What is your reference recording?
May 6, 2023 at 6:33 AM Post #46 of 65
Room interactions/acoustics can have “phase offsets” between the direct and reflected sounds resulting in huge differences of 20dB or more, as the phase differential causes “nulls” and “sums”.
yes but im not talking about those or microphone related stuff

i guess you come from a standpoint where "absolute phase" doesnt matter as long both speakers have the same polarity, this is false!! absolute phase matters, specially with transients ( i think )... and more accurate transients make for example piano hits also sound more natural (well because its (for the most part) the same phase as it would occour naturally)
and please dont start with room interactions are so "heavy" that speaker polarity doesnt matter.... its better to have absolute phase and some room interactions that alter it instead of it being completely wrong...

multiwaysystem can be quite messy phase wise so i get why people say absolute phase doesnt matter at all, but i can atleast report that watching out for correct absolute phase on the woofer sounds superior :) (tho it might be preference in some cases, but i personally like hard hitting bass if its intended as such)
 
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May 6, 2023 at 7:29 AM Post #47 of 65
yes but im not talking about those or microphone related stuff
Either you are talking about phase, in which case you are talking about “mic related stuff” or you’re talking about something other than phase, which is it?
on audiocheck.net is a blindtest for absolute phase, but i find it unnessecary hard with the provided sample to hear absolute phase...
What do you mean “unnecessarily hard”, it’s necessarily impossible!
i guess you come from a standpoint where "absolute phase" doesnt matter as long both speakers have the same polarity, this is false!!
You have some reliable evidence to support that assertion do you? Apart from your self admitted “uneducated guess” the only evidence you’ve supplied is “what some people say” and a reference to audiocheck.net, which states: “Our ears are simply not sensitive to the absolute phase (please refer to our Absolute Polarity Blind Test if you don't believe us).”, so the exact opposite of your assertion!
absolute phase matters, specially with transients ( i think )... and more accurate transients make for example piano hits also sound more natural (well because its (for the most part) the same phase as it would occour naturally)
Changing the phase has no effect on transients, unless the transient is in more than one output and you change the relative phase (phase differential) between those outputs!
and please dont start with room interactions are so "heavy" that speaker polarity doesnt matter....
Speaker polarity does make a very obvious difference, if one speaker has the opposite polarity to the other (effectively a 180deg phase differential).
multiwaysystem can be quite messy phase wise so i get why people say absolute phase doesnt matter at all,
With a multwaysystem (multi-channel system) there is obviously more phase differentials between the additional speakers and the additional room reflections they create.
but i can atleast report that watching out for correct absolute phase on the woofer sounds superior
Which is also false! It is commonly necessary to change the phase with subs, due to phase differentials between the sub and other speakers, because as with mics, subs cannot occupy the same point in space as the other speakers. This is why subs and/or bass management systems usually have phase adjustment. If what you “at least report” were actually correct, why would subs/bass management systems ever have any phase adjustment?

Same old story; “uneducated guesses” that contradict the facts/reliable evidence, “supported” by self contradiction and contradicted by even your own quoted source/reference!

It would be funny if you didn’t keep blindly doing the same thing over and over! This isn’t the self contradictory uneducated guesses forum.

G
 
May 6, 2023 at 7:56 AM Post #49 of 65
@Ghoostknight, how do you even know when phase is getting better with your little local adjustment(I'm guessing with EQ option)? What told you that phase was off in the first place? The phase graph from a FR in REW? The phase graph from the impedance measurement (not the same and the one you should actually look at)? Just a guess from tweaking things by ear?


