I've seen this site, Head-Fi, that you speak of. Seriously, I have sometimes come in through the front door but I don't know what it takes to get mentioned in that page. I don't remember seeing, for example, a note that the META42 design was complete and little links to PM JMT, Tangent and Eric about it--or a price and link for the mini-META that this thread was actually about. I thought these products weren't listed there as a matter of policy rather than just as a matter of omission. Which is true?

 

[jude]

[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by kelly ....The trouble is trying to leave in the things we want. As a user, if I were disallowed from being candid in my advice about products--including pricing, where to purchase, where to find the best price, etc., I'd stop posting my advice to other users. (I bet some folk would see this as a good thing.) As a reviewer, if I couldn't post information including price and where to purchase, I'd stop posting reviews. As a reader, I very much like the interaction we currently have with product designers and manufacturers. I like that they've been allowed to answer factual questions about their products in public and are able to discuss design philosophy and user desires in the forum. I know some individual questions could be handled privately, but I take personal interest in discussions surrounding many questions that I myself didn't think to ask. I hope this doesn't go away. As a reader, I also like to see new product announcements. I know this is a tricky one but my favorite style of this is the way HeadWize does it: Chu posts information in the News section about new and upcoming headphones and headphone related products including basic specs, a picture and a link to more information. I wish we had something similar to that here. I know there is a fine line between news and advertising but I hate to see news sacrificed in the name of blocking free ads. I know some users have been problematic for the moderators in terms of posting new product information repeatedly. Maybe a more official means of doing this would help close the gap I think we currently have. Think about it, at least.

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Reviewers not affiliated in any official capacity with a manufacturer shouldn't be affected by the no-ad rule. I've posted retail prices in all my reviews (I know, I know, I'm way behind schedule on my reviews....they're coming, I promise). If I review a product that's only available via direct order from the manufacturer, I'd say that too. I don't work for any manufacturer or dealer, so my review -- positive or negative -- isn't an advertisement by the manufacturer/dealer.

Like you, kelly, I also very much enjoy our interaction with manufacturers, and I think our interaction with manufacturers here has been pretty cool. But it can be done without them advertising. Someone asks a technical question? I think it's great that they answer it. Should they show restraint about pitching their gear? Absolutely. I definitely do not want to see discussion with manufacturers and designers go away. Someone at Audio Asylum who seems to do this very effectively is Ray Kimber (Kimber Kable). I can honestly say I've never seen him pitch his gear (I haven't read every one of his posts, of course), but yet he interacts very effectively with the people over there. I think we're on the same page here, actually.

We've had new product announcements on the front page from time to time. We will probably still do this in some capacity, but, as you said, there's a lot still to think through, and we'll figure it out as we go along, and the sooner the better.

As we move along, the gray areas should begin to disappear. We'll figure this all out, and the place will continue to be groovy. I hope it has been clear that I welcome the participation of manufacturers, I only ask that they don't advertise in the General Forums; and that they consider supporting Head-Fi in some capacity if they don't already.

 

[jude]

[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by kelly I've seen this site, Head-Fi, that you speak of. Seriously, I have sometimes come in through the front door but I don't know what it takes to get mentioned in that page. I don't remember seeing, for example, a note that the META42 design was complete and little links to PM JMT, Tangent and Eric about it--or a price and link for the mini-META that this thread was actually about. I thought these products weren't listed there as a matter of policy rather than just as a matter of omission. Which is true?

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It's just me being busy. I work 80 to 100 hours per week, and that page is quite primitive to work with. I do the HTML with an editor at home, and then upload it to the site. I'd like to do something more database-driven for that page (I know there are some options out there, but I haven't had much time to try them out), so that maybe a few designated people could easily do front page updates, instead of just me working with an HTML editor thingie.

[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by kelly ...I thought these products weren't listed there as a matter of policy rather than just as a matter of omission....

[/size]

Why'd you assume that? On those fairly rare occasions I've put new announcements up, I've included things like:

[size=xx-small]June 11, 2002: Head-Fi member RickG noticed a new integrated amp that was designed with significant emphasis given to its built-in headphone output. The company is Portal Audio, and their integrated amp is called the Panache. I spoke briefly with Joe Abrams of Portal Audio, and he gave a little insight into his product. Click here to see RickG's thread for more information.

June 11, 2002: Oi, DIY'ers! Head-Fi member tangent has decided to go commercial and will make META42 boards available for sale. For more information on this board and how to order one, click here. For some background information and history of this particular design, please click here.

