[b17m4p]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif Dealers HAVE adapted. They mostly now do custom home theater installs and don't really deal with 2-channel audio much. And that is a DARNED SHAME.

I think I'm seeing some adapt in different ways. I think some of the respected online retailers are sortof trying to fill both roles. They find ways to cut the costs by not hiving prime retail space etc., so the costs are on par with anything else online, but you can actually also drive up to their place if its reasonably local for you and hear things. I'm pretty sure I saw something on moon audios website about how you can do this with them - I didn't pay that much attention since they're not local to me. But if more places were to transition in this way chances are many of us would have access to such a dealer locally.

 

[ArmAndHammer]

I wish I had a dealer that I could buy from. I am limited to buying online only. There used to be a high end audio store in a town about an hour from me but they have closed up some time ago before I started becoming interested in Hi-Fi.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmAndHammer /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wish I had a dealer that I could buy from. I am limited to buying online only. There used to be a high end audio store in a town about an hour from me but they have closed up some time ago before I started becoming interested in Hi-Fi.

And THAT, dear readers, is what will happen if people only go to local dealers to audition, and don't actually buy there. No more stores to listen in, period.

Think that isn't real? Google "Tweeter Bankruptcy". And heck, that wasn't even truly high-end. Just "higher-end".

 

[Orcin]

Ok, I'm sorry but I just can't stay away from this thread - try as I might.

I wonder if the people who are defending the audio dealers in this thread are the same people who advocate buying two different headphones from online sellers with the intent of sending the one they don't like back? I have seen that advocated time and time again on this forum, and there is no public outcry against that.

Isn't that immoral? Stealing? The devil's work? What's the difference? It's all about intent, right?

And what about the sellers on the Head-Fi "For Sale" forum who say, "It's still within the warranty period and I have the orignal receipt. So you can have the rest of the (non-transferrable) warranty." I am not talking about manufacturers that offer a transferrable warranty. I have seen this done with IEM's. Actually, I was trying to sell a pair of UE super-fi 5's and competing against someone who was offering this scam. Where's the indignation about that common practice? That is immoral and stealing also.

Or how about this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif www.tubeworld.com You will need to read up in the fourms about tube rolling with the specific amp you get. There are lots of places to get tubes, I like to buy them on ebay, but tube world is a good place to start, lot of usefull information. Also you will want to find out what kind of tubes go in your prospective purchase and go to tube world and see how many choices you have and what the tubes cost, this information needs to be factored into your purchasing decesion. Then when you find some tubes you want, go to ebay and search the internet for the best prices.

Go to Tube World for your info and buy it cheaper somewhere else. I guess that's ok, because it is not a brick-and-mortar store getting screwed?

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wonder if the people who are defending the audio dealers in this thread are the same people who advocate buying two different headphones from online sellers with the intent of sending the one they don't like back? I have seen that advocated time and time again on this forum, and there is no public outcry against that.

At least in my case, I also believe that the above is inappropriate behavior.

 

[Aura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Don't "rip" or "burn" or whatever the **** it is you kids are calling it these days in order to convince yourself it isn't stealing.

About as cliche of a critical statement as I've ever heard.

Anyhow, simply based off of ethics, I can see the dilemma of demo'ing and not buying. That being said, if I were in the business, I would have handled it the same way Orcin has. Every customer can be potential buyer, you just have to find the exact measure of how to get across to them. Dealers need to get innovative and not dwell on lack of ethics, because it won't change (as Yikes has alluded to).

 

[Aimless1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif And THAT, dear readers, is what will happen if people only go to local dealers to audition, and don't actually buy there. No more stores to listen in, period. Think that isn't real? Google "Tweeter Bankruptcy". And heck, that wasn't even truly high-end. Just "higher-end".

Just lost the last decent higher end dealer in West Michigan. People would go there for advice, then either buy online, or worse, pay the same price at B**t B*y. Can't say as I understand the last concept, but it happened .. alot.

I have stayed away from this thread because I support local businesses whenever I can. I'd rather go to the local hardware store where I see the same good people every time and pay more than I would to go to the local big box stores. I like the relationships, the great advice, the extraordinary service and I especially like keeping the money local. I also believe I actually save money in the long run because I choose to listen to their advice and often spend less by buying an item that does the job for me, not some silly internet recommendation that is the latest and greatest.

