[sonci]

Well I was just asking if after all this time, with the new audio cards from Asus, Auzentech, Omega etc.. the xFi Elite Pro is still the best in the sense of all doing card. We can find smth better musically, or more cheaper, better support, better multichannel decoding etc..
But if you want the best for music, gaming, Dolby, DTS etc, the Elite Pro is the ONE right?...
What do you think?

 

[Lokonsky]

Some people prefered Onkyo.
It's full of big capacitor and got a great review as well

 

[Shahrose]

no, the best for overall use (gaming included) is currently the Auzentech X-Fi Prelude.

 

[krmathis]

Has it ever been "THE BEST"?

 

[Scrith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krmathis /img/forum/go_quote.gif Has it ever been "THE BEST"?

My thoughts exactly.

 

[obobskivich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shahrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif no, the best for overall use (gaming included) is currently the Auzentech X-Fi Prelude.

thats contestable

in many tests, the Elite Pro will run alongside the X-Fi Prelude, in terms of audio quality (lets not get into subjective arguements, or cry that in 5 to 10 years the card might not work), however, the X-Fi Prelude offers opamp rolling (instant win for the SQ crowd) and is about $100 cheaper (instant win in my book), while the Elite Pro offers a ton of other inputs/outputs and remote with the box (which some may prefer)

the HT Omega Claro Halo is also a great all-rounder, because of its built in headphone amp, although in terms of gaming performance, the X-Fi based hardware still wins out

the Onkyo is going to be even worse behind the X-Fi's for gaming, in terms of performance, because its VIA based (meaning amazing SQ is possible, at the expense of massive processing power like X-Fi and C-Media have)

I would put the X-Fi Prelude, X-Fi Elite Pro, Claro Halo XT, and Claro Plus on the same level, were price to be no object, however the X-Fi Prelude is the least expensive of that group, and will trump half of that group in gaming performance, and keep pace with sound quality across the board, its just lacking a headphone amp and straight RCA stereo outs, aside from that though, its still pretty much king of the heap

 

[darkswordsman17]

It's hardly massive processing power. Aside from maybe Battlefield 2 with some of the X-Fi only stuff (which you can still get with the Prelude), the performance difference is not going to be significant. It was ~5-10% on single core CPUs, and that was back when games didn't have their own software controlled audio processing (so they depended on having hardware processing for more advanced audio features). Concern yourself more about sound quality, as performance is easier (and cheaper) to make up elsewhere (video card especially).

 

[sonci]

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkswordsman17 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's hardly massive processing power. Aside from maybe Battlefield 2 with some of the X-Fi only stuff (which you can still get with the Prelude), the performance difference is not going to be significant. It was ~5-10% on single core CPUs, and that was back when games didn't have their own software controlled audio processing (so they depended on having hardware processing for more advanced audio features). Concern yourself more about sound quality, as performance is easier (and cheaper) to make up elsewhere (video card especially).

Yes, but the EAX support of non xfi cards is up 2.0. Its nonsense to play modern games without 3D sound...

 

[Lokonsky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonci /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, but the EAX support of non xfi cards is up 2.0. Its nonsense to play modern games without 3D sound...

EAX is no longer support in Vista, Creative have to use ALChemy to convert EAX to OpenAL . The interested thing is someone name Daniel_K make small modification to ALChemy so other sound card can use EAX as long they support OpenAL.

 

[obobskivich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkswordsman17 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's hardly massive processing power. Aside from maybe Battlefield 2 with some of the X-Fi only stuff (which you can still get with the Prelude), the performance difference is not going to be significant. It was ~5-10% on single core CPUs, and that was back when games didn't have their own software controlled audio processing (so they depended on having hardware processing for more advanced audio features). Concern yourself more about sound quality, as performance is easier (and cheaper) to make up elsewhere (video card especially).

