What is the state of MQA and would it influence your decision to purchase an expensive DAC today ?
Jun 12, 2017 at 11:16 AM Post #106 of 125
Do we have any evidence where 192/24 lossless files any better audibly over 192/24 MQA versions? If there is no proven evidence, then why the heck if any music listener would have been concerned about the MQA format? It is way more cheaper to access highest quality, is it not?
 
Jun 21, 2017 at 9:27 AM Post #107 of 125
Firstly, MQA trade off resolution to give some high frequency contents above 22.5k and in return it gives smaller file sizes. Bob Stuart argued that modern digital audio cannot fully utilise the entire 24 bit resolution. As such, MQA uses the upper 6 to 8 bit of the '24 bit data' to encode the high frequency contents. Thus, the effective resolution of MQA is around 17 bit which is carried by a 24 bit data. The first unfold up to 48kHz response using 96kHz sampling, subsequently above 96kHz to 384kHz is called re-sampling (render). MQA at 17 bit 96kHz after decoded (usually carried by 24 bit 44.1/48kHz data in a undecoded file) is still considered hi-res. The so called 'de-blurring' is to improve the impulse response. Of course this whole process is lossy which involved the use of DSP and filters. Watch this video from Bob Stuart and you will understand.

 
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Jun 21, 2017 at 9:38 AM Post #108 of 125
Firstly, MQA trade off resolution to give some high frequency contents above 22.5k and in return it gives smaller file sizes. Bob Stuart argued that modern digital audio cannot fully utilise the entire 24 bit resolution. As such, MQA uses the upper 6 to 8 bit of the '24 bit data' to encode the high frequency contents. Thus, the effective resolution of MQA is around 17 bit which is carried by a 24 bit data. The first unfold up to 48kHz response using 96kHz sampling, subsequently above 96kHz to 384kHz is called re-sampling (render). MQA at 17 bit 96kHz is still considered hi-res. The so called 'de-blurring' is to improve the impulse response. Watch this video from Bob Stuart and you will understand.



Thanks for the detailed reply. I have already watched this. I understand the concept behind it but what I am asking and digging for is if it's possible to say yes it is better to have non-MQA over MQA version of the same file because it is audibly better or not. I don't have an MQA capable DAC yet for myself that is why I cannot answer this by my own ears.
 
Jun 21, 2017 at 10:30 AM Post #109 of 125
Thanks for the detailed reply. I have already watched this. I understand the concept behind it but what I am asking and digging for is if it's possible to say yes it is better to have non-MQA over MQA version of the same file because it is audibly better or not. I don't have an MQA capable DAC yet for myself that is why I cannot answer this by my own ears.

I cannot said which one is better but what I can said both sounded different. I've borrowed my friend's Mytek Brooklyn DAC, this is hardware MQA decoder up to 384kHz. When I compared 2L DXD 24/352.4 vs MQA, the master is a DXD of course, it turned out DXD sounded more 'dynamic', with a lot 'tightness' and have a lot of 'air' in the highs, generally I considered this as 'transparent' and 'accurate'. I would said it is like listening to the original studio master. The MQA which is derived from DXD master which is decoded by Mytek Brooklyn DAC to 352.4k sound less 'dynamic' and less 'tight' but it has a bit of 'warm' and a fuller 'body' in the midrange. The highs are slightly roll off giving an impression of more 'analogue' sounding.

Now, it is not a question which one sounds better, it is which one you like listening to...
 
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Jun 21, 2017 at 10:53 AM Post #110 of 125
I cannot said which one is better but what I can said both sounded different. I've borrowed my friend's Mytek Brooklyn DAC, this is hardware MQA decoder up to 384kHz. When I compared 2L DXD 24/352.4 vs MQA, the master is a DXD of course, it turned out DXD sounded more 'dynamic', with a lot 'tightness' and have a lot of 'air' in the highs, generally I considered this as 'transparent' and 'accurate'. I would said it is like listening to the original studio master. The MQA which is derived from DXD master which is decoded by Mytek Brooklyn DAC to 352.4k sound less 'dynamic' and less 'tight' but it has a bit of 'warm' and a fuller 'body' in the midrange. The highs are slightly roll off giving an impression of more 'analogue' sounding.

