[skiflyer]

I'm on the side of wasting a dealers time is unethical. Stealing I think takes the discussion too far... but that's neither here nor there.

Be practical about it. If that mode gets too prevalent you're putting people out of business and you don't get to take advantage of the free auditions anymore. You're only screwing yourself.

On the other side of the coin, I'm not going to feel obligated to pay a dealer because I walked in and got awful service. I'm also not going to feel obligated because I walked in and got phenomenal service. I set a margin that's worth it to me. It's significant at about 15-20% depending on the items I'm buying. If the online store is going to save me 25% I'm up front with the dealer and tell them, man, I really appreciate the help and I'll almost certainly be back for more, but do you know your supplier is distributing in such a way that I get a quarter off if I buy it online?

I think I've run into precisely two situations where markups at the dealer were greater than what I felt their services were worth. The first one I bought anyway because I wanted it NOW DAMNIT! The second one I also bought anyway because I told the dealer, and he told me why, and the reason was warranty based, and I verified, and he was right and that was worth it to me.

Anyway, your mileage may vary... but if you waste retailers time you're driving down the quality of service you and everyone else gets.

 

[Zadok]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktm /img/forum/go_quote.gif But a good dealer will make you fall in love with the gear.

I really agree with this. Sometimes, you don't want your own critical mind to be the only judge. There is this huge conundrum of expectations versus reality versus preferences when you perform research, read reviews, and then objectively evaluate a product.

Sometimes, all it takes is a good PERSONAL recommendation or a highly-emotional purchase of a product you were sold.

I had a pair of Bose triports for 3 years, and I was completely amped about them the whole time. That headband broke and fractured in so many ways, but I was so deeply in love with them that I lived with a duct tape headband. Why? Because I was SOLD on them.

I have obviously since moved on, however I would not trade the happiness I had by over-inflating their quality to myself. It sure beats perpetual criticism and grief.

 

[b17m4p]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I'm in grad school right now so I'm living with the best headphone rig I can afford; but eventually I would like to own an absolutely world class speaker setup and a dedicated listening room. I think for these things having a good relationship with a dealer one knows is honest and professional is indispensable. So I think personally I may start forgoing the online discounts for the benefit of building that relationship and of course in the immediate time scale more importantly the value of being able to make better choices about purchases.

I more or less thought the explanation for the distribution strategies was along the lines of what was outlined by other posters; but I wanted to hear it from some veterans.

 

[Orcin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by skiflyer /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm on the side of wasting a dealers time is unethical. Anyway, your mileage may vary... but if you waste retailers time you're driving down the quality of service you and everyone else gets.

The dealer's time is NOT being wasted! Why do you think that retailers run products on sale at ridiculously low prices? It is to generate foot traffic in their store. They are not doing it just to see how many things they can sell at little or no profit. Retailers pay a lot of money via advertising and loss-leader promotions for the simple privilege of having a qualified buyer in their establishment. The demo is an opportunity!!!

 

[Yikes]

There's nothing wrong with shopping and enjoying a stores resources. The unethical aspect is using those resources when you know that you will not buy from that dealer, even when it was the demo that sold you on the product.

If you hear about a model on-line, you've read reviews and everything seems positive. You have done some searches and you've found the best price on-line, you've even called dealers around the country and you know that brick and mortar dealers give at best a 10% discount whereas the best price from an on-line dealer is 20-30% off. If you then go to a local dealer to demo the product when you know that you will not be buying the product from them is extremely unethical. The same can be said if you go to Audiogon and find a used piece that looks interesting, you've read that it's good but you've never heard it. So you go listen to it at a local dealer then buy it used on-line. You are stealing from the dealer. The argument that the dealer gets the benefit of your foot traffic is extremely disingenuous. Customers that shop for extreme discounts on-line are seldom retail shoppers, they won't pay retail.

Put yourself in the dealers shoes. Customer A comes in and you spend a couple of hours demoing and talking about preamp Y. It seems to go very well, the customer seems to have really liked the preamp (He did). The customer says "I have to think about it." The customer leaves.

Six months later the same customer comes back in. You remember him and you think that he must have gone a different route. He's now considering new speakers. While doing your job (Talking with the customer about his system and what he's looking for) you discover that his system now has in it preamp Y which you had shown him six months before.

