What's the difference between a normal amp and a headphone amp?

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tosehee /img/forum/go_quote.gif pp312. Get a $100 DIY amp for your speaker and headphone. It'll meet your needs pretty darn good from your description.

Not sure I understand. What makes you think I can DIY? In any case I already have two deluxe Cmoys and a Muse dac/amp. I've also owned an LD 1& an LD V.

(Actually, what makes you think I have speakers?)

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnwmclean /img/forum/go_quote.gif pp312, fair enough your entitled to your opinion, although from reading several of your posts and not just this thread, you don’t seem to speak from any experience with higher end gear. Just remember it’s the small advances in the higher end realm that eventually trickle down and benefit the mid-fi sector. Sure we could all become complacent and build to an “adequate” standard, but then you’d have nothing to complain about.

If you read my posts carefully you'll see that I never comment on high end gear. In fact I usually say "..unless you're prepared to spend thousands." I have no experience of spending thousands nor intend to have any even if my rich Uncle dies. In any case most queries have to do with the $100 to $500 bracket, which is where I do have some experience, and where my experience has taught me that people--not just newbies--too often overlook the possibilities inherent in good integrateds/receivers due to the myth propagated here that these all incorporate horrible-sounding "afterthought" headphone jacks. They don't, and many treasures are going undiscovered.

Your second paragraph would only relevant if I condemned all high end gear. People are of course entitled to spend their money where they please without my approval (see note), and no doubt if one spends sufficiently and wisely great satisfaction may be had up there in those heady heights. So let those small advances happen, I say, and let them trickle down to where most of us live. The sooner the better.

As for me having nothing to complain about, was I complaining?

(Note: I'd dearly love to control everybody at all times, but I just can't be everywhere at once).

 

[tosehee]

I own and owned many receivers in the past above your price range, and they are all handidly beaten by woo6 which costs 1/2 of the price or more.

I guess we all hear differently

 

[XXII]

.

 

[googleborg]

ha, am flattered i am definitely in the 99% of listeners bit - just opened up my amp, here's some pics of a NAD c320bee inside for anyone into circuit board pron

power supply board
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/a...e/DSCF0579.jpg

birdseye shot of what i think is the power amp section
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/a...e/DSCF0575.jpg

sideways shot of preamp bit? and things
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/a...e/DSCF0572.jpg

speaker output and what i think could be the NAD 'soft clipping' stuff & headphone resistors?
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/a...e/DSCF0568.jpg

i'm not very clued up on electronics at all, but it seems there's a 5wire white belt leading from the speaker outputs to the headphone socket, i guess this is 3 wires for the headphone out and 2 wires to activate the relay to mute the speakers when headphones are inserted.

there are some big blue six band resistors too, i guess these attenuate the speaker signal to headphone level? if that is the case then i have an entire amplifier driving my headphones? (i am using a £14 pair atm, have some hd555 arriving today i hope!). I don't really understand impendance, i know that my amp likes to drive 8ohm speakers like my mission 32i, and my new headphones (hd555) are "nominal 50 Ohm", which i guess means about 6 times less power into them or something, i really don't know.

my not knowing much leads me to be so warey about all this, i would be basing my decisions on blind judgement and faith, and i really don't want to pay for something i already have.

in the spirit of audiophilia, i guess i could upgrade those resistors (i am pretty decent at soldering, even though i know jack about electronics, ha!) for literally the cost of a can of beans. I see no "cheap nasty" opamps in the entire amp, it all seems to be "discrete" like those tiny graham slee headphone amps that sell on ebay for hundreds :/ so the headphone socket may be "an afterthought" but the amp behind it certainly isn't.



Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif My God, here's a man still posting on HeadFi who appears to have retained some semblance of sanity! The answer to your question, and the OPs for that matter, is that a good integrated like your NAD (which I've owned and used with numerous headphones) will be perfectly adequate for most headphones and 99% of listeners. Never imagine if you're enjoying the sound from your integrated or receiver that a headphone amp must sound better because it was made expressly for headphones. It may, but just as likely it won't unless it cost lots and lots of money, and even that's no guarantee. People talk about some headphones needing lots of current or whatever, but in what way will a well-designed amp like yours lack current or anything else feeding headphones? Can you imagine the NAD running out of steam, or leaving your phones underpowered? Won't happen. And as for the oft-stated argument that the output impedance of phone jacks on integrateds can affect the frequency response of phones, in theory it can, but in practise I've never heard the effect, even with low impedance phones (the most touchy). The only time I've noticed a definite mismatch is in trying to drive a 595 from a CMoy (nothing wrong with the amp, sounded great with a 650, but didn't like the 50ohm 595). So there you have it. That's my view of the situation and no doubt it will displease many, as always. There's only one more thing to say: I wish I had double glazing.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by googleborg /img/forum/go_quote.gif there are some big blue six band resistors too, i guess these attenuate the speaker signal to headphone level? if that is the case then i have an entire amplifier driving my headphones? (i am using a £14 pair atm, have some hd555 arriving today i hope!). I don't really understand impendance, i know that my amp likes to drive 8ohm speakers like my mission 32i, and my new headphones (hd555) are "nominal 50 Ohm", which i guess means about 6 times less power into them or something, i really don't know. my not knowing much leads me to be so warey about all this, i would be basing my decisions on blind judgement and faith, and i really don't want to pay for something i already have. in the spirit of audiophilia, i guess i could upgrade those resistors (i am pretty decent at soldering, even though i know jack about electronics, ha!) for literally the cost of a can of beans. I see no "cheap nasty" opamps in the entire amp, it all seems to be "discrete" like those tiny graham slee headphone amps that sell on ebay for hundreds :/ so the headphone socket may be "an afterthought" but the amp behind it certainly isn't.

You're correct that the whole amp is driving your phones through resistors (and don't even consider putting a soldering iron anywhere near them). I believe the headphone output impedance of NAD amps is 220 ohms, which is typical. When your 555s arrive you'll find they sound just fine, and you can forget worrying about impedances. Most commercial amps are designed to drive a wide variety of impedances without problems; your only concern will be how satisfied you are with the sound. Generally speaking your 555s will not sound better than through the NAD amp; it's characteristic sound (warm, slightly rolled off treble, very true midrange) suits the slight brightness of the 555 very well. Later, if you decide to move up to still better phones, you may bump up against the NAD's limitations and wish to upgrade, but that point comes much further along the path than most posters here would admit, particularly if you move to a high impedance phone like the 650, which is relatively impervious to output impedance. The real reason for buying a particular amp should be to suit the characteristics of your phones, like buying a bright, incisive amp to break through the 650 veil, or something warm to counteract the 701s slight sterility.

For now, just listen and enjoy.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by XXII /img/forum/go_quote.gif .

I entirely agree with this post.

 

[googleborg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif For now, just listen and enjoy.

oh i will

"warm, slightly rolled off treble, very true midrange" exactly how i'd describe the sound too.

some more pics i just took with a torch shining through the pcb for anyone who's interested (hello google search results!)

left channel resistor traces
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/a...e/DSCF0587.jpg

right channel resistor traces
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/a...e/DSCF0586.jpg

back of main pcb
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/a...e/DSCF0582.jpg

 

[Mannymax]

This is a very interesting thread, up until a few days ago, i was listening to my new AKG 702"s via a QED MA30(not an amplifier)

http://www.superfi.co.uk/images/MA30sm.jpg

through my Nad 372 integrated amp rated at 150 wpc and was really impressed with the sound i was hearing, Basically, the MA30 hijacks the speaker out at the back of the amp via the speaker wires and into the MA30, the sound had everything from top to bottom, so much grip on everything, surely listening to headphones could not get any better than this !!!

Well, that was when i joined headfi and started having a read through the various threads praising various dedicated headphone amps, to cut a long story short, i took the plunge and ordered a Heed Canamp, it arrived two days ago, i let it warm up for a good while and had a listen, well, i would love to say i was blown away by the sound, but to say i was disappointed would be an understatement, the sound was extremely inferior to what i had been hearing from the NAD, on a scale of 1 to 10, i would give the Can Amp 5 and the Nad 9.

In the Heed Can Amps defense, they recommend 72 hrs burn in time and i have not reached this at the moment, so can not make a decision yet as the amp has not reached its best, so we'll see what happens sound wise.

I posted a similar thread asking if anybody on here had used the MA30, But no one had, the only replies were from other members pointing me in the direction of a decent headphone amp.

So again, has anyone on here had any experience with the MA30?

 

[googleborg]

nope, but it's almost exactly what i'd like

heed canamp is one of the amps i looked at that made me wonder what exactly headphone amps did that a good integrated cannot do. It costs more than a second hand c372, which is one hell of a nice amplifier, but inside it's...well, there's nothing much in there at all. Look inside a nad c372 and...it's beefy. class a preamp, massive toroid, heatsinks galore, etc, all that to drive a headphone, no wonder it sounded great

Now i know, thanks to this thread+me opening up my amp and examining the traces (as posted), my headphone out is just a resistor line from my speaker outputs, the only reason i'd get a headphone amp is to drive headphones that didn't match my c320bee, as pp312 suggested.