July 1, 2002: Stefan AudioArt is now making audiophile-grade replacement cables for the AKG K-1000 headphones. James told me that the new cable "opens up the soundstage, increases and adds richness to the lower frequencies, dramatically warms the mid-range and offers natural balanced the high frequencies." They'll be priced at US$179.00 for the five-foot length, but Head-Fi members can get a special deal until July 15, 2002 -- US$129.00 for a five-foot length. For more information and a photo, click here.

February 27, 2002: Stefan AudioArt is releasing a new Spectrum Balanced Series line of cables. These new cables will be based on a variation of their top-of-the-line Equinox formula. The first product in the series is the Nightpath Spectrum Balanced, which is available for the Sennheiser HD-580/600, HD-564, and HD-535.

February 1, 2002: I posted my first impressions of the Cardas prototype cable for the Sennheiser HD-580/600 here.

January 16, 2002: Stefan AudioArt now has two upgrade cables for the Sennheiser HD-580/HD-600 headphones, available via custom order only. Click here to see a picture of their Equinox Audiophile Headphone Cable with the Sennheiser HD-600's. Visit their web site for details.

December 20, 2001: Head-Fi member Magic77 reports that AKG has two new models coming soon: the K 141 Studio and the K 240 Studio. A press release about them was issued in November. Click here to read it.

November 23, 2001: Stefan AudioArt has released their new Nightpath audiophile replacement cables for several of the Sennheiser headphone models. Go to their web site at http://www.stefanaudioart.com for details on price, and information on which specific headphone models they'll work with.

October 19, 2001: James S. Serdechny of Stephan AudioArt sent me some information about his Sennheiser replacement cables. His website will be at www.stefanaudioart.com -- it's still under construction as of today, but you can check out this page (MS Word document) for more information in the meantime. Though that page doesn't mention the HD-600's or HD-250 II's, he has plans to also include replacement cables for those 'phones in his line. Click here for a photograph of one his cables.

October 15, 2001: Head-Fi member evilcthul has been talking to Joseph Lau of Antique Sound Labs regarding suggestions for a new tube headphone amp Joseph Lau is in the process of developing for Antique Sound Labs. The indications are that this will be a higher end amp than the MG Head by Antique Sound Labs, and Joseph Lau will be monitoring our thread of suggestions. Make sure to provide input if you have any, and be a part of a product being designed right now for headphone enthusiasts.

October 16, 2001: With all the discussion of balanced power in the Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories Forum, I thought that some of you might be interested in a new balanced power unit being offered by Alpha-Core (known mostly for their cable products). Hmm....maybe a future review?

October 14, 2001: Chris Hoff of BPT (Balanced Power Technologies) is extending a 10% discount to all registered Head-Fi members on all BPT products. To see a Head-Fi forum thread discussing balanced power, click here. For much more detail on the concept of balanced power, visit this page at Equi=Tech's site.[/size]

Antique Sound Labs, BPT, Alphacore, Stefan AudioArt, AKG, Cardas, Portal Audio, tangent... Of all these, only one (tangent) has ever paid to advertise at Head-Fi.

So, regarding the META42, tangent, eric, JMT, etc.... I have no specific policy against announcing their stuff. For example, again, James Serdechny hasn't paid for any advertising or sponsorship here, yet he's had his products mentioned/announced on the front page several times -- he simply e-mailed me announcements, knowing I'd put them up if I had the chance. Take a look at the front page -- there's an announcement for a get-together that took place on 08/24/2002. I just don't have the time to manually update that page too often, and that's pretty much the issue at hand with that page.

As far as announcements go, I'm not sure yet, but there will have to be a policy on that, too. Otherwise I'll be deluged with announcements and ads that people want to see put up on the front page. I'm going to examine how Audio Asylum handles product announcements to see if there are any ideas to be had there. Again, we'll figure all these things out, and the gray areas will get more black and white.

 

[kelly]

Jude
I know html and would be glad to help out with this part of the board if you need help. As you probably know, I keep a pretty active radar up for new products, too.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly Jude I know html and would be glad to help out with this part of the board if you need help. As you probably know, I keep a pretty active radar up for new products, too.

Now there's an idea, man. Let's you and I examine this.

Still, though, a few people with access to a form-based interface to update the front page -- that'd be extra cool. There are some things available just for vBulletin-based forums, so I'll see what I can come up with.

But a policy about announcements of some sort has to be established, and I'll see this weekend if any other forums have guidelines about that worth instituting here.

