What's a good budget/shortlist for getting into vinyl?

[bigshot]

That's a very pretty senitiment, but the sound of the cartridge and stylus you use make a WHOLE LOT more difference to the sound than the turntable, especially when it's one as simple and quiet as a Thorens. Perhaps you just need a new cartridge.

See ya
Steve

PS: "compare"

 

[acs236]

Fyi -- in my experience the Rat shack preamp was extremely noisy.

 

[bigshot]

I found that it's quieter running off the 9 volt battery than plugged into the wall. I don't know why though... I have a nice 70s preamp that I use now. I like to be able to control the level going into my computer.

See ya
Steve

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot That's a very pretty senitiment, but the sound of the cartridge and stylus you use make a WHOLE LOT more difference to the sound than the turntable, especially when it's one as simple and quiet as a Thorens. Perhaps you just need a new cartridge. See ya Steve PS: "compare"

I am using a Grado Statement Platinum cartridge that I installed a little less than a year ago.Perhaps I could upgrade to a better one and upgrade to a better tonearm.

 

[ssportclay]

What make and model of tonearm could I mount on my Thorens TD-160 that would give me the capability of blowing a VPI Scout out of the water?

 

[bigshot]

I'm afraid it's been decades since I investigated tone arm upgrades. I remember that there was an S shaped one called a "black widow" that was an extremely low mass tonearm, but I have no idea if they're still made.

Unless you're handy with tools, your first hurdle is finding a person to install the arm. Once you find them, do a search of the web for low mass tone arms and show them to your repair guy and see what he thinks would work best on your Thorens.

As for the sound of the cartridge, what is it missing in terms of sound quality? Does it sound thin? Or is it too detailed, revealing every tick in the record? Does it lack dynamics? Is the stylus in good shape? Have you tweaked the alignment lately?

I've never tried the high end Grados, but I haven't ever heard of anyone in that bracket going for Grado. They all like one particular vintage Shure model that isn't being made any more, moving coil Ortofons or high end Stantons. Grados are very well made and they track beautifully, but they aren't as known for being "audiophile quality". They're really better for their incredibly rugged DJ models.

I think you might do best to call the folks at KAB Sound and see what they suggest. The people at Garage-A-Records are great for most things, but I think KAB could give you better advice on high end gear.

http://www.kabusa.com

See ya
Steve

 

[ssportclay]

Thanks for your help but I believe the answer to the question is that no tonearm at any price will bring the Thorens DT160 up to the capability of the VPI Scout.It would probably take lots of money and lots of hair pulling frustration to even bring it to any where near a Music Hall MMF-5.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssportclay What make and model of tonearm could I mount on my Thorens TD-160 that would give me the capability of blowing a VPI Scout out of the water?

Steve is absolutely right that there havn't been that many technical advances in turntables since the 1980's. Conventional wisdom is that where things have moved on is in the use of various plastic composite materials for platters, instead of wood and steel to damp resonances and that there have been major advances in Tonearms and Cartridges.

The VPI Scout looks like a very nice state-of-the-art deck, employing a unipivot tonearm and a wood composite plinth.

Look a bit closer though and there arn't that many things about it that are so new. Unipivot tonarms were fashionable in the 1960's-70's when the vogue was for low mass. This design philosophy was all but swept away by the likes of the Linn Ittok, Alphason HR100 and Rega RB250 in the 1980's which unsurprsingly sounded better on the Linn LP12. Only the Naim Aro continuing research into unipivots.
There is a famous British Tonearm called the Hadcock which has been made since the 50's almost unchanged and is now again very much in vogue due to the trend away from suspended subchassis. What goes around comes around in Hi-Fi as well....

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/hadcock242_e.html

A much cheaper even older design that's still available is the Decca International which is many people's choice for the Lenco derived decks.

I have yet to experiment with unipivots but by all accounts they sound very fast and musical in the midrange but lighter at the frequency extremes.

For the rest the VPI looks like a conventional belt drive made out of woodchip with an acrylic platter. Not a whole lot different to a Rega Planar 3 for which acylic platters have been available for a while.

The Thorens TD160 is a classic design. I had one for a while and it's got a very springy suspension which needs careful levelling but really makes the music bounce along. It's amazing with percusion and very much in the style of a Linn Sondek with which it shares the same design heritage. I tried it with SME 3009 Series 2 and 3 and with Linn LVX tonearms.

It's main failings are in the lightness of construction in the plinth which make it sound a bit lightweight compared to my Thorens TD125 or a Linn Sondek. I wouldn't underestimate the TD160 though, it really is a capivating deck that makes you want to just listen to all your records which after all is it's purpose!
I prefer this over the Rega style which can sound a bit dour and grey hence the resurging fashion for unipivots to inject a bit of liveliness perhaps...

I would certainly go for upgrading it. Check out

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/olde...renstd150.html

Since this has been written there are a lot of small firms springing up on Ebay supplying bespoke new parts. Get a heavy wooden plinth in Oak or build one yourself. This will give it a much more solid foundation and work wonders foir the base. Also fit a Silicon platter matt which gives a much better focus to the sound.

Check out

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...787814008&rd=1

This guy also makes arm mounts for Linn / Rega and SME tonearms. I think the Linn LVX does go very well. You should be able to pick this up for 200USD 2nd hand and it will make a huge difference over the stock Thorens one. Mine came with the classic SME 3009 (another 50's design) which is great for classical and Jazz but doesn't really cut it with Hip Hop.

