What's a good budget/shortlist for getting into vinyl?

[AndrewTosh]

Hey all,

I'm looking to get into listening to and collecting LPs. I'm more into the "romantic" aspect of it than the sound quality. I'm looking for a system that will make records sound good, but not go over the top as far as cost. That said, I'm not against spending a decent amount of money (up to $1k maybe) if it delivers noticeable and large increases in quality.

Where should I set my budget for a complete turntable/cartridge setup and phono pre? What components should I be looking at? I have no clue as far as turntables go, and for preamps I like the Bottlehead Seduction because I enjoy building projects. Otherwise I am pretty clueless.

I'll probably be using this with a speaker setup most of the time and Grado SR225s on occasion.

Thanks,

 

[bigshot]

You can get used turntables from the sixties and seventies for very little money, and many of them are built much more ruggedly than current turntables.

First you need to decide if you want direct drive or belt drive... A direct drive is generally stronger... able to handle the heavier weights of 78s, faster to start up and stop, etc. A belt drive might need a little push to get going, but once it's spinning it's very stable and quieter than a direct drive.

For new turntables, I'm told Music Hall makes the best bang for the buck. But for me, I prefer older ones. You can find them all the time at ebay selling for very little.

Dual made excellent direct drive turntables. The best ones I've found are the 1218, 1219, 1228, and 1229. These turntables have a 5% pitch adjustment and replacement parts like headshells are still being made. The advantage to these models is they are able to play 78s (with the proper stylus) as well as 33 & 45.

For a belt drive turntable, I recommend the Thorens TD-160 series. These were low end, stripped down, very simple turntables with great sound performance. They often require a little push to get started and the belts need replacing every few years, but they are wonderful sounding.

For a cartridge, I wouldn't recommend getting a really expensive one until you really need it. An Audio Technica with a conical tip costs about $20 and is fine for everyday listening. If you want something a little more detailed, try a Grado Green or Blue. I've had both moving magnet and moving coil cartridges, and I prefer moving magnets.

Phono preamps are very inexpensive. Radio Shack sells one for $15 that does the trick. If you want a little better quality, look for a used preamp fro the 70s on ebay. They all had phono inputs.

You should be able to put together a nice turntable rig for a few hundred dollars. Spend the rest on records.

Hope this helps.
Steve

 

[dwc]

and put some money aside for something to keep the records in once your collection gets going. All those "vintage" cardboard sleeves make extreme amounts of dust.

 

[bigshot]

That's a job for Bags Unlimited!
http://www.bagsunlimited.com/cart/browse.asp?cat=2

See ya
Steve

 

[memepool]

If you enjoy building things then definitely go for the 2nd hand option. There are loads of really amazing decks from the 50's-70's which can be had for very little these days.
As well as the Thorens TD150/160 check out Goldring / Lenco / Benjamin / Bogen badged Lenco decks which are stunningly well built. see here

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

It may look antiquated but that metal top plate it heavy gauge steel and underneath lurks a solid industrial grade motor of Swiss design and German manufacture. None of your flimsy DC motors / elastic bands / plastic and paper / wood pulp here...

This is seminal 60's engineering. It's an idler drive which is neither belt nor direct drive but a combination of both. A small metal idler wheel with a rubber tyre drives avery high mass steel platter on which your record sits .

These things were so over engineered that they are usually still in good working order. You need to strip it down and repaint it then build a new base for it out of wood. You also need to throw away the tonearm and buy a decent modern one from Linn or Rega. Then fit a decent Moving magnet from Shure or Stanton or whatever takes your fancy.

All of this is childs play compared to building a phono stage so it should be no problem. At the end of it you will have a machine which will kick the crap out of an modern deck this side of 2000USD and then some.


Check this audigon thread for more info.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/f...44493&read&3&4&

or since its gotten a bit long see this guys digest version

http://members.home.nl/fmunniksma/Lencotdl.htm

check out the pics of the decks thay have put together for a few hundred dollars based on these old machines.

 

[bigshot]

There is one thing that you need to take into condition with a turntable that uses an idler wheel... if it is left unused for a very long time, a dent forms in the rubber wheel causing a bump every rotation. It can be very difficult to get these wheels relapped. Always ask if the turntable runs smoothly before buying. Some people leave their turntable running constantly to avoid this.

Belt and direct drives don't have this problem.

See ya
Steve

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot There is one thing that you need to take into condition with a turntable that uses an idler wheel... if it is left unused for a very long time, a dent forms in the rubber wheel causing a bump every rotation. It can be very difficult to get these wheels relapped. Always ask if the turntable runs smoothly before buying. Some people leave their turntable running constantly to avoid this. Belt and direct drives don't have this problem. See ya Steve

Steve is right about the idler wheel. Ask if it's metal as these ones are usually in better order.

