And from what I heard the new HDV800 makes the hd800 sing (and hdv800 is less than 2k). And that is coming from a guy who had the Orpheus. Let's say a good headphone appears on the market. A very good one...everybody loves and and rates it high end though few amp producers have yet mastered the sinergy with it. The amps/sources are very expensive. But one day, a manufacturer comes with a really good amp/dac that "makes them sing" and the price is a lot lower than others. In your logic...you then...have to take the headphones out of high end category )
Nobody said nothing about that^ yet.And of course people will now come and say that hdvd800 is not as good as x and bla bla.. And this is how would they fall in the same category discussed here.
I'm OK with your personal definition of Summit-fi and if Currawong wants to adopt it into being Head-fi's definition, that's fine too. It's the arbitrary and inconsistant nature of the current Summit-fi that bothers me, vis, low end electrostats etc are kept in despite being far below that price threshold. In many ways that makes sense too because these are still top grade headphones in terms of performance (as is the LCD2, evidently). There just needs to be consistancy.
The title for what belongs in Summit-fi has as little say as the "Related Gear" section, or the Buyers Guide. Both of these list all the headphones expunged as Summit-fi and High End.
I agree with that and with what MagickMan said.
The inconsistent nature bothers me as well. You cannot have biased rules or rules that apply just for one headphone because after one night someone thinks and says..we should get this out of here.
Then I think we should go by what Magick Man has described than we should just have another dedicated sub-forum called High-end to keep folks here happy.
about my last post... (replying to myself, feels so low)... anyway... about the relationship between summit-fi gear and value, if gear gain or at least maintain its value over a longer span of time, lets say between generations of products, that's a clear indicator of summit-fi status
therefor every new piece of gear that have not yet been approved by the community (read market and/or industry) as having a summit-fi status, which can be determined by the variation trend of its value if the gear, product isn't new, does clearly not belong in the summit-fi sphere
so by this simple but imo 100% efficient, and true and objective, yet in the same time subjective, rule, u get a clear guideline about should it go in the summit-fi forum or not
so all this lcd 2, t1, hd 800, and alike, r way out of, far away, from being summit-fi
Then I think we should go by what Magick Man has described than we should just have another dedicated sub-forum called High-end to keep folks here happy.
u will have the exact same problem for every elitist, and other forums category that doesn't have a clear definition, or, and especially, purpose, cos the problem was the ambiguity of the thread, sub forum or what ever, the meaning of it,
cos summit-fi we can agree on what should be posted in it, and what's the purpose of even having such subforum, than it would be fine,
everything else is much easier to sort and divide by clear division by type, manufacturer, technical proprieties etc...
it's about the forum being messy cos it have only subforums by type of device, and not sorted by manufacturers, or technical aspect, etc...
let's make subforums, logical, intuitive, and useful,
if admins mods have to move threads posts it's about the forum not being appropriately configured optimized for its purpose, in terms of subdividing, creating new subforums etc.
I have some very nice $2-3k rigs, and they sound great, but they aren't really Summit-Fi (which is a category I'd place above even the generic term "high-end"), more like upper-mid-fi. For me, Summit starts around $2k for the headphones and then you add the key ancillary components. That's still quite a few headphones, especially when you count the vintage stuff.
Summit-Fi is no-holds-barred, price is no object. We don't scoff or laugh at a person's spending, whether it's $20k cables, $5k tubes, or $50k+ turntables, they're reaching for that peak, no matter the cost.
I'm OK with your personal definition of Summit-fi and if Currawong wants to adopt it into being Head-fi's definition, that's fine too. It's the arbitrary and inconsistant nature of the current Summit-fi that bothers me, vis, low end electrostats etc are kept in despite being far below that price threshold. In many ways that makes sense too because these are still top grade headphones in terms of performance (as is the LCD2, evidently). There just needs to be consistancy.
It's not about price or what I want, which is why I said about this kind of thing: You know it when you hear it. It is hard to define otherwise.
The first time I listened with a Stax rig then went back to my regular headphones, it was apparent. The first time at a friend's house we switched from his Benchmark to a rare Nakamichi Dragon DAC, it was glaringly apparent. The first time I experienced Piega and ELAC speakers, it was glaringly apparent. In all honesty, one of the best stereo rigs I've heard was with ELAC speakers and would only cost about $10-15k at most and more enjoyable than the Wilson/Goldmud/Esoteric rig I had listened to earlier that day.
Sorry to interrupt this wonderful LCD2, HD800 pi$$ing contest, but i would just like to know if my precious PS1000 are still in the Summit-FI forum, so that i can make my decision to either jump, or climb down from the ledge.
Seriously tough, the fact that i do not own either the LCD2, the HD800 or the HE500 ,means that i'm not emotionally involved and allows me to keep a cool head about this,since when as this become a competition?, now, i don't care wether your rig is worth $100 or $1000, or even $10 000, we are all in this for the same reasons, the love of music reproduced through headphones.
Who care if your favorite headphones got kicked off the ''big team'', it's just one man's decision/opinion, in the end, your headphones still sounds just as good as it did.A lot of peoples love to hate Grados, and it doesn't bother me one bit, and even if i don't own LCD2, HD800,T1,HE500,WPX1100, ok!, i made the last one up just to see if you were paying attention, i've heard all of them, and i think that they're all good sounding headphones, but in the end, we have to make a decision, well most of us do, David is an exeption, but the fact that i own Grados does not mean that i hate all the other brand, it just means that i prefer Grados, that's all.
