Yes. Every player and DAC I own is audibly transparent, which means to human ears, they all sound the same. If I bought a player that didn't sound the same, I would return it for a refund as defective, because I expect my equipment to perform to spec. I don't want it adding noise to the signal. I demand audible perfection.
I've had 8 iPods and three iPhones. They all sound exactly the same. I can say that because I've done line level matched testing on all of them. I'd be happy to give you $5 for your iPod touch though. I'm sure the "difference in sound" you hear from it wouldn't show up in my testing.
You know that old saying... "Opinions are like nipples, everybody has them. Some have firm points, others are barely discernible through layers, and some are displayed at every opportunity regardless of whether the audience has stated "I am interested in your nipples" or not."
Pardon my ignorance as I'm pretty new to audio gear, but I keep hearing comments like all sources and DACs are the same.
I own two phones, a Galaxy S4, A Sony Xperia Z and one DAP, a Fiio X1 2nd Gen.
I've been meaning to drop my Fiio DAP so I would only have one device with me, a phone.
Since all DACs and sources are the same, I don't know what kind of trickery Fiio has pulled off because when I volume match all the sources, the X1 sounds richer and less distorted.
I always test audio devices with a FLAC version of Miossec's song, A Montparnasse. At about 2:15 minutes into the song, different instruments and bass start layering. At this point both my phones distort (Both phones had their volumes well below max) and the instruments cannot be individually picked out.However, at this point also, my Fiio X1 keeps clarity and instrument separation and no distortion. Not only that, but the X1 is also pushing more bass.
I've done this with both the headphone out and line out using my ATH-M40x and ATH-LS70is with the same results.
So my question is, if all DACs and sources are the same, what kind of trickery is Fiio doing to give a cleaner, richer sound? Or are the components of these phones (other than the DACs) playing a part in poor playback quality?
What kind of headphones are you using? Could there be an impedance mismatch between your cans and the headphone out on your phones? My guess is that is your problem. Also, are you switching blind? It would be best to compare with line level matching and a switch box and a friend to help do the switching.
I did some googling and my guess is you're using IEMs or headphones with too high of an impedance rating. Your Filo can handle higher impedance ratings than the phones can.
What kind of headphones are you using? Could there be an impedance mismatch between your cans and the headphone out on your phones? My guess is that is your problem. Also, are you switching blind? It would be best to compare with line level matching and a switch box and a friend to help do the switching.
I'm using the ATH-M40X (35 ohms) and ATH-LS70is (11.5 ohms).
No, no blind switching, but the difference is not subtle. It's obvious and you can't miss it.
I don't have excellent hearing (slight hearing loss in my left ear) and the difference slapped me in the face. In fact, I noticed it while at work, busy doing something else and not paying attention to the song. It's that obvious.
I did further testing when I got home with both my IEM and full sized can.
It's kind of annoying as I really wanted to stop using my DAP and just use my phone which is a lot faster with a better interface.
I know it's anecdotal and hardly scientific, but while I do think most DACs sound similar, I don't think all sources do. There may be more to sound than just the DAC I guess.
The Galaxy S4 doesn't work well with very low impedance headphones. So your ATH-LS70is isn't the best to use with that. The Sony Xperia Z should work with 35 ohms, but it has a lower power output than other phones. There are a lot of weird enhancement modes too. Could you have one or more of those switched on accidentally? I googled and I couldn't find any mention of the sound quality of the Sony. All the reviews seem to skip that.
I can see why you'd just want to carry your phone. I had the same problem with carrying my iPhone and an iPod for music. I found a micro SD card reader that plugs into the lightning port on the iPhone and that gives me replaceable cards with 256 gigs on each.
The Galaxy S4 doesn't work well with very low impedance headphones. So your ATH-LS70is isn't the best to use with that. The Sony Xperia Z should work with 35 ohms, but it has a lower power output than other phones. There are a lot of weird enhancement modes too. Could you have one or more of those switched on accidentally? I googled and I couldn't find any mention of the sound quality of the Sony. All the reviews seem to skip that.
I can see why you'd just want to carry your phone. I had the same problem with carrying my iPhone and an iPod for music. I found a micro SD card reader that plugs into the lightning port on the iPhone and that gives me replaceable cards with 256 gigs on each.
Yeah, tons of 'enhancements' on both really, I tried switching them all off and even tried different players.