it is massive processing power, x-fi has quite a bit of throughput, and as far as "make it up with the video card", ok, so the video card is going to handle audio processing? wow.
I am talking about sound quality, the positional 3D H/W effects from modern audio processors DO trump software 3D in quality, just like H/W accelerated 3D video trumps software 3D in quality (oh, but you could always just buy a 16-core system and play your games in full CPU accelerated magic...why don't you??)

as far as the EAX 2.0 comment, very true

as far as the Vista haters, yeah, that is true, the C-Media and VIA cards still eat it in Vista with 3D gaming, they simply don't have the processing power to do it (and don't sit there and scream that CPUs can do it just as well, they can't, it takes more time, because they're not specialized for it), Asus' Xonar will run OpenAL in Vista running neck and neck with the X-Fi's though, so thats another option


also, did I ever say the Prelude didn't have X-Fi, or didn't have the processing power of the other X-Fi boards?

and before you answer, i'll answer for you, no, I did not, I said they're roughly 1:1 quality wise, the only thing the EP has is the remote and breakout box, I actually said the Prelude is still my vote, mostly based on its price


but oh no, lets yell at me, because I'm actually going to provide some information, and not just say "NO NO NO YOU VIOLATED FLAVOR OF THE MONTH UR WRONG UR WRONG!!!!111oneoneoneoneone"

if you want 3D hardware accelerated audio (which, is faster than having the CPU do it (and no, nobody is going to write software that uses an entire core to compute audio, thats about the most childish concept I've ever heard, because modern processing cores are far too powerful to do JUSt that)), you need something with the ability to do 3D hardware accelerated audio, and the appropriate software for it

currently thats Creative X-Fi (EMU20k and EMU20k2), and Asus Xonar (AV200), C-Media's CMI8788 is capable as well (Claro Plus, Halo, Halo XT, etc) however you have to play with it to get it working (which isn't an option for all users, some aren't as technical as others, you have to accept this as well)

if you want something out of the box that'll do everything you want, as a good all-rounder, thats X-Fi Prelude, X-Fi Elite Pro, or Xonar D2/D2X

if you're fine tweaking a bit, or accepting a few quirks, HT Omega and Onkyo offer some great products, from a pure SQ perspective, however they aren't all-rounders, which was the original question, not "what soundcard has the best sound quality ever"

 

[anetode]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif it is massive processing power, x-fi has quite a bit of throughput, and as far as "make it up with the video card", ok, so the video card is going to handle audio processing? wow.

I think he was referring to processing potential in general. Current GPUs can perform massive amounts of FPU calculations and with specialized tools like NVidia's CUDA, programmers can use GPUs in any number of non-graphics related capacities (including DSP).

There's no real reason to use any Creative product if you ignore support for the antiquated EAX. Since music generally sounds better with minimal processing, the best soundcard choices include high quality components and little bloatware. Auzentech's take on X-Fi fails the latter criterion as it is plagued by the same incompatibilities and useless "features" inherent in Creative's drivers. CMedia and Envy24 based soundcards are teh win.

Claro Halo is my current favorite, however that may change when the new Asus cards come out.

 

[obobskivich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by anetode /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think he was referring to processing potential in general. Current GPUs can perform massive amounts of FPU calculations and with specialized tools like NVidia's CUDA, programmers can use GPUs in any number of non-graphics related capacities (including DSP). There's no real reason to use any Creative product if you ignore support for the antiquated EAX. Since music generally sounds better with minimal processing, the best soundcard choices include high quality components and little bloatware. Auzentech's take on X-Fi fails the latter criterion as it is plagued by the same incompatibilities and useless "features" inherent in Creative's drivers. CMedia and Envy24 based soundcards are teh win. Claro Halo is my current favorite, however that may change when the new Asus cards come out.