Same with my audio gear. I prefer to shop locally and this is how I built my home audio system. It's not everyone's cup of tea but it suits me and what I like perfectly. How nice to be able to audition gear until I got exactly what I needed.

Orcin, you're right. Stealing is stealing. Call me old school, but if someone reports online that they're buying two headphones and returning the one they don't like, they're not going to get my business when they sell on the forum. How could I ever believe what they tell me?

But off my soap box. For some of us, dealers will continue to offer a better value and a better audiophile experience. For others, it will always be about low $$$ today without considering long term costs. Most will be somewhere in the middle. Guess you know which I choose.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by b17m4p /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think I'm seeing some adapt in different ways. I think some of the respected online retailers are sortof trying to fill both roles. They find ways to cut the costs by not hiving prime retail space etc., so the costs are on par with anything else online, but you can actually also drive up to their place if its reasonably local for you and hear things. I'm pretty sure I saw something on moon audios website about how you can do this with them - I didn't pay that much attention since they're not local to me. But if more places were to transition in this way chances are many of us would have access to such a dealer locally.

That's easier said than done. Running an online store and running a brick and mortar store are VERY different beasts. Most people that try this fail and eventually come to the realization that they need to pick one or the other.

 

[ktm]

You can be online and have a real store, but dealer restrictions set in place
by the big guys(Rega, Linn, extc.) can restrict pricing and online sales.
I know of some places that can't sell new stuff online, but will sell
demo and used stuff online, which suits me fine. I like dealers, but
not so much that I won't look for a cheaper price. The dealers aren't the
ones screwing it up, it's the guys that make the audio equipment.
I know a local music shop owner that was mad because to be a Gibson dealer,
he had to carry a standard set of "stocked items". Many of those items were
crap he could never move out the door. And the really good stuff was
limited on quantities. Then you could go to Gibson's direct online store,
and buy some stuff cheaper than the dealer could get it for.
These challeges I'm sure are simular to what audio dealers have to
put up with.
I tend to buy from dealers I like. The same for autos.
People that piss me off don't get a return visit, even with good pricing.

 

[Yikes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok, I'm sorry but I just can't stay away from this thread - try as I might. I wonder if the people who are defending the audio dealers in this thread are the same people who advocate buying two different headphones from on-line sellers with the intent of sending the one they don't like back? I have seen that advocated time and time again on this forum, and there is no public outcry against that. Isn't that immoral? Stealing? The devil's work? What's the difference? It's all about intent, right? And what about the sellers on the Head-Fi "For Sale" forum who say, "It's still within the warranty period and I have the orignal receipt. So you can have the rest of the (non-transferrable) warranty." I am not talking about manufacturers that offer a transferrable warranty. I have seen this done with IEM's. Actually, I was trying to sell a pair of UE super-fi 5's and competing against someone who was offering this scam. Where's the indignation about that common practice? That is immoral and stealing also. Or how about this? Go to Tube World for your info and buy it cheaper somewhere else. I guess that's ok, because it is not a brick-and-mortar store getting screwed?

I'd actually bet that the people stating their support for local dealers are the ones that would NOT order two sets of headphones to choose one. That is not without asking the dealer if it is OK. On-line dealers have built in margin on most headphones that would allow them to do this. Ask them to do it on a low margin item (Like a Rega Turntable) and you'd have a different answer.

Still on-line dealers have their own set of problems. Personally I usually don't buy something that I haven't had a chance to audition, and when I do I keep what I purchased.

Using a Websites resources and not buying from them is not the same thing. Now if you called up and spoke to the owner for 1 1/2 hours and picked his brains then purchased elsewhere I'd say you were a scumbag.

As far as music goes; File sharing where the artist does not get compensated is stealing. I have NEVER done it. Hell, I don't borrow CD's and rip them. If I borrow a disc and I like it I buy it.

Although I use to work in the music industry (My Brother still does), so I am probably atypical.

What's the deal with bringing up the other scummy things that people do? Does a person suggesting that IF an item breaks Warranty fraud would be permissible somehow make all other wrongs permissible? People will always exhibit the occasional double standard. Just because someone does Y doesn't mean that it's OK to do X (or Y for that matter).

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif As far as music goes; File sharing where the artist does not get compensated is stealing. I have NEVER done it. Hell, I don't borrow CD's and rip them. If I borrow a disc and I like it I buy it.

