[Tyll Hertsens]

One of the great hallmarks of the turning of ages is that no one quite knows what to do at first in the new environment. Great shifts of wealth occur during age changes because the "old Schoolers" sit on their butts wondering why everybody is scrambling around, and then all of a sudden realise that their buggy whip sales are tanking. OTOH, young whipper snappers (like HeadRoom) come along and do all these previously crazy things and manage to get ahead. Their oar is in a different current---the new paradigm---and they get swept ahead of the old schoolers. But there is no denying that the flow developing under the new conditions is a new undercurrent of uncertain nature, and it's pretty easy to missread the signs. Mistakes and missteps are easy to make, and the new current can as easily capsize as sweep you forward.

The following posts by Jimmy and Nate were made in the new Millett HA2 thread, but as Jimmy says, their a bit off topic. So I've used my evil moderator powers to clean up the origional thread, and restart the topic Jimmy raises in a more apropriate way. So we'll head off to hear what Jimmy had to say about the HA2 post, and open the conversation about how HeadRoom should or shouldn't act in our new forum area.

 

[jpelg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif Exactly why we haven't done something with this to date. But heck, wouldn't it be nice to see a FOTM amp from HeadRoom one of these days? And no joke, have you heard an HA2? There friggen sweeeeet sounding.

Having a FOTM amp would imply an amp that people could actually buy today. Instead, this is total vaporware. As is the new Microline, and the speaker stands.

I'm a bit tired of the marketing BS that is happening more and more around here. MOT's giving out pre-production prototypes for meets & reviews far in advance of models with set specs coming off the manufactering line, only to have things change if/when the final product does ship. Extremely (unreasonably) long lead times for limited run products to ship after people have ponied-up their cashola. The list goes on, and you can probably plug-in the names of whom I speak.

In this instance, you are trading on the legendary lore of the Wheatfield, an amp whose design is quite old in comparison to others in production today, and that has been out of production for years (because neither Headroom nor Pete himself found a business reason to keep it going), and spinning a sales blurb long before it's being made again.

These are not good things, imo. And then this site is filled with people bitching & complaining after-the-fact that MOT's didn't meet their expectations, either in the product itself, or in the time-to-market. Proof of how susceptible people around here are for these marketing tactics.

I guess the competition must be pretty hot around here, and ultra-early adopters need a place to talk about theoretical amps from the future, that this sort of thing is becoming more and more commonplace. But I don't think the industry, or even this site as a whole, benefits from pre-emptively striking against known products in production now by releasing marketing blurbs about stuff that ain't happenin' for a long, long time.

Hence the major "FUD" factor in these threads of which I speak.

I guess this probably should have been posted in the "Hey, HeadRoom, you need to .... " thread instead.

Cheers.

 

[n_maher]

Jimmy,

I hear what you're saying and in large measure agree that some of what goes on seems like a big tease. But if there's one thing that Tyll's been good about (that I can see) with regard to this it is that he is actually realistic about when you'll see the final product. Would you prefer that he not mention anything about new products until they're completely stocked and ready to roll? And while I can probably plug in the "names of whom you speak" I don't personally feel that Headroom is the right target for your venom. Or at least when I read your posts you sound a bit upset, maybe I'm reading it wrong?

Now in HA-2 news, I acquired one of the originals about 4 months ago and have been working with Pete to tweak the amp a bit. As a result I'm very much looking forward to hearing the revised Headroom version and I think the two-box configuration could be seriously cool. For those that don't know much about the original here's a link to Pete's site that has all the old Wheatfield material. It sounds like the amplification section will remain largely the same as the original, which is a very good thing. While the design is "quite old" that has exactly zero bearing on how good it sounds. I've been spending a lot of time with mine lately and it rocks, without question.

You can count on more from me later...

 

[jpelg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Would you prefer that he not mention anything about new products until they're completely stocked and ready to roll?