I thought about the impedance too, specially with the S4, which is known to have high output impedance, but I saw a review in What Hi-Fi? and they raved about the Xperia Z sound quality. But then again, I have no idea what the output impedance is on the Xperia. It could be rubbish with my IEM too.
@bigshot - I think you were on the money!
Your comment on power output got me thinking and I tested again with my ATH-M40X, but this time with lower volume (but still decently loud).
Guess what? I had a hard time telling the difference between my DAP and my phone!
So it looks like it was an issue with high output impedance, my low impedance IEM and rather poor power output.
I might even start using my M40X as my on-the-go set of cans with my Galaxy as my portable source!
I personally assume that DACs will usually sound the same because they tend to have dead flat response until far up in the trebles, really good fidelity measurements, and they get plugged into the same magnitude of load(somewhere in the few thousand ohm). so stability is easier to get when everything is pretty good and stable.
as soon as we leave that and talk about DAPs, we get into portable stuff with maybe significant power limits. we get into amp sections that could suck bad on some devices, and in any case, amps rarely reach the fidelity of a DAC. we get into the amp having to deal with a wide range of loads and not always handling them all the same way. so causes for audible differences are suddenly much easier to find and the likelihood of getting audible differences increases with it. putting all that under the rug just won't do.
and then of course there is how the headphone/IEM reacts to different source impedance. I can give you an IEM that will have several dB change in FR with even a small difference in impedance output from the DAP. I can give you an IEM so sensitive, all but the quietest DAPs will have an identifiable background hiss. so no everything will not always sound the same.
that said I also have even IEMs with high enough flat impedance and a reasonable sensitivity. those make most of my sources sound the same indeed once level matched. @bigshot uses such a headphone with his portable stuff, which vastly increase stability in the final signal so he'll just get audible differences less often thanks to that.
I mention IEMs because they're they're often the most annoying and unstable piece of gear we can own so they can offer more obvious variations.
what's wrong is to come up with "no ..... are ..... ", or "all .... are ....." kind of conclusions. not all gears are the same and anecdotes don't make a rule.
I'm not asking for any trust, as my opinions are simply my own. I'm expressing the fact that someone should keep their ears open and have fun listening to as much gear as they see fit.
Sorry but that's an obvious lie!! You are stating that DACs all sound different, have their own personality and you've even attempted to use a bunch of unnamed "Ph.D. Graduate engineers" to add credence to the nonsense which you're now trying to sell as "simply my own". Presumably you're used to getting away with lying/misreprsenting/misdirecting and packing your statements with wall to wall falacies but it's not going to work here, that's why we've got (and need) a "here" in the first place!
Every metal has it's own intrensic non-changeable quality which display their value in separation from the other metals. DACs are fun to explore for the same reasons.
Yes, EXACTLY the same reason from what I can see! Put a cheap DAC inside an expensively designed metal case, the more exotic or expensive the metal the better, put some expensive looking knobs on it, charge way more than it's worth and indeed, audiophiles will hear a "night and day" difference, even though the actual sound is identical to a cheap DAC ... and that's because it is a cheap DAC, just in a more expensive looking box!
Modern DACs designed for the best fidelity do all sound the same. Some DACs do sound different though, because they are not primarily designed for high fidelity, they're designed to sound different in order to differentiate them for other DACs, even though this means they are actually lower fidelity. None of this is exactly "breaking" news!
Some need more than one DAC from wanting to decode DTS. The various ways DACs interface with systems has become pretty confusing. There is the maximum bit-rate they can handle, the choice of inputs being Coaxial, optical or USB.
But many audiophile DACs don't decode DTS into 2 channel for headphone listening. This single issue becomes really important if movies are your thing.
Other requirements which may affect sound is if someone is looking for single ended RCA or ballanced outputs.
None of the above issues really concern themselves with the question of DAC amps, DAC implementation of DAC chips having effects on sound, though some think the choices matter.
Just get one thing that does the job. I just use an Oppo player. It plays everything. I don't have much use for something that can't play multichannel files in multichannel. I have no use for balanced outputs either. That's just trying to make things harder on yourself for no reason.
Glad my stumbling and bumbling around helped! I really don't know much about your particular phones and cans, but googling and asking the right questions usually leads to the answer.
Sorry but that's an obvious lie!! You are stating that DACs all sound different, have their own personality and you've even attempted to use a bunch of unnamed "Ph.D. Graduate engineers" to add credence to the nonsense which you're now trying to sell as "simply my own". Presumably you're used to getting away with lying/misreprsenting/misdirecting and packing your statements with wall to wall falacies but it's not going to work here, that's why we've got (and need) a "here" in the first place!