Amen! There's a really warped sense of entitlement with the (mostly) kids that do this. I'm sorry if this sounds like age-ism, but out of all the people I know who do this, only one of them is my age (late 30s). Everyone else is in their teens or early twenties. I'm generally not one of those "Kids these days!" types, but this seems to be a generation gap, and a seriously troubling one.

 

[Orcin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif On-line dealers have built in margin on most headphones that would allow them to do this.

Oh really? They don't need more profit? I need to buy stock in such a place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif Using a Websites resources and not buying from them is not the same thing.

So people are not entitled to a fair return on their effort if they write it, only if they say it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now if you called up and spoke to the owner for 1 1/2 hours and picked his brains then purchased elsewhere I'd say you were a scumbag.

So if the dealer just hangs his headphones on a peg, and you walk in and listen, that's ok? What if the dealer walks up to you and asks if he can help you? Should you shoo him away to make it ok? What if he insists on talking to you? Or... are you not allowed to use his brick and mortar establishment that he pays rent and electricity on? People's time is not the only cost in a business.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif What's the deal with bringing up the other scummy things that people do? Does a person suggesting that IF an item breaks Warranty fraud would be permissible somehow make all other wrongs permissible? People will always exhibit the occasional double standard. Just because someone does Y doesn't mean that it's OK to do X (or Y for that matter).

No, I just don't understand why you don't call foul when you see these other things in play. They go on here all the time, yet no one ever posts in one of these threads to say how unethical it is.

I just want to know if you think those things are equally bad. You seem to have your own gray area where some are and some aren't. I don't see the difference. If you use someone's resources with the intent of not rewarding them with business, then it shouldn't matter if that person spent hours writing something on a website or 10 minutes making stuff up on their feet.

 

[Yikes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh really? They don't need more profit? I need to buy stock in such a place.

[size=small]Are you being purposely obtuse or is it that you know so little about business that you don’t know that it is generally acknowledged that as a dealer you need to maintain a certain margin to remain viable. The greater margin of certain products allows them to be discounted while still maintaining adequate margin. You can try and sell for more and make more money, but when everyone can find the lowest prices on-line dealers that attempt this end up losing the sale.[/size]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif So people are not entitled to a fair return on their effort if they write it, only if they say it?

Really? No extra effort was expended. Web based business know the score, they know that most web shoppers are price driven, so they had better have a competitive price.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif So if the dealer just hangs his headphones on a peg, and you walk in and listen, that's ok? What if the dealer walks up to you and asks if he can help you? Should you shoo him away to make it ok? What if he insists on talking to you? Or... are you not allowed to use his brick and mortar establishment that he pays rent and electricity on? People's time is not the only cost in a business.

You said it. If you use a store’s resources knowing that you have no intention of ever buying there you are in essence stealing from them. Nothing that you can say will dissuade me from having that opinion.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, I just don't understand why you don't call foul when you see these other things in play. They go on here all the time, yet no one ever posts in one of these threads to say how unethical it is.

I believe that you just did.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just want to know if you think those things are equally bad. You seem to have your own gray area where some are and some aren't. I don't see the difference. If you use someone's resources with the intent of not rewarding them with business, then it shouldn't matter if that person spent hours writing something on a website or 10 minutes making stuff up on their feet.

The difference is that a website is published on-line for mass distribution in the hope that some will purchase there. A Stores facilities are operated strictly for limited use by potential customers. If you use those facilities knowing that you are NOT going to purchase there you are by definition NOT a potential customer, therefore if you go in there and pretend to be a potential customer you are a scumbag.
I’ll tell you what; if you think that there is nothing wrong with using a stores resources when you know that you will not purchase from them next time you go into such a store tell them that you have no intention of buying from them. You won’t do this because you know it’s wrong.

 

[Orcin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif Are you being purposely obtuse or is it that you know so little about business that you don’t know that it is generally acknowledged that as a dealer you need to maintain a certain margin to remain viable.

Neither. It's called sarcasm. You can never have enough profit. I am CFO of a $500 million manufacturing company, so I do know a little bit about margins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif I’ll tell you what; if you think that there is nothing wrong with using a stores resources when you know that you will not purchase from them next time you go into such a store tell them that you have no intention of buying from them. You won’t do this because you know it’s wrong.