Yes. Or at least wait until specs are locked in and the production line is actually rolling. Quote:

I don't personally feel that Headroom is the right target for your venom. Or at least when I read your posts you sound a bit upset, maybe I'm reading it wrong?

Not upset, but rather a bit dissappointed.

Up til now, Headroom has been a leader in the industry, not only in product quality up front, but also in the stability of the company over time. This provides something very few MOT's can boast, which is a long-term track record of excellence in product & customer service. I don't know anyone who would dispute that, and I have always respected Tyll & HR for it.

While newer players in the game have been able to garner marketshare away from HR in recent times, due in no small part to their own FUD marketing tactics, I hate to see HR go down that route to compete. Personally, I don't want a FOTM month amp.

If Head-Fi's membership :: Headroom's bottom line ratio is anything close to what Tyll continually states (which is to say a small percentage), then it's not really necessary in the grande scheme of HR's viability & longevity. Or perhaps it's simply increased (& regular) visibility here on Head-Fi, the premiere Internet source of headphone information, that will help HR? I guess any publicity is good, right?
Quote:

While the design is "quite old" that has exactly zero bearing on how good it sounds.

I don't dispute that the Wheatfield sounds great - in the right system, and with the right cans. There are many ways to skin a cat, and system synergy is paramount in the final sound. Amps need to be matched to headphones. Many new headphones have appeared since the Wheatfield was designed & originally produced. It may be good for some, but not others.

The same is true for other amps (Headroom's, as well as other MOT's). The key here is to provide innovation & system matching though either better targeted design or customizability. Re-hashing an old design, and then talking about it online while it takes over a year to get back into production, while a nice homage to Pete, this is not the way to go, imo.

Just my .02

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Re-hashing an old design, and then talking about it online while it takes over a year to get back into production, while a nice homage to Pete, this is not the way to go, imo.

What is sort of funny, to me at least, is that some "newer" amps that I've seen are precious little other than rehashes of existing designs and some of those are pretty similar to the HA-2 - so Pete must have gotten something right.

Other than that I'd agree that to some degree systems are synergy dependent. But in my humble opinion a lot of serious, quality listening time is lost around here in the name of absolute synergy. A good amp should always sound good, good headphones should always sound good and a good source should always sound good. Sure, you might not be hitting that glorious 100% performance efficiency but holy cow, what a maddening pursuit that is. Not to mention expensive! I guess I live by more of a "let the rough side drag" mantra than most audiophiles, which is probably why I don't consider myself one.

And thanks for the clarification of the intent of you post. I share your disappointment in manufacturers that show prototypes and pump up interest in future products when they're already woefully behind with current production/orders. I just don't see HR fitting into that classification by a large measure.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm a bit tired of the marketing BS that is happening more and more around here. MOT's giving out pre-production prototypes for meets & reviews far in advance of models with set specs coming off the manufactering line, only to have things change if/when the final product does ship. Extremely (unreasonably) long lead times for limited run products to ship after people have ponied-up their cashola. The list goes on, and you can probably plug-in the names of whom I speak.

Why don't you go ahead and plug-in the names? Am I on the list?

Quote:

In this instance, you are trading on the legendary lore of the Wheatfield, an amp whose design is quite old in comparison to others in production today, and that has been out of production for years (because neither Headroom nor Pete himself found a business reason to keep it going), and spinning a sales blurb long before it's being made again.

Well, this is a pretty ledgendary amp, and I feel pretty bad about sitting on it for all these years. I think my slow action getting the thing back into production is a disservice to the community and a disservice to Pete. I felt like people would want to know the status of the amp, so I posted what we're doing.

Quote:

I guess the competition must be pretty hot around here, and ultra-early adopters need a place to talk about theoretical amps from the future, that this sort of thing is becoming more and more commonplace.

Oh yeah, the competition is pretty hot around here.