This story is not fictitious. It happens to every salesman in Audio. Sometimes multiple times with the same person (At this point we can't call him a customer nor even a prospective customer).

If I were to open a High End dealership at this point I would consider charging a demo fee. The demo fee would be deductible from a legitimate purchase. This would separate the wheat from the chafe.

I suppose the current state of the marketplace is the primary reason I don't work retail any longer. After a while I just got tired of being lied to by some of the people who came in for demos. Yes, Lied to. I even had a guy who when I discovered that he now owned the $10,000 Home Theater processor that I had shown him several months before told me that he had been given the Processor as a gift by his boss. BS

You might think that these experience are due to my attitude, you'd be wrong. I know dealers from around the country and they all tell stories such as these.

In the end it will mean the demise of the Local Audio Shop. People will be forced to buy based upon magazine and on-line reviews. The days of picking a component that you like and buying it and enjoying it will be over. People instead will buy on-line and hope that they'll like it. Many more components will be sold barely used because they don't meet the persons needs.

 

[Orcin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif The argument that the dealer gets the benefit of your foot traffic is extremely disingenuous.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, I am not being dishonest when I say that I was a manager of an audio store, and I welcomed people to come in my store to demo items when I knew that they were planning to buy an entire system from one of the two discount stores across the street. (There was no Internet in those days.)

It gave me an opportunity to use my superior salesmanship to convince them otherwise. If I had the customer in front of me, I could close them. Occasionally, I did steal the sale back. A few times I just matched the lowball price to build goodwill in the community. It got me repeat business that I could not have generated by a mailout or a newspaper ad.

Maybe you just weren't as confident in your sales skills as I was.

Retail is a competition. Customer traffic puts you in the game. I never liked being on the sidelines with a clipboard. I welcomed the chance to go into the game in the fourth quarter down 20 points and sling it around to try to pull it out in the final minutes.

I wasn't mad when someone demo'ed equipment and then walked across the street and bought it. I was mad when I saw someone walk out of there with a system and they hadn't been in my store. I wondered what I could have done differently to have made them try me before buying.

BRING ON THE DEMOS!!!

P.S. ALL potential, qualified customers are wheat. There is no chafe.

 

[Michgelsen]

What I always wonder, is how dealers think of customers they've never seen before. Do you treat every customer as a potential, future big spender? Or do you put them in boxes as 'probably not a big spender, but maybe', 'probably won't buy anything' or 'probably a one-time customer' and treat them accordingly?

I usually buy my stuff from my local dealer. The first time I came in, I probably was only sixteen years old and didn't have a whole lot to spend, but spent everything I had on my first NAD gear. Their customer service was, and is, outstanding. I had some problems, claimed my warranty, came back for more stuff. Still excellent customer service. When I was looking for a HD650, I searched the internet and spotted lower prices than theirs. I went listening and told them about the lower prices I had spotted. In the end I got a serious discharge and, although the price still was higher, I think it was fair that I bought it there. They were the ones with whom (is this correctly used?) I could demo the gear and because of their excellent customer service, I was willing to pay a little bit more.
I have also bought some second hand gear of the internet. I would have liked to audition it before, but didn't know where to do that. I feel it's wrong to go to some unknown dealer and audition something with the intention to buy it somewhere else. If I were to go to my 'usual' dealer to audition something I know I would buy somewhere else, I would feel okay if I did this once, but not repeatedly.

 

[Orcin]

You can't judge a book by its cover. If you are smart, you give everyone your best effort. When you are really busy, then you have to triage.

 

[Larry I]

Of course it is not illegal to go into a shop and pretend to be a potential customer in order to audition gear that one intends to buy on-line. It is however, unethical, and all the rationalizations about how one could be a future customer are just that -- rationalizations. The argument that so many dealers are "bad" and therefore deserve to be abused is even more craven.

A lot of tire-kickers go to dealerships with a bad attitude, give off a bad vibe, and are detected as not bona fide customers by any sales person worthy of that title; they expect, and usually get, an unpleasant sales experience.