well, thats probably the least reasonable arguement I've heard in a long time

again, the poster is asking for an all-rounder, NOT absolute SQ, and simply saying something is "teh win", does not make it so, the X-Fi processor does have more capabilities than anything else on the market, making it a solid all rounder, just because that software isn't compatable in Vista isn't Creative's fault (its the combined problem of a few parties), and the X-Fi still leverages that massive processing power in OpenAL to be very competitive with the Xonar D2's, and they both still run ahead of the VIA Envy24 hardware

for pure SQ, I couldn't agree more that the X-Fi not neccisarily the best choice, however for an all-rounder, the Prelude is probably still the best call, if you just wanna hate creative because they're creative (i know, its popular to hate the big companies), get the Xonar D2 or D2X

as far as "Current GPUs can perform massive amounts of FPU calculations and with specialized tools like NVidia's CUDA, programmers can use GPUs in any number of non-graphics related capacities (including DSP).", the amount of specialized code you'd need implement just to get a G80 or GT200 crunching away at signal processing is obscene, not to mention the price of the board, and the fact that the audio would not be passed through anything the processing board has on it, so you'd still be limited by the D/A board you had elsewhere in the system, yes, ALL GPUs can perform massive amounts of FPU calculations, however getting GPGPU working is far from perfect, and the second you deviate from the few specific things GPUs accelerate at, the 1 TFlop performance that nVidia is currently bragging about drops down lower than what modern COTS CPUs can do (nevermind the high end vector chips with FPGA helpers, specialized MCMs, and elegant multi-core designs that currently exist)

my point is, from a theory perspective, X-Fi is far from perfect, however in real world usage, there isn't much better on the market, in terms of doing everything the X-Fi can do, yeah, some of the Envy24 stuff has better SQ in stereo output, can it do 3D sound in hardware? no, does it have working/stable driver support for a number of operating systems? it varies brand to brand

C-Media is in a different boat, CMI8788 is amazing, but good luck finding one that isn't on an HT Omega card, which means price gouging

then theres the Asus AV200, which I've stated multiple times as being right there with the X-Fi if we're talking about Windows Vista, however, most gamers I know (and basically any software developer I know) are still using Windows XP, because its mature, and its where the majority of the world still is (don't care what Steve Ballmer is currently saying, Vista hasn't been picked up by everyone yet, and it probably never will be, who cares if DirectX 10 has this or that, because DirectX 9 is still the nameo f the game (oh yeah, about those GPUs you're talking about, the majority of the ones in the field are DX9))

and EAX is far from antiquated, its currently maintained and supported by Creative, not to mention that Asus is writing code to implement it on AV200, and, honestly, name something that performs better, or offers better functionality, that isn't entirely proprietary and runs on consumer hardware

just as a closing thought, I know this is a losing battle, like I said, its fun to hate creative, just because creative is big, same reason people love to hate intel, microsoft, GM (the food company and the car company), anything thats mainstream, simply because it is mainstream....ahh the joys of a consumeristic society bred to embrace niche marketing on a wholesale level

 

[anetode]

Creative has every opportunity to develop a superior product, so far they are squandering it. A few years ago they spent a ton of money on developing a complex and cumbersome DSP and they continue to ride on its coattails. Meanwhile on-board audio has become ubiquitous, rendering soundcards a niche market, and OpenAL enabled cross-platform support of game audio on a open-source codebase. The market is changing and a quality 7.1 soundcard w/ support for decoding and positional audio now costs less than $100.00.

The X-Fi is by no means a bad product, but better soundcards are available in almost every price range. It is no longer a good value, nor does it deliver the best sound quality. I hold precious few brand loyalties, just because I used to save up to buy a Sound Blaster Live! doesn't mean that I can't deride Creative for its current range