Now, it is not a question which one sounds better, it is which one you like listening to...
Thanks for your effort to explain it again. I really appreciate it. Now I guess I need to find a place to test it myself, it seems that is the only or at least the best way to hear what is going on. I didn't think they both could have such vast different characteristics between MQA and non-MQA. So thanks again.
 
Jun 29, 2017 at 4:03 AM Post #111 of 125
Aug 23, 2017 at 9:29 PM Post #112 of 125
My thoughts:
The MQA process is more than just a new codec. I believe anyone will agree it's a clear improvement to sound quality if they fully understand what MQA does. Particularly, the "deblurring" process, as they call it.

When my Dragonfly Red got an update, making it support MQA, I noticed an undeniable improvement in sound quality when playing MQA files from Tidal Masters. It is not subtle at all. It sounds better than listening to normal 24/96 FLAC files, which is almost unbelievable to me, but it really does sound better.

More specifically, MQA streaming on Tidal (with my Dragonfly Red) sounds better than 24/96 files (not streamed) through my much more expensive Chord Mojo. That is exceptional. And again, it's not just a subtle improvement.

MQA is the most significant audio technology that's come out in decades, without a doubt in my mind.

When speaking to people who work for audio companies, the only people who are opposed to MQA are people who are concerned with the amount of power MQA will draw and the potential it has in changing the audio industry. But, they all openly admit MQA is an improvement in sound quality. This is true for all that I've spoken with.

Others are concerned with MQA because they're understandably suspicious of any form of compression. I strongly believe these people would change their view if they fully understood the complicated process of MQA.

Anyhow, what are your thoughts? I'd be interested in what people on head-fi think about this. Please share if you've done any a/b blind testing and how well you understand MQA, particularly the "deblurring" process.
 
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Aug 23, 2017 at 11:38 PM Post #113 of 125
My personal view? I think there is a lot of "blurring" about MQA. The provenance of the masters is still up in the air in a lot of places, the fact that when all is said and done it is still a lossy compression, the increase in volume of masters - slight but noticeable in a comparison, the proprietary nature of the system, etc all add up to questions that I don't believe have been adequately answered. I also note that there are more than a few evangelists (with low post counts) for MQA popping up on audio forums ...To me its a lot like Tidal - superficially it seems like a good deal and then you look at the catalogue... All IMO

regards,

Giles
 
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Aug 24, 2017 at 12:06 AM Post #114 of 125
It's easy to assume compression automatically means lower quality, as audio has often been that way in the past. However, it's not necessarily always the case. One example is Zip files. It's a form of compression that results in no loss of data. With audio, we normally send all the information for each sample. Instead, it is more efficient to only transmit the difference from one sample to the next. This results in no loss of data while using less bandwidth.

Compression isn't what makes MQA special, so that is beside the point. The process of "deblurring" is how MQA improves the sound quality over regular files.

Understanding MQA's deblurring
A causal transmission system has dispersive properties which result from filtering or attenuation. Fine details in the time waveform can be smeared or obscured if the end-to-end impulse response is not sensitive to the signal and to the receiver (human listener).

Blurring has a direct parallel in the optical world as it relates to the design of lenses, dispersion of light in media, in image processing. In electronics, this is well understood by the designers of oscilloscopes.

There is now considerable evidence from neuroscience that the human listener appears more sensitive to time than frequency, by which I mean both that the human listener can outperform Fourier time-frequency uncertainty and that sensitivity to temporal microstructure is finer than a linear system of the same bandwidth would enable. The fine details in sound that are important for the human listener seem to be on timescales as short as 5µs. It is critical to appreciate that these small-scale events in time do not necessarily have origins in high-frequency elements. Sounds can arrive at the microphone from different objects, including reverberation and recognizing that voice and instruments are not point sources. It is very interesting to see that this order of sensitivity is not coupled related to the human tonal limit of ~18kHz.

In a linear analogue system which has cascaded elements contributing to high-frequency roll-off, we can see that temporal detail is smoothed by a function which moves the centroid (group delay) and spreads or can merge finely-separated events.

If we consider a complete recording chain, it may be that the designers of each of the individual components considered should cover the frequency range up to 100kHz, but it is unlikely. Until recently it was considered adequate for an individual component to show a response flat to say 30kHz whereas temporal considerations suggest this is barely adequate for the whole journey from performer to listener through a cascade of microphone, preamplifier, mixer, converter pre- and post-filters, replay pre- and power amplifier and playback transducer. But what we see here is that such a chain has already used up 8µs of the budget while, by extrapolation, limiting one component to 30kHz uses the entire budget.