I can go into several dealerships in my area and expect to be treated well because, if I audition and like the product, I purchase it from that dealer. I always get a good discount and I don't even ask for one (dealers are kind to repeat customers). I can always audition gear in my own system, and easily trade up. One dealer who represented two lines that had linestages I was interested in did not have either flagship models in his store. But, he was willing to get both models in (dealers have to buy their demo models from the distributor/manufacturer) on a handshake promise that I would buy one of them. I ended up buying the first one he got in, without his buying the other, because it worked well in my system.

I've become personal friends with a couple of local dealers. Through these dealers, a bunch of customers have also become friends and we help each other with setup/system maintenance and have fun with listening sessions. I've helped with a number of customer installations because I am pretty good at speaker set up. It takes a dealer several hours of trial and error to properly locate a pair of speakers, even when a systematic approach is used (this kind of service is another reason to go with a local retailer).

 

[earwicker7]

People who go to a dealer with the express purpose of trying out something they know will only be purchased online are the same spoiled brats that feel they have a "right" to stolen music/videos on the internet. Some people have no moral compass.

 

[dvse]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif People who go to a dealer with the express purpose of trying out something they know will only be purchased online are the same spoiled brats that feel they have a "right" to stolen music/videos on the internet. Some people have no moral compass.

Indeed it is not surprising that the people who defend audio dealers are also ecstatic proponents of the recording industry - they seem to believe that businesses have an entitlement to follow the same model in perpetuity, even once the environment has changed beyond recognition. Instead of adapting to the new landscape, they advocate legal restrictions, prohibitions and "morality" the result, of course, is a net loss for everyone.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvse /img/forum/go_quote.gif Indeed it is not surprising that the people who defend audio dealers are also ecstatic proponents of the recording industry - they seem to believe that businesses have an entitlement to follow the same model in perpetuity, even once the environment has changed beyond recognition. Instead of adapting to the new landscape, they advocate legal restrictions, prohibitions and "morality" the result, of course, is a net loss for everyone.

Well, I think I can pretty safely say you've never been a musician

.

Imagine whatever job you do. Now imagine not getting paid for it because someone else has a better "model" or whatever it is you're getting at. I have no love for the recording industry given the current state of music. But I have even less love for thieves who think they're entitled to free music at the expense of the people who put blood, sweat and tears into it... ie., the musicians. If you want free music, listen to the radio or the homeless guy on the corner who plays guitar. Don't "rip" or "burn" or whatever the **** it is you kids are calling it these days in order to convince yourself it isn't stealing.

 

[b17m4p]

^ uh oh

Dealers should adapt to a new climate. Not because they're wrong about people stealing their time being immoral; but because it's simply going to happen and being upset about it is just like shaking your fist at the rain. Thats also my opinion about the recording industry but thats neither here nor there.

 

[Skylab]

Dealers HAVE adapted. They mostly now do custom home theater installs and don't really deal with 2-channel audio much. And that is a DARNED SHAME.

 

[ktm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvse /img/forum/go_quote.gif Indeed it is not surprising that the people who defend audio dealers are also ecstatic proponents of the recording industry - they seem to believe that businesses have an entitlement to follow the same model in perpetuity, even once the environment has changed beyond recognition. Instead of adapting to the new landscape, they advocate legal restrictions, prohibitions and "morality" the result, of course, is a net loss for everyone.

??? What's that about? You buy music, either online one song at a time,
or get a CD. Copying for one's own use is ok. Copying for everyone isn't.
I don't care for either extreme. I believe it's fair to get paid for artist work.
I don't believe they should get paid over and over again If I change the music
format. Common sense should rule here, not damn lawyers.
Yes, I enjoy dealers. There are quite a few crappy ones. Then there are the
really great shops. If you go there during the week off peak, they are willing
to spin vinyl or play Cds and talk all day. I've had one run down selections of
the same artist on vinyl and CD at the same time, alternating between the
two on a system so a customer could here the difference in the media.
He fell in love with vinyl and bought a turntable. It amazes me how studios
somehow screwed up remastering to the CD format. The albums often
sound tons better, with some rare exceptions.
I also enjoy getting to hear different selections. Some of these places have walls of
old jazz and blues, along with 60's and 70's rock and folk.
I hate some of the "new" home theather shops. Worthless listening rooms,
full of some movie demo at airport loud levels. You just as well go to
the mall to the BOSE store.
Yes, I'm over 50. I know the world is changing. But is online shopping really
serving us as well as we think?