But check the links and you will see that spares and retreads are actually not so hard to get. There are many companies worldwide supporting these decks so I would seriously consider it. For the money nothing can touch them.

I have a Goldring-Lenco GL75 and it compares pretty well even in stock form to my Thorens TD125 which was a lot more expensive.

Idler drives can sound amazing. A recent Hi-Fi World (UK magazine) put a Garrard 401 ( celebrated 60's idler drive) up against the cream of the current British and German decks upto 1500UKP from Michel, Roksan, Origin Live and Audio Solid and it outclassed all of them.

The problem with idler drive wasn't so much the technology per se as the rudimentary plinths that people built for them at the time. It wasn't until Linn / Thorens / AR started making suspended subchassis in the 1970's that the importance of plinth designs was widely understood.

Seeing as how you can pick these up for under 100USD I think they are fantastic value if you are prepared to put in a bit of work.

 

[AndrewTosh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot Phono preamps are very inexpensive. Radio Shack sells one for $15 that does the trick. If you want a little better quality, look for a used preamp fro the 70s on ebay. They all had phono inputs.

I can't find the phono preamp on their website. Do they sell it in stores? If it is discontinued, are there other low-cost phono preamps that are "good enough"? I actually have a receiver with a phono input and a tape loop, that might work in the meantime, though it is pretty pointless to run it all the time just for the preamp.

I think I am going to buy the turntable in that eBay link. It does look well built and should be a fun project to upgrade.

Thanks again

 

[tennisets]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewTosh I can't find the phono preamp on their website. Do they sell it in stores? If it is discontinued, are there other low-cost phono preamps that are "good enough"? I actually have a receiver with a phono input and a tape loop, that might work in the meantime, though it is pretty pointless to run it all the time just for the preamp. I think I am going to buy the turntable in that eBay link. It does look well built and should be a fun project to upgrade. Thanks again

Radio Shack Phono Preamp

 

[bigshot]

A good site for rekkid luvvers is...

www.garage-a-records.com

They've got everything you need.

LKG Phono Preamp $27.99
http://www.garage-a-records.com/preamp.html

Pyle makes one too that you can usually find on ebay for around $25.

See ya
Steve

 

[ssportclay]

I have a Thorens TD-160 and it is an OK table at best.The newer tables are suppose to sound much better than any of the vintage stuff.Either the Music Hall MMF-5 or the Sota Moonbeam are the ones to look at if you are serious.If you want to spend less you will get less.My Thorens will be for sale when I am ready to upgrade.I have my eye on the VPI Scout.

 

[bigshot]

Your upgrade is going to make someone very happy! I've had
my TD-165 since around 1976 or so. It's a great turntable. The
simplicity of the design guarantees that it has one of the
quietest noise floors you are going to find. Make sure whatever
you upgrade to has a really good arm. That's about the only
area you are liable to be able to hear an improvement over the
Thorens.

See ya
Steve

 

[ssportclay]

I am afraid that the Moonbeam,Music Hall MMF-5,and VPI Scout will all easily outperform our aging Thorens tables in a rather bad way.It would be interesting to compair them all side by side.

 

[bigshot]

Aging Thorens is a very funny comment! Aside from some scratches on the dust cover, my Thorens is exactly the way it was when I bought it. This kind of thing doesn't age... It's so simple and well built, it'll be running when I'm long dead.

There haven't been guys in white coats researching how to make LP reproduction better since my "aging Thorens" was a baby. Turntables are no longer a hot item; so on the whole, the quality of them has regressed, not progressed. The only thing that has become more sophisticated is the sales pitch. Modern high end turntables are now sold like caviar... They have beautiful black shiny surfaces and brushed aluminum trim and fancy brochures filled with hyperbole, but inside, they're still just a simple rubber band driven platter. It doesn't take rocket science to make that work... all it takes is solid workmanship. The Germans certainly had that back in the sixties.

I'm sure the salesman at the high end audio store would like you to believe that brand spankin' new turntables with the massive markup over wholesale cost perform better than those "aged foreign" models selling for reasonable prices on ebay, but beyond a really good Thorens turntable, you're only going to find minute improvements. Even with a low end model like the TD 160 or 165, there isn't much room for improvement, because they are so simple in construction. Like I said, the only area that could be improved is to replace the tonearm with a lower mass one. I've never seen the need for that myself. There are significant quality differences between a nice simple belt driven transcription table and a direct drive DJ table, but that's a compromise based on an entirely different set of priorities.

But of course, if you prefer the shiny black and brushed aluminum and it makes you happy, feel free to spend too much on it.

See ya
Steve

P.S. "compare"

 

[ssportclay]

My thorens table has been very reliable since 1974 when I bought it.My biggest issue with it is that it sounds like a thorens table instead of getting out of the way and playing the music from the grooves.It would be interesting to compair the sound of these tables side by side.