 

[jude]

[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by eric343 Just out of curiosity, it is OK to post pics and a brief description and a link to a URL containing an "I'll build you one if you want" offer ("I just designed and built a $amp_name! It's got $buffers and $opamps and does the dishes too! Here's some pics: [pics] Oh, and if you want some more information, I've put up a website: $URL") if there's also a Mall-Fi ad linking to that same URL? (or the "I want you to build me one" sub-page if any)

[/size]

eric, I just noticed your question, but I'm not sure I understand it. If you could kindly restate it for me, I'd appreciate it. Assume my IQ is 25 and that you have to talk real slow. Thanks.

 

[JMT]

Quote:

Posted by jude: Assume my IQ is 25 and that you have to talk real slow.

....so difficult to leave that one alone. But, I will summon all of my will power.

 

[eric343]

LOL! Great response, JMT...

In any case, Jude, here's the (expanded) version of the scenario, using the BlockHead as an example.

Danny designs himself a BlockHead, and decides it's a really nice amp and he wants to sell it. So, Danny takes out an ad in Mall-Fi, saying that he'd like to build BlockHeads for interested customers, and posts a link to his website, which (for the purposes of this example) contains both information that would let an interested DIYer build himself/herself one but also has a page advertising Danny's services as an amp builder. In Danny's Mall-Fi ad, he links to the page advertising his services.

However, Danny also wants to brag about his elite amp-building skills, and let people know that the design can also be built by DIYers. So, he posts a thread in the DIY forum with pictures of the amp and a link to the 'Main' BlockHead page on his website - which includes both information on building it and (at the top of the page) a link to the sub-page describing how non-DIYers can order one from him.

Is this OK?

 

[mercid]

Jude,

I also am quite adapt at html, web design is my day job

I would be happy to help out the community in this manner. Your posts have really put things into perspective and I agree that all DIY'ers should support the community.

 

[jude]

[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by eric343 LOL! Great response, JMT... In any case, Jude, here's the (expanded) version of the scenario, using the BlockHead as an example. Danny designs himself a BlockHead, and decides it's a really nice amp and he wants to sell it. So, Danny takes out an ad in Mall-Fi, saying that he'd like to build BlockHeads for interested customers, and posts a link to his website, which (for the purposes of this example) contains both information that would let an interested DIYer build himself/herself one but also has a page advertising Danny's services as an amp builder. In Danny's Mall-Fi ad, he links to the page advertising his services. However, Danny also wants to brag about his elite amp-building skills, and let people know that the design can also be built by DIYers. So, he posts a thread in the DIY forum with pictures of the amp and a link to the 'Main' BlockHead page on his website - which includes both information on building it and (at the top of the page) a link to the sub-page describing how non-DIYers can order one from him. Is this OK?

[/size]

Thanks for clearing up that question for this here guy, so slow on the uptake.

The answer to the question is no. The advertising stuff has to stay in the area(s) designated for it.

 

[Fixup]

As the poster of the thread in concern, I respect the rules (as long as they are clear) and any decision made by head-fi staff and modulators.

I posted the pictures because I had seen similar posts, and I could not help myself of sharing the new amps I developed and love to see what people would say about them. I did not thought advertising (no need and no interest, really). If needed, I would have simply paid someone to post the pics for me. As you can see, I did not post any commercial words afterwards and kept my talk stricktly on technical issues. As already mentioned earlier, it is great to have a place for designers and users to talk. I liked very much the talk we had with Dan Wilson from Etymotic about a year ago, even though Dan and I had many differences. The fruit of that talk was the ER6.

Jude, I agree with you that this forum should still allow the talk between designers and users. However, the line between a product and a pre-product is hard to define. I never think my amp is really a commercial product but a fomat for a hobbiest to offer the best he or she could offer and to boost the technology. I have been and will be always improving it. Because my amp is a "product" and thus I can no longer talk about it technically, this will hurt your members and this forum. Looking at how many viewers the thread has got within just a month, you'll know how much people liked this type of discussion. Such attraction the thread has draw to this forum, is not what $$$ can do.

I fully understand your worries and your action. Even though I did not post any commercial content in that thread, it has gone so wild that some business people might go even far beyond. You ought to stop somewhere and my explosive thread ought to be the lucky one

If a thread did violate the rule of this forum, then it deserves being blocked. But, if it is blocked in fear of the unhappiness of the sponsors of this forum, then I'd say its not fair and don't worry. People come here to see what they want to see, not just what the sponsors want them to see. Is the most popular thread not the one people want to see? If people can no longer see what they want to, that's a real problem to a website or any type of media. I believe, if this forum has more threads like the one that get thousands times of viewing, people, including manufaturers, will be more willing to pay you to come here.

 

[eric343]

I don't think that your thread was closed because the sponsors didn't like it; I think it was closed because it was interpreted as an ad.