What @gregorio discussed is phase, but as he said, it's also something else entirely as his job is to deal with delays between any 2 things. And I agree with what he said. We are indeed sensitive to phase at some point (like with anything, put enough of it and even us humans will notice something isn't right), but our sensitivity manifests in different ways and at very different magnitudes. What we are very good at noticing even in small amounts is interaural shift. Whatever your views on evolution, the end result is a species that makes use of that a lot to locate sound sources. The rest is often more about the impact it will have on the amplitude of the signal when 2 out of phase signals change how loud something ends up being. The delay has to be huge for us to notice more than the change in amplitude. I would argue that even 180 isn't a big deal for most frequencies.
The one aspect where you might create your own problem/impact is with EQ. Depending on the type of filter, the frequency response and the amount applied (would need to be kind of massive in most cases), you can end up with a sound that's different from the "same" EQ done with basic (and often the best choice) IIR on both channels. Personally, I at most notice some impression of placement that's different when I fool around with the various toys on my EQ. It's still subtle and any other change in more typical EQ variables (amplitude, frequency, Q) will have more influence for me.



Absolute phase/polarity on your transducers is something peculiar, and I don't think it validates or invalidates anything else. It isn't really changing much IMO and while it can turn out audible for a bunch of reasons in some playback system, I really doubt that someone is going to listen to a setup and spontaneously go "this sounds inverted".
I check for that out of habit from when I fooled around with IEM measurements a lot. Looking at the impulse response in REW, and double-checking that it was not me inverting the contacts, I've seen a few IEMs being "inverted". It's been the all thing and both channels showing the same, with absolutely nobody complaining about it or describing weird sound. But of course, once someone mentioned it, there is always some feedback about how some dude did notice something or knew it all along. Hindsight hearing is its own can of worm that's best ignored in favor of actual listening tests.
I only saw one case from Earsonics(can't remember the model) where the bass driver on just one channel was inverted. I don't think I saw measurements of other pairs, so I don't even know if it was a trick to make the bass sound weird and even more "everywhere", or if that one pair had the technician F up when soldering the driver.

In the end, we have the entire speaker family adopting crossover designs to argue that the phase you seem to be talking about isn't an issue for listeners. And on top of that, a giant portion of IEMs (more so with flagship models) also heavily relying on crossover and often messing up with phase well beyond 180° or even 360°. Can something be noticed sometimes, perhaps. Is it at large something of concern? I vote for a loud no (again, for that peculiar phase thing we see pop up with impedance measurements online. Phase as initially discussed by greg is super-duper important and used everywhere in recording and prod).
 
May 6, 2023 at 7:59 AM Post #50 of 65
Either you are talking about phase, in which case you are talking about “mic related stuff” or you’re talking about something other than phase, which is it?
well, its phase im talking about but maybe the only real audible difference in correct absolute phase is better transients (more natural/correct transients)
while the relation of different sources is important to avoid cancellation, correct "absolute phase" might improve specially transients in comparision to everything phase inversed

What do you mean “unnecessarily hard”, it’s necessarily impossible!
You have some reliable evidence to support that assertion do you? Apart from your self admitted “uneducated guess” the only evidence you’ve supplied is “what some people say” and a reference to audiocheck.net, which states: “Our ears are simply not sensitive to the absolute phase (please refer to our Absolute Polarity Blind Test if you don't believe us).”, so the exact opposite of your assertion!
well i just suggested that the sample of audiocheck.net is a bad one imo instruments are one thing but you can do way more digitally phase-wise (which is also more audible)


Changing the phase has no effect on transients, unless the transient is in more than one output and you change the relative phase (phase differential) between those outputs!
well you might not have expierenced it yourself but atleast if you give me my test tracks im pretty sure i can blindtest absolute phase...