Now come join me around the camp fire, we'll sing some songs...Cumbaya my lord....
The GS/PS1k's hardly ever get mentioned around in the Summit-fi section so it's probably forgotten (buried by the numerous amount of HE500 vs LCD2 threads).
Sorry to interrupt this wonderful LCD2, HD800 pi$$ing contest, but i would just like to know if my precious PS1000 are still in the Summit-FI forum, so that i can make my decision to either jump, or climb down from the ledge.
Seriously tough, the fact that i do not own either the LCD2, the HD800 or the HE500 ,means that i'm not emotionally involved and allows me to keep a cool head about this,since when as this become a competition?, now, i don't care wether your rig is worth $100 or $1000, or even $10 000, we are all in this for the same reasons, the love of music reproduced through headphones.
Who care if your favorite headphones got kicked off the ''big team'', it's just one man's decision/opinion, in the end, your headphones still sounds just as good as it did.A lot of peoples love to hate Grados, and it doesn't bother me one bit, and even if i don't own LCD2, HD800,T1,HE500,WPX1100, ok!, i made the last one up just to see if you were paying attention, i've heard all of them, and i think that they're all good sounding headphones, but in the end, we have to make a decision, well most of us do, David is an exeption, but the fact that i own Grados does not mean that i hate all the other brand, it just means that i prefer Grados, that's all.
Now come join me around the camp fire, we'll sing some songs...Cumbaya my lord....
I don't get it. The reasons so far for the seemingly arbitrary removal of headphone discussion threads from Summit-fi seem to be conflicting;
1. Cost is the issue, not just cost of headphones but of the equipment used to run them.
2. Cost is not the issue, it's something I can't describe and you wouldn't understand.
3. It's my own subjective listening experiences.
Or is it actually all of the above?
I understand why you hold electrostats in such esteem, even budget rigs and vintage stats hold their own today. That said, if even the low end Stax and/or the ESP-950 are deemed Summit-fi, High End, ToTL, End Game, but the LCD2 and other headphones are not, there has to be a logical reason because these headphones cost more, have more demanding requirements and many users (including myself) subjectively prefer their sonic performance.
A compromise has already been floated in this thread, vis, adding a new sub-forum under High End Audio for the financial peak of the hobby and allow those headphones demoted to return to where they belong (as per the "Related Gear" and Buyers Guide). Are you willing to impliment this?
I don't get it. The reasons so far for the seemingly arbitrary removal of headphone discussion threads from Summit-fi seem to be conflicting;
1. Cost is the issue, not just cost of headphones but of the equipment used to run them.
2. Cost is not the issue, it's something I can't describe and you wouldn't understand.
3. It's my own subjective listening experiences.
Or is it actually all of the above?
I understand why you hold electrostats in such esteem, even budget rigs and vintage stats hold their own today. That said, if even the low end Stax and/or the ESP-950 are deemed Summit-fi, High End, ToTL, End Game, but the LCD2 and other headphones are not, there has to be a logical reason because these headphones cost more, have more demanding requirements and many users (including myself) subjectively prefer their sonic performance.
A compromise has already been floated in this thread, vis, adding a new sub-forum under High End Audio for the financial peak of the hobby and allow those headphones demoted to return to where they belong (as per the "Related Gear" and Buyers Guide). Are you willing to impliment this?
Exactly...there are no rules, no logic. Everybody comes with other explanations or assumptions, and some start contradicting themselves. I get it now...there is no reason other than "because i wanted to!"
, so there can be no logical arguments about it.
Where there is no logic, an engineer cannot stay, so I am out of the discussion, as it is pointless.
Well at least we got Currawong's official statement about what constitutes hi-end or not. It's like porn, he'll know it when he sees it-- in this case, he'll know it when he hears it.
Glad we got this out of the way, now we can continue on with our head-fi adventures.
No i haven't, but doesn't matter, the problem is that someone has decided what constitutes ''High end'' and it has pi$$ed some peoples off.Let me start by saying that as far as i'm concerned, i couldn't care less if one or more of my headphones got kiked out of ''Summit-FI'', why? simply because i refuse to get upset about a hobby that brings me so much pleasure and knowledge.
If i say to someone, mine sound better than yours, we're off to a bad start, but if i say, mine sound different than yours, we can have a respectfull discussion where we can both give ourselves credits when we make good points, and even if at the end, our arguments have failed to convince the other person to agree with us, we can still agree to disagree.
In my opinion, the only way out of this is to take the subjectivity out of the equation, we could take a vote on the criterias of what will be considered ''Summit-Fi''. I know that regardless of the outcome, some will still be pissed off that their headphones didn't make the 'big team', but at least, the majority will have decided, instead of one person.
Peoples seem to agree that price could be the deciding factor, so we could take a vote, on how much, say $990 + MSRP, so that we don't get caught with excluding headphones with a MSRP of say, $995.99.
It's easy to bitch about a situation, but it sure won't solve the problem. so, if someone else has a better idea, fire away.
than just elect a board to approve gear which are eligible to be in the summit-fi subforum, put it on a list, make it a rule, failing it to be a federal offence, as "simple" as that
the board members and head-fi can make a profit from it collecting bribes from manufacturers to put their gear on the list, and then invest some of it to make the site-forum-community a better place for everyone
i'll take 10% for the idea (intellectual propriety)
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