Yes, EXACTLY the same reason from what I can see! Put a cheap DAC inside an expensively designed metal case, the more exotic or expensive the metal the better, put some expensive looking knobs on it, charge way more than it's worth and indeed, audiophiles will hear a "night and day" difference, even though the actual sound is identical to a cheap DAC ... and that's because it is a cheap DAC, just in a more expensive looking box!
Modern DACs designed for the best fidelity do all sound the same. Some DACs do sound different though, because they are not primarily designed for high fidelity, they're designed to sound different in order to differentiate them for other DACs, even though this means they are actually lower fidelity. None of this is exactly "breaking" news!
Nope..............laughably only one Ph.D. Graduate Electronic Engineer. And only because I only know one. And he has a pretty amazing system which has been visited by many of the manufactures which retail their goods right here on Head-Fi. Amazingly one of the manufactures complemented his system as being one of the best he's ever heard. Me dropping names here? Well..... I don't feel the need to include the names or Head-Fi handles. Though I may ask them too next time I see them. If you think somehow I'm simply out to fabricate lies to prove my point to a bunch of strangers on line? Well...........................
It's not that big of a deal. Calling me a liar is though. It's simply a fact that there is a huge percentage of Head-fi that believe each and every DAC sounds slightly different. If you need me to submit names of others because you don't believe one single Ph.D.Graduate Electronic Engineer out there actually believes that DACs differ in tone, I don't know what to tell you? They of course exist here at Head-Fi, I'm sure you will meet some, though probably not spending time right here in SS?
Anyway:
I realize that much of SS is about all amps sounding the same, all DACs sounding the same and finally all cables sounding the same. And yes much of Sound Science believes that vinyl is inferior to digital and any digital implementation.....be it Coaxial, optical or USB all sound exactly the same.
Marketing from manufactures is super confusing. And yes, they put special cases around boxes of juice at the supermarket. The cases may actually work to make the products more appealing to consumers. Simply everything comes in nicer cases. Does it guarantee that the DAC sounds better? No. And it's no news that audio gear has been dressed up since the 1960s, possibly Henry Ford's DC radio collection was dressed up by the audio manufactures of the day?
Chips all sound very close to each other but every DAC has a slightly different style of amplifier section which brings the DAC signal to line level. When you combine the fact that some DAC chips sound warmer and some colder, and some up-sample which adds a sound to the signal, plus the added differences from the amp section of the unit.....finally you end up with different products sounding different.
Simply go to any of the new portable DAP threads where there are endless discussions about changing out operational amp chips and you'll notice it's a commonly known fact that each operational amplifier chip has it's own sound. Does every DAC on the planet have exactly the same amplifier section after the DAC output to bring the signal to line level? No.
It's a cool thing that audio can exist with two very different groups enjoying their gear. Even the folks that spend the mega bucks often have little scientific proof for what they are investing in. But what they have done with trial and error over all the years has allowed them to think they are getting slightly better sound quality than when they started.
Show me a test which proves the $300 bottle of wine tastes better than the bottles of wine from the drug store? You can't. That's because there is and will always be things beyond what can be quantified in a graph or chart.
Nope..............laughably only one Ph.D. Graduate Electronic Engineer. And only because I only know one. And he has a pretty amazing system which has been visited by many of the manufactures which retail their goods right here on Head-Fi. Amazingly one of the manufactures complemented his system as being one of the best he's ever heard. Me dropping names here? Well..... I don't feel the need to include the names or Head-Fi handles. Though I may ask them too next time I see them. If you think somehow I'm simply out to fabricate lies to prove my point to a bunch of strangers on line? Well...........................
It's not that big of a deal. Calling me a liar is though. It's simply a fact that there is a huge percentage of Head-fi that believe each and every DAC sounds slightly different. If you need me to submit names of others because you don't believe one single Ph.D.Graduate Electronic Engineer out there actually believes that DACs differ in tone, I don't know what to tell you? They of course exist here at Head-Fi, I'm sure you will meet some, though probably not spending time right here in SS?
Anyway:
I realize that much of SS is about all amps sounding the same, all DACs sounding the same and finally all cables sounding the same. And yes much of Sound Science believes that vinyl is inferior to digital and any digital implementation.....be it Coaxial, optical or USB all sound exactly the same.