Speaker polarity does make a very obvious difference, if one speaker has the opposite polarity to the other (effectively a 180deg phase differential).
yes but im really talking about absolute phase...
but now while you say this... i tested around with this out of curiousity (because i was curious about the noise cancelation aspect of it..)
its pretty obvious that bass dissappears nearly completely while higher frequencys stay to a good degree (and make it sound funky will all the room interactions)

but if the bass dissappears completely it kinda means that specially in the low frequency range the phase is pretty linear even in room, this could also explain why correct phase in bass might be "specially" audible

Which is also false! It is commonly necessary to change the phase with subs, due to phase differentials between the sub and other speakers, because as with mics, subs cannot occupy the same point in space as the other speakers. This is why subs and/or bass management systems usually have phase adjustment. If what you “at least report” were actually correct, why would subs/bass management systems ever have any phase adjustment?
well, phase missmatches between sources are obviously way more audible because of sums/cancelations, so its obviously better to have a little less natural transients than huge cancellations/sums but that probably doesnt mean the sub could work "better" if it actually would have correct absolute phase "and" the main system is still "in phase" to the sub
 
May 6, 2023 at 8:29 AM Post #51 of 65
how do you even know when phase is getting better with your little local adjustment(I'm guessing with EQ option)?
well because it sounds more "correct", and i knew that the transients from this one hardcore song (Alien-T - The Hammer Of The Devil) sounded different with the topping d10 the phase shift (with the aune x8) brought back the same "hard" characterstic of the drop

EasyEffects on Linux has a plugin called "Stereo Tools" where you can set Stereo Phase by degree

Just a guess from tweaking things by ear?
It was just a guess since i read minimum phase filters alter phase a bit, so i tried a few degree ... -2 and -6 degree and the drop sounds less hard than with -4
tho if gregorio is right the reconstruction filter might not even be the reason why in the end

It's still subtle and any other change in more typical EQ variables (amplitude, frequency, Q) will have more influence for me.
no, absolutely true, but that doesnt mean absolute phase is "completely" inaudible, tho it might depend on ears/equipment etc


Absolute phase/polarity on your transducers is something peculiar, and I don't think it validates or invalidates anything else. It isn't really changing much IMO and while it can turn out audible for a bunch of reasons in some playback system, I really doubt that someone is going to listen to a setup and spontaneously go "this sounds inverted".
I check for that out of habit from when I fooled around with IEM measurements a lot. Looking at the impulse response in REW, and double-checking that it was not me inverting the contacts, I've seen a few IEMs being "inverted". It's been the all thing and both channels showing the same, with absolutely nobody complaining about it or describing weird sound. But of course, once someone mentioned it, there is always some feedback about how some dude did notice something or knew it all along. Hindsight hearing is its own can of worm that's best ignored in favor of actual listening tests.
yes i also agree here, you dont "really" miss it (specially if you are used to) but somehow if you compare it it still seems to make a difference, specially if you heared the difference once with your favourite drops or whatever
while casually i wouldnt notice it, if i would be "looking" for it i probably would be able detect it
i might be questioning myself after some of my favourite songs but i wouldnt jump up and say "phase inverted" instantly x)

a other way of describing the effects of absolute phase could to say it sounds (unironically) "more forward"
atleast on my nearfield setup correct phase stuff sounds "more forward" while inverted phase stuff sounds in most cases a little more mellow and a little "further back"

In the end, we have the entire speaker family adopting crossover designs to argue that the phase you seem to be talking about isn't an issue for listeners. And on top of that, a giant portion of IEMs (more so with flagship models) also heavily relying on crossover and often messing up with phase well beyond 180° or even 360°.
not sure what i personally would do but where i stand now i would look out for correct phase in the low frequency range (and some companys might do that too)
unfortunaly with everything about audio (specially analogue..) there isnt a perfect way, tho lets see what the future holds x) there are already active speakers with build in dsp /phase lineararization (but here might be a huge delay in high frequencys a con)

Can something be noticed sometimes, perhaps. Is it at large something of concern? I vote for a loud no
well personally i tend to hear less "audiophile/snakeoil" stuff with headphones anyway, so it depends, i personally probably wouldnt worry that much about it "on the go" but i think there are alot of audiophiles that tweak their home systems like me, and in such a case i wouldnt personally ignore absolute phase if it could be beneficial, in the end one needs to try it to see if it might be beneficial
 