If you listen to modern music then the Rega RB250 is the most popular arm simply because it offers amazing value for money and outclasses most arms under 2000 dollars with a few tweaks. A lot of people say it doesn't work so well on suspended subcassis decks like the Thorens but I'm running the OL modded version on my TD125 and it sounds very good. The TD125 has a less spingy suspension but with careful levelling and on a solid shelf isolated from vibrations it should be fine.

A Thorens TD160 in modded form will take on anything new or old into the thousands of dollars. It's a very special deck. I wouldn't trade it in for anything less than a Linn Sondek, Thorens TD125, Michel Gyrodek, Technics SP10, Garrard 401... etc and you are talking serious bucks...

 

[ssportclay]

This is all interesting reading but vintage tables have no romance for me.I am a music listener,not a TT tweeker.The bottom line for me is how would a modified TD160 compair sonically side by side to a stock VPI Scout.I am not convinced that I would be saving any money by sticking with the Thorens.Sound per dollar is the bottom line.

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssportclay This is all interesting reading but vintage tables have no romance for me.I am a music listener,not a TT tweeker.The bottom line for me is how would a modified TD160 compair sonically side by side to a stock VPI Scout.I am not convinced that I would be saving any money by sticking with the Thorens.Sound per dollar is the bottom line.

My friend collects Thorens and Dual turnatables. They are nice, but personally, I don't think it is worth going through the hassle of trying to upgrade a vintage model. Even he is looking to get a Scoumaster.

Get a properly set up Scout and I don't think you will have any complaints. There is a reason their turntables are held in such high regard. I have talked to 3 different vendors who sell tables ranging from VPIs, Thorens, MMF, etc. and they all favor the VPIs. You may prefer the Thorens, but
you certainly won't go wrong with a VPI.

I'm not saying that you can't get a great sounding turntable using an older model, but unless you are nostalgic or like tweaking with equipment, why go through the hassle when there are great, new, affordable turntables available? Just my opinion. I ended up getting a Super Scoutmaster w/ Grado Statement.

 

[tanfenton]

Ssportclay, come on. You had to have known that a turntable up there in years--a suspended design no less--would need some work, not of the expensive kind but work nonetheless. If you're not a tweaker, get the Scout 'cause it requires as little brainpower to operate and maintain as a CD player (a CD player's longevity naturally being the bigger question).

You would be saving money buying the Thorens. Whether you like the sound or not should depend entirely on your experience with the device and have no bearing on the zillions of people popping up and recommending the Scout every day. I don't care for the TD-160, but that's life. The TD-320 was a better model from where I stand.

NGF

 

[kartik]

Scout! Scout! Scout! Scout! Scout! Scout! Scout! Scout! Scout! Scout! Scout!

The chants are getting louder! For simpletons like me the Scout was always the best choice. Todd mounted the unipivot and the cartridge for me, so all I had to do was play music. We had a minimeet shortly after and everyone felt it really performed well as a source (Analog or otherwise!).

 

[memepool]

Having not heard the Scout, I can't really be specific but in my experience a TD160 with a decent modern tonearm will compare very favourably with modern turntables like the Rega's which are in the same price bracket as the VPI over there.So I would say upgrade. This isn't such a big job as the Lenco rebuild which is full on tweaky.
Get a decent tonearm like the Linn LVX or the Rega RB250. These cost under 200USD 2nd hand for one in good condition. The link mounting board for the TD160 from that guy on Ebay is around 30USD. All you have to do is unscrew the old tonearm and assemble and mount the new one. It's pretty straightforward as the correctly measured mount is available.

Then get a Silicon platter mat also from Ebay for about 50USD.

Assuming the Thorens is on a good solid shelf isolated from vibration and correctly levelled it should be the equal of any new 1000 deck at this point but youv'e spent less than 1/2 of that.

Get a new bespoke wooden plinth for another 150USD again on Ebay and it will be the equal of 2000USD decks. Again for less than half the outlay.

Beyond this you have the Origin Live or Martin Bastin power supply upgrades for 800USD and it will take on all comers at any price.

The Thorens TD160 definiely has something. This is why there are so many people supporting it so long after it's demise.

Although for 1500USD the price of the new Scout, you could probably get something really serious 2nd hand which requires less upgrades like a Linn LP12 or a better Thorens, if you are willing to spend that much.

 

[kartik]

I just heard "Nothing else matters" on my scout. It was not a cleaned record and as such was full of pops and crackles, but the music was nothing short of astounding. The headphones vanished, the atmosphere was completely live and I've never heard this song like this before. I have heard this track umpteen times on my digital gear, but it just sounded so real it was unbelievable. For someone who didn't want to play the mix and match game, the Scout was and is perfect for me. To each his own. Nothing else matters.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssportclay Thanks for your help but I believe the answer to the question is that no tonearm at any price will bring the Thorens DT160 up to the capability of the VPI Scout.It would probably take lots of money and lots of hair pulling frustration to even bring it to any where near a Music Hall MMF-5.

Well, it's swell you've made up your mind. But it sure seems to me that I wasted my time trying to give you a good answer to your question and providing you with resources. Perhaps someone else will get some use out of it.

See ya
Steve

PS: IT'S SPELLED "COMPARE" NOT COMPAIR!