On the CMI8788, at least, we do agree.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif it is massive processing power, x-fi has quite a bit of throughput, and as far as "make it up with the video card", ok, so the video card is going to handle audio processing? wow. I am talking about sound quality, the positional 3D H/W effects from modern audio processors DO trump software 3D in quality, just like H/W accelerated 3D video trumps software 3D in quality (oh, but you could always just buy a 16-core system and play your games in full CPU accelerated magic...why don't you??) as far as the EAX 2.0 comment, very true as far as the Vista haters, yeah, that is true, the C-Media and VIA cards still eat it in Vista with 3D gaming, they simply don't have the processing power to do it (and don't sit there and scream that CPUs can do it just as well, they can't, it takes more time, because they're not specialized for it), Asus' Xonar will run OpenAL in Vista running neck and neck with the X-Fi's though, so thats another option also, did I ever say the Prelude didn't have X-Fi, or didn't have the processing power of the other X-Fi boards? and before you answer, i'll answer for you, no, I did not, I said they're roughly 1:1 quality wise, the only thing the EP has is the remote and breakout box, I actually said the Prelude is still my vote, mostly based on its price but oh no, lets yell at me, because I'm actually going to provide some information, and not just say "NO NO NO YOU VIOLATED FLAVOR OF THE MONTH UR WRONG UR WRONG!!!!111oneoneoneoneone" if you want 3D hardware accelerated audio (which, is faster than having the CPU do it (and no, nobody is going to write software that uses an entire core to compute audio, thats about the most childish concept I've ever heard, because modern processing cores are far too powerful to do JUSt that)), you need something with the ability to do 3D hardware accelerated audio, and the appropriate software for it currently thats Creative X-Fi (EMU20k and EMU20k2), and Asus Xonar (AV200), C-Media's CMI8788 is capable as well (Claro Plus, Halo, Halo XT, etc) however you have to play with it to get it working (which isn't an option for all users, some aren't as technical as others, you have to accept this as well) if you want something out of the box that'll do everything you want, as a good all-rounder, thats X-Fi Prelude, X-Fi Elite Pro, or Xonar D2/D2X if you're fine tweaking a bit, or accepting a few quirks, HT Omega and Onkyo offer some great products, from a pure SQ perspective, however they aren't all-rounders, which was the original question, not "what soundcard has the best sound quality ever"

Who was yelling? You over-reacted because I said you were wrong. This has been a continued misconception. Gaming performance = framerates. Guess what is the best way to improve this? A better GPU. Also, GPUs are in fact very adept at 3-D audio, but games haven't really been written to properly take advantage of this (in no small part because you can almost always do with more video processing power, especially when you start increasing resolutions and anti-aliasing).

The only reason the X-Fi offers anything is because Creative tied their software to it. A CPU actually has more potential (and sorry, but stop buying Creative's BS about how an X-Fi is more powerful than a Pentium 4 in some bs situation that's coded specifically for it). Due to various reasons, Creative themselves have said they're moving away from the hardware side and are planning on releasing the X-Fi features as a software bundle. Probably won't happen too soon though (it is Creative after all).

Everything in gaming is moving to software rendering, even the graphics. The main motivating factor is in fact quality. Software rendering gives you theoretically unlimited potential, you just have to write good enough software and have enough processing power to do it. Let the game engine handle things like positional audio so that the hardware can focus solely on audio fidelity.

I'm not even going to bother arguing your other points, but you're being silly if you don't think the criticisms of Creative are valid. They aren't even that big of a company (why do you think Microsoft wasn't too concerned with ticking them off with the way they were changing the audio systems in Vista?). They have however significantly limited the innovation in the market that they function in.

 

[sonci]

They have however significantly limited the innovation in the market that they function in.[/QUOTE]

Thats absolutely true, i remember a recent article on Anandtech, which refered to Creative as a dying company. EAX was probably the only reason they become so popular, Im not a gamer, but I must admit that a time or another every nongamer want to sit and try some new HLife or TRaider, and the 3D sound is half of the fun. For that reason most of us have two PC, one with a good audiophille card, and the other with almoust always The Soundblaster card.
Just for information, with the release of service pack 1, Vista has surpassed xP in every field, theres no more reason on insisting on xp.
I dont own a Xonar, but I dont believe it can equal the xfi processor,(just because the soft is creative made..) and if you google prelude, you can see that even that got problems, though it has the same processor.
I modded my xFi, and it really became astonishing.
So, I think theres a good reason to hate Creative, without the damn EAX, we would have a lot more of audio cards to choose...