[DrKC]

Unfortunately, the best tank in the world is still a rolling coffin on a modern battlefield. There are literally TONS of weapons specifically designed to take out tanks. You can thank the "Fulda Gap" scenario for that - the US spent many, many years coming up with weapons that would be used try to stop the massive Soviet armor from entering Western Europe through the Fulda Gap. My favorite is one I also worked on (but just on the periphery) - the "Brilliant Anti-Tank" (BAT) submunition that is dropped by the dozens from cruise missiles and bombs.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/atacms-bat.htm




There is no freaking way you could get me into a tank in battle - at least not against a modern enemy.

 
Did you use to work for Raytheon?
The company I used to work for developed a custom hybrid for BAT.  I developed the manufacturing flow and testing for it.  The project went cold for about 4 years and then went "hot" about the time I was leaving.  Didn't know if BAT finally got the DOD green light.
I ask because I thought Raytheon was the prime for BAT.
 
As for weapons made of metal - I'll take a Thompson 45 - just because.

 

[Hutnicks]

Barret M82 .50 Caliber sniper rifle. Is there anything cooler than this?

Why, yes there is. It is known as the Steyer AMR
 
 

 

[billybob_jcv]

Did you use to work for Raytheon?
The company I used to work for developed a custom hybrid for BAT.  I developed the manufacturing flow and testing for it.  The project went cold for about 4 years and then went "hot" about the time I was leaving.  Didn't know if BAT finally got the DOD green light.
I ask because I thought Raytheon was the prime for BAT.

As for weapons made of metal - I'll take a Thompson 45 - just because.

No - not Raytheon. In the late 80s and 90s I did some work as a contractor to the Navy on a defunct cruise missile that was originally intended to carry the BAT as one of the possible payloads. I didn't work on the BAT directly, but I always thought it was very cool weapon.

 

[SP Wild]

I was a young engineer working on this from 1984-1987. Aircraft are not supposed to be able to do this!!

 
I would much rather be in a fighter jet than a metal coffin with a big gun...I'd rather be in an armed infantry unit than in a tank, there would be more choices for which coffin I went away in.  Would've been exciting to be part of the team that brought us the most overall advanced jet in the world.  OTOH, I feel the SU27 derivatives are the most 'pure' aerodynamic designs without any stealth shaping compromises to aerodynamics....I dunno, it just looks more organic and is the epitome of the last generation...it just plain looks sexier than the F14, F15 and F22.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  OTOH, I feel the SU27 derivatives are the most 'pure' aerodynamic designs without any stealth shaping compromises to aerodynamics....I dunno, it just looks more organic and is the epitome of the last generation...it just plain looks sexier than the F14, F15 and F22.

 
I second that - the Flanker is very preferable for a lot of reasons. The F22 developed that way because of multi-role combat capability and how the US projects future combat situations, that being mostly fighter-bombers with more of the latter, and if you are doing that, even if you are dropping smartbombs (as opposed to WW2-era dive bombing) from high altitude, a large SAM can take you out. They deemed a small radar signature that you either can't lock on to or can't find as more useful than the maneuverability of the SU27. Even when, for example, the Serbs got around the F117 when they noticed the string of targets getting bombed and had the next installation in that path just spray flak and large-caliber AA bullets all over the sky, downing the F117, not even the SU27's maneuverability will survive that if the pilot doesn't get up high enough before he gets there (even WW2 dive bombers were just trying to stay away from the exploded shells' shrapnels, not anticipating at what point they'll explode). It's not going to be like how a Gundam slips around flak shells and energy beams, and heck, even then the best next-gen human pilots (the ones who, in their universes, were born in space and lived there whose brains aren't as tied down to a fixed 2D orientation) actually take hits from slow-ass destroyers and battleships, but fiction being what it is, they have powerful energy shields that stop flak shells and their actual shields can stop direct hits from energy weapons larger than the robot (and they zip through all that hell because a huge beam-assisted sword can cut up a battleship like a can opener liberating brined tuna for my sandwich, because the battleship on their side for some reason was a lousy shot using its largest beam weapon, save for when it helps the plot).