It is somewhat presumptous of you to tell me what I think is right and wrong. I see no problem with asking a dealer to let me listen to merchandise that they have on display for the purpose of customer demonstration. IT IS NOT STEALING! Leaving the store with the merchandise without paying is stealing. If you have a problem with understanding this, ask a policeman if they would arrest me for demoing merchandise without buying.

Letting me listen to a demo item costs the dealer nothing except their time, and I don't demand their time. However, I do have conversations with them if they wish because we share common interests. If they don't want me in their store for this purpose, I will gladly leave without incident. I have never had a dealer tell me to leave, and when I was an audio dealer I never told a potential customer to leave for this reason.

I would not ask a dealer to open a factory-sealed carton to let me demo something - that would be a burden on the dealer and would expose them to unnecessary inventory risk. But if the item is there on display for the purpose of letting customers audition it, why shouldn't I be entitled to listen to it? If I don't intend to buy the item anywhere ever, or I intend to buy it elsewhere, or I intend to buy it from the dealer and change my mind after the audition... all of these outcomes are the same. There is no difference to the dealer.

NO dealer expects to make a sale to EVERY single prospect that walks through the door. That notion is absurd. Dealers have product on display hoping to entice customers. Sometimes they win and sometimes they lose. It is how the game is played.

I have said before, and I will say again one more time... Demonstrating merchandise for potential customers is a privilege to the store owner, not a burden. It is an opportunity. Not every sale is closed. People might never intend to buy, but they might also change their mind. Any smart dealer would welcome the chance to demo gear for a potential future client, not discourage it.

Trying on clothes at a department store IS NOT STEALING! Listening to demo equipment at an audio store is not stealing either. Intent has NOTHING to do with it!

 

[Yikes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Neither. It's called sarcasm.

Then you should learn to either write more succinctly or use emoticons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am CFO of a $500 million manufacturing company, so I do know a little bit about margins.

Congratulations! ...... Wait there's a manufacturing company in the US

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is somewhat presumptous of you to tell me what I think is right and wrong. I see no problem with asking a dealer to let me listen to merchandise that they have on display for the purpose of customer demonstration.

That's not what I said, I know that you have no qualms about going in and acting like a customer. What I said is that you won't go in and tell the truth before hand; that you are not a potential customer, that if you decide to purchase the item in question you have every intention of buying it used or on line. It's not the same thing.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would not ask a dealer to open a factory-sealed carton to let me demo something - that would be a burden on the dealer and would expose them to unnecessary inventory risk.

Well it's good to know that you draw the line somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Letting me listen to a demo item costs the dealer nothing except their time, and I don't demand their time. However, I do have conversations with them if they wish because we share common interests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif But if the item is there on display for the purpose of letting customers audition it, why shouldn't I be entitled to listen to it?

Your sense of entitlement is obnoxious. Your belief that a demo doesn't cost them money is delusional. They might enjoy talking to you, but even that costs them money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I don't intend to buy the item anywhere ever, or I intend to buy it elsewhere, or I intend to buy it from the dealer and change my mind after the audition... all of these outcomes are the same. There is no difference to the dealer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif NO dealer expects to make a sale to EVERY single prospect that walks through the door. That notion is absurd. Dealers have product on display hoping to entice customers. Sometimes they win and sometimes they lose. It is how the game is played.

Who said that they expect to make every sale? and yes they demo products in the hopes of enticing customers, but once again: If you go into a store using the stores resources with the knowledge that you intend to purchase elsewhere you are EXTREMELY UNETHICAL or IMHO STEALING from them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have said before, and I will say again one more time... Demonstrating merchandise for potential customers is a privilege to the store owner, not a burden. It is an opportunity. Not every sale is closed. People might never intend to buy, but they might also change their mind. Any smart dealer would welcome the chance to demo gear for a potential future client, not discourage it.

I've said nothing about a dealers not demoing product. A dealer has to keep swinging away, hoping that the person they are helping isn't a Scumbag waisting their time intending to purchase the item elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Trying on clothes at a department store IS NOT STEALING! Listening to demo equipment at an audio store is not stealing either. Intent has NOTHING to do with it!

Actually, if you go into a store to try on an item with the intent of purchasing the item on-line cheaper you are being unethical, although to a smaller degree because you haven't waisted a salespersons time to the same extent. It's the INTENT that has everything to do with it.

I'm not surprised that you are a CFO.