May 6, 2023 at 9:12 AM Post #52 of 65
well, its phase im talking about but maybe the only real audible difference in correct absolute phase is better transients (more natural/correct transients)
What “correct absolute phase”, there isn’t such a thing in stereo music recordings?!
well you might not have expierenced it yourself
You’re right, I haven’t experienced a difference in phase where there is no difference!
if the bass dissappears completely it kinda means that specially in the low frequency range the phase is pretty linear even in room
Why? If there is no bass in the mix due to phase cancellation then there’s no bass to be affected by room acoustics. 0 multiplied by 2 is 0 and 0 divided by 2 is also still 0!
yes but im really talking about absolute phase...
So you’re really talking about something that never exists?
well, phase missmatches between sources are obviously way more audible because of sums/cancelations
Are you talking about phase or polarity? Polarity mismatches are obvious to see and hear. Phase differentials are easy if both signals are identical and the phase shift is 180deg but get progressively less easy to hear with smaller shifts and more difference between the signals. In any case, it’s only a phase differential that’s audible.
so its obviously better to have a little less natural transients than huge cancellations/sums
How can it be a choice? How does having huge cancellations/sums make transients more natural? And as you keep saying, you’re talking about absolute phase (rather than phase differentials), then there is no effect on transients.
but that probably doesnt mean the sub could work "better" if it actually would have correct absolute phase "and" the main system is still "in phase" to the sub
Whether the sub works better with altered phase depends entirely on the relative position of the sub in each individual setup. So it may or may not work better but that is not what you’re arguing, you’re arguing that it should always be “correct absolute phase”, which is false!

It’s becoming more evident that you don’t really have any idea what phase is and the phase interactions which exist in stereophonic recordings or how we perceive them. Go by the apparent audiophile philosophy though and don’t let any of that stop you from arguing about it!!

G
 
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May 6, 2023 at 10:39 AM Post #53 of 65
In headphone measurements, the phase is often shown like this along with impedance:

650.jpg

That one is my HD650 using REW. The delay for each frequency is set with t=0 at the impulse's peak, I believe, to avoid adding all the delay from the loop setup itself. So it's quite the specific measurement. And the measurement only uses one channel!
In general, you get the same shifts as any analog tuning method, analog EQ (or digital EQ imitating an analog filter) would create to get that headphone's own frequency response (not shown on the graph). So you sure can play with your own EQ(not IIR filter ^_^) and compensate for phase with it by opposing the tuning of the headphone in some key areas. I vaguely remember fooling around with that and all pass filters, with some setting on my EQ giving me control over how much phase damage the all pass would make. It was a pretty extreme and bad approach, but at least the FR wasn't impacted when applied globally. I concluded that subjectively I did not care, but that's me.
Sorry, I just noticed we obviously weren't in the right thread for this phase stuff.
https://media.tenor.com/b4LEpOGvktEAAAAC/the-square-hole-square-hole.gif
 
May 15, 2023 at 12:48 PM Post #54 of 65
That is very odd. I wonder what in your system is knocking phase out of whack.
i think it was either topping D10 output or the toslink input of my dac... i tried usb again recently and was able to remove the phase correction for the same result, just to maybe clear things up a bit

it wouldnt surprise me if its the topping D10... i mean they werent able to make it the right absolute polarity in the first place (polarity/phase is flipped by 180° on the og d10, and i guess a bit more), but i might get soon another ddc so i can confirm
 
May 16, 2023 at 2:02 PM Post #56 of 65
It's interesting that all these references are on YouTube. Does that mean that compressed audio doesn't matter to reference recordings?
 
May 17, 2023 at 3:04 PM Post #57 of 65
It's interesting that all these references are on YouTube. Does that mean that compressed audio doesn't matter to reference recordings?
It's easier and more convenient to provide a link to a Youtube video, since it's available for everyone.

I personally use Qobuz streaming service, which has CD quality recordings, but I don't expect everyone else to be using it.
 
May 17, 2023 at 3:10 PM Post #58 of 65


Gauging overall tone and soundstage on my new dac... Love these old timey albums...
 

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