Previously, as per all the hype around headphone amps, i'd thought my headphone out was powered by a tiny little crummy opamp - even though it sounds great - but it's not.

i've owned a single headphone amp myself when i had a NAD c350/audiolab 8000p combo, a tube thingy some time ago, and using grado sr325i i could not tell the difference between the headphone socket and the valve amp, which gutted me at the time cos the amp and headphones were not cheap at all. not to mention it was valve vs transistor :/

i could certainly use one of those MA30 things though as a movable headphone out/volume control, if they are sold anywhere

 

[eertelppa]

What is the difference between a zana deux and a melos? Probably right off the back that's like asking whats the difference between grado and sennheiser and you are thinking what a STUPID question. That's not what I am asking though, I am just curious on the type of amp it is I guess would be my appropriate question.

Little confused on all these different components (time and research will probably solve that though). I am under the impression there are mono-blocks, pre-amps, amps, power amps, headphone amps with built in pre-amps, phono-stages and others I guess.

Is there a way I can discern that answer for myself in the future. I know the obvious like different companies and all that but, like the differences in components.

I assume the zana deux is a headphone amplifier with a built in pre-amp. Is the melos the same as that except just a different company, sound, build, look, quality, and all that?

Is it right for me to assume that they are both headphone amplifiers with built in pre-amps?

I guess for every component labeled amplifier I could just research the model in question or doubt and solve the problem myself.

Thanks, I will go do some research.

austin

 

[Sainka]

I needed an amp for my ad700s for playing halo and mw2 on my 360, so i went to a local music store and bought a mic preamp xenyx made by behringer. It is great and also alows me to play my ipod while listening to the game and the people in the game talk. It has been pretty cool. I am posting this to see peoples comments, and to see if the forum thinks i made a good decision or a bad one, since i am basically using a mic pre amp as a headphone amp lol..

 

[Ninkul]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I entirely agree with this post.

Thank god, I thought I was the only one that thought so :\

 

[Mannymax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by googleborg /img/forum/go_quote.gif nope, but it's almost exactly what i'd like heed canamp is one of the amps i looked at that made me wonder what exactly headphone amps did that a good integrated cannot do. It costs more than a second hand c372, which is one hell of a nice amplifier, but inside it's...well, there's nothing much in there at all. Look inside a nad c372 and...it's beefy. class a preamp, massive toroid, heatsinks galore, etc, all that to drive a headphone, no wonder it sounded great Now i know, thanks to this thread+me opening up my amp and examining the traces (as posted), my headphone out is just a resistor line from my speaker outputs, the only reason i'd get a headphone amp is to drive headphones that didn't match my c320bee, as pp312 suggested. Previously, as per all the hype around headphone amps, i'd thought my headphone out was powered by a tiny little crummy opamp - even though it sounds great - but it's not. i've owned a single headphone amp myself when i had a NAD c350/audiolab 8000p combo, a tube thingy some time ago, and using grado sr325i i could not tell the difference between the headphone socket and the valve amp, which gutted me at the time cos the amp and headphones were not cheap at all. not to mention it was valve vs transistor :/ i could certainly use one of those MA30 things though as a movable headphone out/volume control, if they are sold anywhere

Well, all i know is the QED MA30 is now discontinued, but there must be something similar out there somewhere, my one was £50 new, so secondhand you may get one for next to nothing.

PS another day of burning in on my Canamp and the sound has appeared to have changed a little bit, however, only had a quick listen and it was pink floyd, that album can sound good on the worst of systems.

 

[johnwmclean]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you read my posts carefully you'll see that I never comment on high end gear. In fact I usually say "..unless you're prepared to spend thousands." I have no experience of spending thousands nor intend to have any even if my rich Uncle dies. In any case most queries have to do with the $100 to $500 bracket, which is where I do have some experience, and where my experience has taught me that people--not just newbies--too often overlook the possibilities inherent in good integrateds/receivers due to the myth propagated here that these all incorporate horrible-sounding "afterthought" headphone jacks. They don't, and many treasures are going undiscovered. Your second paragraph would only relevant if I condemned all high end gear. People are of course entitled to spend their money where they please without my approval (see note), and no doubt if one spends sufficiently and wisely great satisfaction may be had up there in those heady heights. So let those small advances happen, I say, and let them trickle down to where most of us live. The sooner the better. As for me having nothing to complain about, was I complaining? (Note: I'd dearly love to control everybody at all times, but I just can't be everywhere at once).

OK fair enough, I had a look on the map, Gorokan’s a nice part of the world. I might have to chuck the Beta22 and HD800 in the car, come up and give you a taste of the sweet life

You just let me know pp312.