 

[billybob_jcv]

I would much rather be in a fighter jet than a metal coffin with a big gun...I'd rather be in an armed infantry unit than in a tank, there would be more choices for which coffin I went away in.  Would've been exciting to be part of the team that brought us the most overall advanced jet in the world.  OTOH, I feel the SU27 derivatives are the most 'pure' aerodynamic designs without any stealth shaping compromises to aerodynamics....I dunno, it just looks more organic and is the epitome of the last generation...it just plain looks sexier than the F14, F15 and F22.

My old manager from Northrop would probably have agreed with you - one of his favorite sayings was "Nature hates corners." Unfortunately for junior engineers like me, that manifested itself into his insistance that all wind tunnel & flight test data had to be hand-fared with a french curve rather than plotted as an X-Y chart in Lotus 123 (this was 1987). So, we plotted the data points with just symbols, then sat for hours with french curves plotting lines with colored pencils. I always suspected that's why he was a nearly 60 year old engineering manager that was stuck in a small group that was responsible for making minor mods to cheap target drones that had not had been significantly changed since 1965.

 

[Hutnicks]

My old manager from Northrop would probably have agreed with you - one of his favorite sayings was "Nature hates corners." Unfortunately for junior engineers like me, that manifested itself into his insistance that all wind tunnel & flight test data had to be hand-fared with a french curve rather than plotted as an X-Y chart in Lotus 123 (this was 1987). So, we plotted the data points with just symbols, then sat for hours with french curves plotting lines with colored pencils. I always suspected that's why he was a nearly 60 year old engineering manager that was stuck in a small group that was responsible for making minor mods to cheap target drones that had not had been significantly changed since 1965.

I think that up untill the F22 the only aircraft that had never been bested in NATO games was the Harrier. There is a lot to be said for well applied vectored thrust.

 

[billybob_jcv]

The F-22 was designed to be in a battle environment where it might be outnumbered 4-to-1 or more. A big part of that is being able to see and shoot the enemy significantly sooner than they will be seen. The original F22 design was for air-superiority only - it didn't have a ground attack role. Originally, that role was supposed to be filled by the F117 and A12. They added the ground attack role much later.

 

[SP Wild]

Does having ground attack capabilities compromise air superiority?  I guess so for it to be an afterthought...the F15 had ground attack though, so it was inevitable that its successor had to match and exceed its capabilities, including ground attack.  Anyways, no dispute about the F22s total dominance in performance and capabilities over any other current aircraft.
 
I find battleships a tad more interesting than tanks as well...even though a battleship is probably going to end up being the float for which your carcas is burned and floated away for a sea burial...or you die by sharks in the water after you jump off a sinking ship....or get stung by a jellyfish, drown then freeze, then thawed then devoured by sharks, or perhaps a giant squid.

 

[bangraman]

And, guns with bayonets..

 
Tactical Spork > Bayonets
 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Does having ground attack capabilities compromise air superiority?  I guess so for it to be an afterthought...the F15 had ground attack though, so it was inevitable that its successor had to match and exceed its capabilities, including ground attack.  Anyways, no dispute about the F22s total dominance in performance and capabilities over any other current aircraft.

 
It depends on what kind of ground attack you're going to do. Before, the kind of movement your plane must do has an impact, as in an extreme example it would be dive-bombing which requires differences in design of the aircraft itself. Nowadays with smart bombs and troops on the ground using guide lasers I think the primary limitation is the size of the ordnance (especially with closed bays on the stealth F22), or in extreme cases, the kind of fire support that needs to be delivered and how much they want to spend on the ordnance (like what the A10's autocannon or the Spectre's Howitzers can do, which is why I can't see them getting phased out even with the F22).
 