Marketing from manufactures is super confusing. And yes, they put special cases around boxes of juice at the supermarket. The cases may actually work to make the products more appealing to consumers. Simply everything comes in nicer cases. Does it guarantee that the DAC sounds better? No. And it's no news that audio gear has been dressed up since the 1960s, possibly Henry Ford's DC radio collection was dressed up by the audio manufactures of the day?
Chips all sound very close to each other but every DAC has a slightly different style of amplifier section which brings the DAC signal to line level. When you combine the fact that some DAC chips sound warmer and some colder, and some up-sample which adds a sound to the signal, plus the added differences from the amp section of the unit.....finally you end up with different products sounding different.
Simply go to any of the new portable DAP threads where there are endless discussions about changing out operational amp chips and you'll notice it's a commonly known fact that each operational amplifier chip has it's own sound. Does every DAC on the planet have exactly the same amplifier section after the DAC output to bring the signal to line level? No.
It's a cool thing that audio can exist with two very different groups enjoying their gear. Even the folks that spend the mega bucks often have little scientific proof for what they are investing in. But what they have done with trial and error over all the years has allowed them to think they are getting slightly better sound quality than when they started.
Show me a test which proves the $300 bottle of wine tastes better than the bottles of wine from the drug store? You can't. That's because there is and will always be things beyond what can be quantified in a graph or chart.
So after 2 months of people debating, what I got is that either way even if all good DACs sound the same or slightly different volume matched, that the difference is so small that for most audio and music enthusiasts it isn't worth it for the debatable sound difference alone (somewhat similar to MP3 VS FLAC), and the biggest uses for a dedicated DAC is outputs and inputs and/or if your dedicated DAC has noticeable noise or hiss.
If this is correct then I personally do not want to get a dedicated DAC unless the DAC on the motherboard of my upcoming PC build is noticeably noisy. Thanks for the input everyone!
Nope..............laughably only one Ph.D. Graduate Electronic Engineer. And only because I only know one. And he has a pretty amazing system which has been visited by many of the manufactures which retail their goods right here on Head-Fi. Amazingly one of the manufactures complemented his system as being one of the best he's ever heard. Me dropping names here? Well..... I don't feel the need to include the names or Head-Fi handles. Though I may ask them too next time I see them. If you think somehow I'm simply out to fabricate lies to prove my point to a bunch of strangers on line? Well...........................
It's not that big of a deal. Calling me a liar is though. It's simply a fact that there is a huge percentage of Head-fi that believe each and every DAC sounds slightly different. If you need me to submit names of others because you don't believe one single Ph.D.Graduate Electronic Engineer out there actually believes that DACs differ in tone, I don't know what to tell you? They of course exist here at Head-Fi, I'm sure you will meet some, though probably not spending time right here in SS?
Anyway:
I realize that much of SS is about all amps sounding the same, all DACs sounding the same and finally all cables sounding the same. And yes much of Sound Science believes that vinyl is inferior to digital and any digital implementation.....be it Coaxial, optical or USB all sound exactly the same.
Marketing from manufactures is super confusing. And yes, they put special cases around boxes of juice at the supermarket. The cases may actually work to make the products more appealing to consumers. Simply everything comes in nicer cases. Does it guarantee that the DAC sounds better? No. And it's no news that audio gear has been dressed up since the 1960s, possibly Henry Ford's DC radio collection was dressed up by the audio manufactures of the day?
Chips all sound very close to each other but every DAC has a slightly different style of amplifier section which brings the DAC signal to line level. When you combine the fact that some DAC chips sound warmer and some colder, and some up-sample which adds a sound to the signal, plus the added differences from the amp section of the unit.....finally you end up with different products sounding different.
Simply go to any of the new portable DAP threads where there are endless discussions about changing out operational amp chips and you'll notice it's a commonly known fact that each operational amplifier chip has it's own sound. Does every DAC on the planet have exactly the same amplifier section after the DAC output to bring the signal to line level? No.
It's a cool thing that audio can exist with two very different groups enjoying their gear. Even the folks that spend the mega bucks often have little scientific proof for what they are investing in. But what they have done with trial and error over all the years has allowed them to think they are getting slightly better sound quality than when they started.
Show me a test which proves the $300 bottle of wine tastes better than the bottles of wine from the drug store? You can't. That's because there is and will always be things beyond what can be quantified in a graph or chart.
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what did he get a Ph.D in?