Quote:

But I don't think the industry, or even this site as a whole, benefits from pre-emptively striking against known products in production now by releasing marketing blurbs about stuff that ain't happenin' for a long, long time.

Well, let's try to look at this from a bit of a different point of view. How about: this is a hobby; it's supposed to be fun. When I was an outsider in the headphone world, I wanted to hear what manufacturers really had to say about thier products. So, I made a pact with myself that if I ever had the opportunity to be a manufacturer I would do a better job of putting out "real" infomation, and NOT dole out a bunch of marketing double-speak. I thought that hobbyists would enjoy getting "real" information, and that the dialog would not only provide a legitimate channel for feedback, but would actually enhance the fun of the hobby.

I see, and largely agree with your distaste for, manufacturers who don't have a sincere bone in thier body. All they know how to do is pull wool over peoples eyes, and they wouldn't know what to do with, or even recognise, the truth even if it was handed to them on a silver platter. But that doesn't mean that being a manufacturer is inherently evil, or that no good thing ever comes from one. After all, where do you think all these headphones and amp come from.

Enough gripes. Let's just say you were a well intention MOT, Jimmy, what would you do with a forum like this? I really see it as an opportunity to engage the community with dialog on ALL aspects of the nature of HeadRoom's activities. I see it as a way folks here could contribute to the future of what HeadRoom is doing. To do that you simply have to talk about things that are going to happen in the future. Just makes sense to me.

I ask others: Do you want to talk about HeadRooms future in this forum area? Would you like to provide advice and feedback that is heard by MOTs? Would that be fun? Or do you want me to simply pop out from behind the curtain from time to time and drop finished product on your doorstep that might be lacking in some way but your stuck with the offering without recourse. (Because once it's out, it won't change for a while.)

 

[jpelg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why don't you go ahead and plug-in the names? Am I on the list?

I have already stated above that you are not among past offenders, and for that I respect HR a great deal. 'nuff said. Quote:

I made a pact with myself that if I ever had the opportunity to be a manufacturer I would do a better job of putting out "real" infomation, and NOT dole out a bunch of marketing double-speak. I thought that hobbyists would enjoy getting "real" information, and that the dialog would not only provide a legitimate channel for feedback, but would actually enhance the fun of the hobby.

What "real" information is being provided here? Let's not kid ourselves. These MOT-sponsored/controlled sub-fora are an advertising mechanism primarily, and potentially a support mechanism secondly (and far underused in this capacity, imo). The thing is that by using a well known site like Head-Fi, you can advertise without making it look like advertising. Truth is, you're not just "providing information" (air-quotes intentional). This is seeding the market, plain & simple.
Quote:

I really see it as an opportunity to engage the community with dialog on ALL aspects of the nature of HeadRoom's activities. I see it as a way folks here could contribute to the future of what HeadRoom is doing. To do that you simply have to talk about things that are going to happen in the future. Just makes sense to me.

I don't believe that you are actually polling the membership at large for input on upcoming products. First of all, in this particular instance you pretty much know what you plan to do with the Wheatfield (and who are we to second guess Pete on the latest implementation?). As far as polling the populous wrt input on other products you have in mind, what percentage of Head-Fi can actually give good, constructive input on product development outside of whatever is the current FOTM buzzword? A pretty small percentage, I'd guess.

If you want general suggestions, create a thread asking for open suggestions for desired products from the masses.

If I wanted qualified input on something specific, and I thought that Head-Fi was a potential source, I'd probably ask Jude if I could approach some specific members that I prequalify from my assessment of their posts. If Jude agrees, and the selected members agree to participate, they also agree to non-disclosure during development. Products are only talked about publicly when they are locked in and rolling. Participating members are also indicated somewhere after the product rolls so that others know who was involved (and probably posting about it after).

Sound "corporate"? You bet, but you are far from a DIY-er soldering in his basement, Tyll. It's about maintaining a level playing field for all MOT's, and about keeping members informed in the right way.