It is critical to appreciate that this argument is based on the temporal smear of signals and not on the (unlikely) requirement that the human listener benefits from signal harmonics in the range 30–100kHz.

The fact that our systems should exhibit wide bandwidth does not mean that high frequencies are the reason; rather that our neural processing is sensitive at the microsecond level to changes made within the audio band by filtering above 20kHz.

One final thing to see is that this definition (deblurring) is made in the analogue domain; sound is analogue in air and if there is a digital storage channel it should fit into this framework.
 
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Aug 24, 2017 at 1:10 AM Post #115 of 125
I think you're glossing over the lossy aspect. The issue is not compression - lossless compression has been around for a long while and nobody claims that there is a loss of information from a compressed to an uncompressed file. Lossy codecs - of which MQA is one - must of necessity remove information. Now the value of that information can be questioned but the gist is that an MQA file is not the same as an uncompressed audio file. The whole basis of MQA has been that it mitigates or militates the "temporal blur", an issue that only MQA has raised. You might want to do a search on some of the arguments raised over at Computeraudiophile amongst other places to see more pros and cons.

regards,

Giles
 
Aug 24, 2017 at 1:19 AM Post #116 of 125
I think you're glossing over the lossy aspect. The issue is not compression - lossless compression has been around for a long while and nobody claims that there is a loss of information from a compressed to an uncompressed file. Lossy codecs - of which MQA is one - must of necessity remove information. Now the value of that information can be questioned but the gist is that an MQA file is not the same as an uncompressed audio file. The whole basis of MQA has been that it mitigates or militates the "temporal blur", an issue that only MQA has raised. You might want to do a search on some of the arguments raised over at Computeraudiophile amongst other places to see more pros and cons.

regards,

Giles

You are correct. It is technically a lossy compression, but it still results in much better sound thanks to the deblurring. The improvement in sound quality is immediately noticeable to most listeners. Have you tried comparing MQA songs to non-MQA songs, using the same setup? I believe that if you try doing that, you'll no longer doubt the impact of deblurring.

Now, if only someone could figure out how to apply that same deblurring without using MQA's lossy compression, for those who are worried about lossy vs lossless.
 
Sep 14, 2017 at 6:58 PM Post #117 of 125
Maybe of interest:

MQA: Avoiding Confrontation by Mark Waldrep

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6046

"A recent chapter in the debate happened without anyone knowing about it. I turns out that the head of a very well respected manufacturer suggested that he would like to be the moderator for an informative seminar on MQA with panelists representing informed points of view at the upcoming Rocky Mountain Audio Fest....
 
Sep 16, 2017 at 8:14 AM Post #118 of 125
Maybe of interest:

MQA: Avoiding Confrontation by Mark Waldrep

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6046

"A recent chapter in the debate happened without anyone knowing about it. I turns out that the head of a very well respected manufacturer suggested that he would like to be the moderator for an informative seminar on MQA with panelists representing informed points of view at the upcoming Rocky Mountain Audio Fest....


Although he says that "the jury's out on the benefits of MQA
he clearly sides with the crowd that feels MQA is a scam and money grab. Biased and angry
about it, he's hardly on the fence here. If it was an obvious scam then why do some in
the audio engineering community believe it sounds better?
...are they all cynically in it for the money? I strongly doubt that.
 
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Sep 16, 2017 at 7:02 PM Post #119 of 125
My impression is that as "MQA" consists of a number of things being done to the recording that they, along with the recording industry, are trying to make the ordinary consumer equate "high-res" with "better-sounding". Now this was going on before (note the "HiRes" labels on products these days) but by manipulating the actual recordings to bring out more subtle sounds, where they exist, then packing it up as "MQA", a person comparing the "normal res" track with the "HiRes" MQA track, could be fooled into thinking that MQA and HiRes are better.
 
Oct 2, 2017 at 12:38 AM Post #120 of 125
I have Tidal Masters and they provide better sound period. You can disagree and say it is using different master. I don’t care if the add ground up coffee grounds to the filter. It sounds better even using the software Tidal App.

The next DAC I purchase will have MQA.

I don’t need to change the pitch of the music from what the Artist recorded. I’ll take the improvements MQA offers to everyone.
 

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