To the best of my knowledge, Jude would never give /any/ advertiser editorial power over the main/general forums.

 

[jude]

[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by Fixup As the poster of the thread in concern, I respect the rules (as long as they are clear) and any decision made by head-fi staff and modulators. I posted the pictures because I had seen similar posts, and I could not help myself of sharing the new amps I developed and love to see what people would say about them. I did not thought advertising (no need and no interest, really). If needed, I would have simply paid someone to post the pics for me. As you can see, I did not post any commercial words afterwards and kept my talk stricktly on technical issues. As already mentioned earlier, it is great to have a place for designers and users to talk. I liked very much the talk we had with Dan Wilson from Etymotic about a year ago, even though Dan and I had many differences. The fruit of that talk was the ER6. Jude, I agree with you that this forum should still allow the talk between designers and users. However, the line between a product and a pre-product is hard to define. I never think my amp is really a commercial product but a fomat for a hobbiest to offer the best he or she could offer and to boost the technology. I have been and will be always improving it. Because my amp is a "product" and thus I can no longer talk about it technically, this will hurt your members and this forum. Looking at how many viewers the thread has got within just a month, you'll know how much people liked this type of discussion. Such attraction the thread has draw to this forum, is not what $$$ can do. I fully understand your worries and your action. Even though I did not post any commercial content in that thread, it has gone so wild that some business people might go even far beyond. You ought to stop somewhere and my explosive thread ought to be the lucky one If a thread did violate the rule of this forum, then it deserves being blocked. But, if it is blocked in fear of the unhappiness of the sponsors of this forum, then I'd say its not fair and don't worry. People come here to see what they want to see, not just what the sponsors want them to see. Is the most popular thread not the one people want to see? If people can no longer see what they want to, that's a real problem to a website or any type of media. I believe, if this forum has more threads like the one that get thousands times of viewing, people, including manufaturers, will be more willing to pay you to come here.

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Fixup,

Your post post that opens the thread in question was an ad, at least as I define it. See, even if you posted that as a DIY'er, it's still an ad because you simply posted photos of something that you happen to sell (three words from your site to drive this point home...."Add to Cart").

That is what makes that thread-opening post of yours an ad.

If someone built a version of your amp and posted a bunch of photos of it, and this person had absolutely no intention of selling that amp or versions of it for a profit, then that would be allowed.

Now, can you discuss the technical aspects of your products? Yes, absolutely -- if people ask you technical questions about your product, that would begin a technical discussion of your amp. Your thread was closed largely because of that opening post, and because we made a decision to crack down on commercial ad-type posts, because they're becoming more common, and we ended up banning someone for it after repeated warnings.

As far as engaging in technical discussions with the community, Joseph Lau does this all the time. Do you see me deleting posts by him? No. And guess what....Joseph Lau is not a sponsor, and he has had fewer posts deleted/edited than either Jan or Tyll. And, as you pointed out, Don Wilson from Etymotic also participates in technical discussions here from time to time. I very much enjoy reading the exchanges I've read between Joseph Lau and the community (and also Don Wilson, Jan, Tyll, Chris Hoff of BPT, Alex Nikitin of Creek, etc.).

I know the similar post you were referring to in your post above was Jan's Pre-Head one. That thread has been locked, too. And I think that's an example that I didn't create Head-Fi with the purpose of appeasing sponsors. If sponsorship was my primary concern, we'd have a lot more sponsors than we have now, as many companies have by now shown interest in sponsoring Head-Fi. And we're working on being able to accommodate more sponsors, but Neil and I just haven't had the time to finish the improved sponsor infrastructure. But, again, if, as you put it, my intention was to simply allow the members of Head-Fi to see "just what the sponsors want them to see," why would there be a DIY forum here at all? I mean, isn't encouraging people people to build their own stuff maybe sort of what at least two of the three sponsors here (and certainly the biggest sponsor) would not want?

C'mon, Fixup, you've been here since June 2001, the month Head-Fi was founded. Can you honestly say that these forums have been shaped according to the preferences of the sponsors? If so, explain the announcements on the front page that consist, in large part, of announcements by non-sponsors. If so, explain why the product reviews consist mostly of products of non-sponsors. Your suggestion isn't fair, as I see it, nor is it accurate.

Just ask the sponsors (well, at least Tyll and Jan, as FreeSystems doesn't post here) if they've ever had their posts edited or deleted by me (they have, and definitely more than once each). Again, Jan's Pre-Head thread was closed, too. And I do recall a fairly hot issue from earlier this year, or late last year (I can't remember when exactly), in which one of Jan's posts was deleted outright. Jan is a sponsor.