The second purpose for which these sub-forums can serve is in a support capacity. This, to me, is a HUGE benefit! At this point in my game, I value service as much as product itself. I'm way past FOTM. I would totally patronize a company that had faster, better, more visible support mechanisms that are from the 21st century! People can post their questions about old & new (shipping) products, ask about HR's policies & procedures, etc. while the area is patrolled by qualified HR staff who answer questions quickly and accurately. Major win, imo. I'd buy that for a dollar!

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yyou're not just "providing information" (air-quotes intentional). This is seeding the market, plain & simple.

Again, in part I agree. Tyll is to a degree generating interest in a future product by posting preliminary information about it. But consider this, at least he's doing it in the appropriate forum. What if he'd waited until he sent me a beta copy and then I'd just posted a thread about it in the amps forum? That'd be doing the same thing but in a pretty backhanded manner (in my opinion) although we see threads like this all day at Head-Fi. By posting information here, it's clear that it's coming from the manufacturer and Tyll can actively participate in the discussion about the product. Not to mention that he's at least paying for the advertising and not circumventing the clear and proper channels. And while feedback might not have direct bearing on the product that is already on its way to being in production it might very well influence a future product so it's still valuable. Again at least here, in their own forum, it's clear who's asking the question and gathering the information.

If you want to get bent about manufactures who generate product buzz under the guise of "information" I would respectfully suggest that you make use of your title as moderator and trim some of the fluff from the amp forum.

 

[jpelg]

Your points are well-taken, Nate. I agree with you.

Wrt to moderating other MOT's, we do what we can within our rules. I, for one, police all members & MOT's equally and without prejudice, as do my fellow mods.

I do appreciate Headroom's patronage, both in the past, as well as going forward. And Tyll's openness & enthusiasm on the forums is a good thing overall. I'm sorry if that got lost in my translation.

 

[recstar24]

What should (and shouldn't) MOTs do with a dedicated forum area?

Well, shouldnt you be able to do and say whatever you want? I guess I am not quite clear on what exactly is a sponsor forum, but through my experience at other boards like audiocircle and audioasylum, you've paid to have your own sub set forum where you can talk about prototypes and future plans and whatever else you want. Also this will probably be a place where owners can seek your advice and get some feedback that can prove beneficial to all headroom owners as well. I just hope that the moderation here keeps it fair to you guys that have actually paid for your own forum, and ensure that other manufacturers do not try to freely advertise on the public forums and keep MOT rules consistent.

So speak away and share whatever you want to share IMHO. As consumers we just need to keep the perspective that any protos or plans you talk about may not go into production, and we shouldn't get mad or upset if that happens.

 

[jpelg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by recstar24 /img/forum/go_quote.gif you've paid to have your own sub set forum where you can talk about prototypes and future plans and whatever else you want.

Fair enough. But since a forum is a two-way street, then members can also post their opinions also, as I did wrt the latest threads.

Incidentally, I was posting as a member, and not as a moderator, btw. Quote:

As consumers we just need to keep the perspective that any protos or plans you talk about may not go into production, and we shouldn't get mad or upset if that happens.

This should be sticky-ed somewhere.

 

[tkam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm a bit tired of the marketing BS that is happening more and more around here. MOT's giving out pre-production prototypes for meets & reviews far in advance of models with set specs coming off the manufactering line, only to have things change if/when the final product does ship.

While I agree with you that there is far too much of this going on at least within the last year or so. I think the *only* place where this type stuff should be permitted is in the Sponsored Forums or Sponsor Threads. Manufacturers sending out prototypes or whatever to other members or meets are getting a load of free hype. Just to be clear I'm not talking about a member who happens to buy the first shipping unit of a product. Those people are more than welcome to post what they want. But when members post about prototypes they've heard, or samples they've been "loaned" manufacturers are getting free advertising end of story.