What I think an all-out engagement will look like is for the attacker to come in first with F117s with HARMs, then the F22s to gain air superiority, then some squadrons can carry bombs to knock out large-enough SAM units that were not taken out by the F117s and will be spotted later (like mobile medium SAMs that were hidden in trees). Then the A10s and Spectres come in, likely circling far above but near the advancing ground troops; immediate fire support will be from drones instead of flying tanks like the Apache (considering one well-placed missile can still disable that and risk at least two lives). It's actually likely that the Apache will do more support missions escorting airborne/mountain troops in helicopter transports than going ahead of MBTs and mechanized infantry (like javelin and sword light cavalry scouting and harassing so the main line can have time to form ranks or strap on armor).

 

[billybob_jcv]

I think the F15 didn't get a ground attack mission until the F15E. One of the biggest differences when you add ground attack is in the radar and avionics. You have to have systems that are capable of designating and attacking ground targets - that doesn't just come automatically with the airframe. In addition, as has already been mentioned, the ordinance mount points and/or dispensing system has to be built for specific weapons. these days, most weapons dropped from attack aircraft are precision guided in one way or another - and that means they have to have a command & control system somewhere - a laser designator, or data link, or something. That usually means the plane that drops them needs to have a way to control them - you can't always depend on a JSTARS to be around.

Protege - in your scenario, you forgot the first wave of advanced cruise missiles. Those will probably go in before the F117s and B2s. Not always though - sometimes the F117s would be sent in first to take out very key radar installations before anything else goes in. Those are the pilots with really big cajones - they are completely alone - absolutely no communications or emissions of any kind from the moment they take off until after they have delivered their ordinance and returned to base. In the old days (the only days I know), those were some of the most senior and experienced pilots in the Air Force - no rookies in that group!

 

[whoever]

He is...

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Protege - in your scenario, you forgot the first wave of advanced cruise missiles. Those will probably go in before the F117s and B2s. Not always though - sometimes the F117s would be sent in first to take out very key radar installations before anything else goes in. Those are the pilots with really big cajones - they are completely alone - absolutely no communications or emissions of any kind from the moment they take off until after they have delivered their ordinance and returned to base. In the old days (the only days I know), those were some of the most senior and experienced pilots in the Air Force - no rookies in that group!

 
Oh yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of a totally Army/Air Force engagement. Forgot how long the range of cruise missiles are that even if it's a ground war like Cold War scenarios for Europe, ships can go into the sea past Denmark to hit naval installations and airfields all the way to Leningrad (unless the Soviets were able to get through Finland and Sweden first), followed by close in air support from the fighters. 
 
Still, it's amazing how even old and simple weapons can get around technology when used properly. Look at the human and fiscal cost of IUDs in Iraq, and then there's the Serbs shooting down an F117 with what essentially are flak guns (being radar guided didn't mean a thing since they just put up an umbrella of fire WW2-style). Not even all of them actually - most were high-calibre AA guns. By now with wireless tech I can imagine it should technically be possible to design howitzer shells with detonation fuses that can be reset on the fly, that way you can go from "anti-infantry shrapnel" to "spray and pray we hit what the radar can't see but we guess is on its freaking way over here."

 

[billybob_jcv]

I remember a tidbit from the short time I worked on an F117 flight simulator. One of the methods to reduce detection was for the pilot to roll inverted prior to opening the bomb bay doors. This was supposed to reduce the chance of detection while the doors were open. Then, right before bomb was released, the pilot would roll back upright, and pull hard back on the stick, while at the same time releasing the bomb. This would "toss" the bomb both up and out from the aircraft. After the bomb was released, the plane would complete a half loop and end up inverted and traveling 180 degrees from the direction of the bomb. The pilot would then close the bomb bay doors and roll back upright. This allowed the belly-mounted laser designator to lock on to the target so the LGB could ride it down as the F117 scrammed out of the target area. I have no idea if this complicated maneuver was ever actually used, or if it was just a simulation exercise. All I know is that is was very, very cool to watch the pilots execute it!!