Though I do have to put part of the blame on the membership here. It's almost sickening how many members fall for the exact same FoTM crap every time there is a new headphone or amp available. Be smarter guys and quit falling for the same old song and dance all the time.

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg /img/forum/go_quote.gif This should be sticky-ed somewhere.

You know what I think would help with the FOTM frenzyness? Stop letting manufacturers offer "pre-orders" for products that don't exist. A couple of well known manufacturers have gotten themselves in hot water lately doing this and generated a lot of bad buzz about their products. And granted, some manufacturers are really good at managing the pre-order/buy stuff (Ray seems to handle it well for example) but I have this nightmarish type thought of someone like Storm Digital coming along, who on the surface appears to be a very real and reputable company, purchasing an MoT sponsored thread or Mall-Fi add and offering a reasonably expensive item for sale only to disappear when it comes time to deliver. That would be a very bad situation for all parties involved and really isn't all that far off from happening.

 

[thrice]

Too many posts to quote:

Overall I think this specialty forum for MoT's who pay for it is a good idea. How many other hobbyists get to talk to the manufacturers? We do. They show up to our meets, dance ballet in hallways and strip on webcams (or so I've heard

)

The one thing you always read about when Stereophile or some other audio rag shows up to a meet is the sense of community you feel. This is just another extension of that IMHO.

However, I see jpelg's point. Empty promises, vaporware...etc. These things are corrosive to the hobby and annoying. Well this kind of forum can expose those MoT's. If a MoT announces a new product in a forum like this and then doesn't deliver, or takes pre-orders and can't deliver, I think as a hobbyist and a consumer, I want to know about that. How many more people would have ordered a non-existent or extremely late product if it wasn't reported here. I see this kind of forum as a way to provide more transparency.

Seeding the market? Yeah I guess so, but no more than other companies do. I mean, just release the damn iPhone already....and what about that new multitouch table from Microsoft or literally hundreds of other examples of businesses drumming up hype about their products. Marketing majors have to eat too you know. It happens in all sorts of places and setting aside a dedicated forum where the consumer KNOWS that they are walking into "Headroom land" allows people to make a conscious choice about the information they are consuming. If I come in here, I know that it's about Headroom and that I'm going to be reading posts from people identified as working for Headroom.

FOTM: Yeah it exisits....get over it. I can't figure out who annoys me more, the FOTM people or the wave of whining from the "old guard" who "knows better."

We know it's going to happen and there are people who get excited about new things. Sure they get overzealous and say it's the "best X EVAR."

Keep in mind that this hobby is growing and attracting new people all the time; new people who may not have the same listening skills/hours logged in listening to gear that others have. If the "old guard" bails everytime some noob gushes over something then all that is left is the noobs! Education takes time and patience and the understanding that some people are happy where they are doing whatever they are doing. This isn't High School or College...no one has to become a better listener or a better Headphile. Over time those people who are full of it get called out. I'm sure we can all come up with lists of people no longer with us for this very reason.

I get excited about new gear on the market. I like talking about it and finding out what other people think of it. Sure impressions aren't as reliable right off the bat, but that bears itself out over time. There are some many amps/headphone/source combos that we need to "talk it out" to find those magical moments. Look at the K1000 and the progressions that headphone has gone through with amps...etc. or the HD600, 650, R10...etc.

Sorry for the off-topic rant.

 

[recstar24]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Fair enough. But since a forum is a two-way street, then members can also post their opinions also, as I did wrt the latest threads. Incidentally, I was posting as a member, and not as a moderator, btw.This should be sticky-ed somewhere.

I concur. As long as the post doesn't border on harassment or libel against the manufacturer, and there isn't some underlying motivation to hurt the manufacturer, than user should be able to post honest and objective critiques on their products or business model. The cool thing with Tyll is he seems very open to constructive criticism and I don't think he has ever tried to "shut up" an individual for criticizing anything affiliated with headroom. He appears to handle himself with class.