[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Samuels The Raptor is a tube headphone amp. It has a tube gain stage with a tube driver stage as buffers to drive the load "headphones" The power supply has a SS rectification & SS regulation but that does not make it a hybrid. A hybrid amp has either SS gain stage with tube output as a driver stage or tube gain stage with a SS out put stage as a buffer. Thanks. Ray Samuels

Hey Ray, thanks. Technical question for you if you don't mind (to Tyll as well). Is the purpose of using a tube gain stage to introduce some of the benefits of second harmonic distortion cleaner? i.e. why would you do this at the gain stage instead of the output stage?

I REALLY REALLY appreciate all of the feedback guys!

 

[shplorgh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor And your missing the point. The use of tubes is to INDUCE distortion in order to gain the euphonic qualities (to use Tyll's terms) of the smoother roll off of a vaccum tube. The whole attraction to tube is the second harmonic distortion it creates which gives it musical nature. Then by tube rolling, you can control somewhat how much "fuzz" you want inthe signal depending your likes and dislikes. I'm not saying this is bad, I'm just saying that the "hybrid" approach doesn't seem to me combine the best of both worlds. If your using a tube for let's say the power supply, so freak'n what, what does that do for you? Your still SS when it comes to the audio signal.

That is entirely untrue.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor Hey Ray, thanks. Technical question for you if you don't mind (to Tyll as well). Is the purpose of using a tube gain stage to introduce some of the benefits of second harmonic distortion cleaner? i.e. why would you do this at the gain stage instead of the output stage? I REALLY REALLY appreciate all of the feedback guys!

Tubes are wonderful for thier ability to impart euphonic 2nd harmonic distortion, but when used as an output stage they tend to be very finiky about the impedance of the load. You know, I'm sure, that tube amps tend to synergize, or not, depending on the headphones you plug into them. This is largely because tube output stages have a relatively high and reactive (meaning has large inductive or capacitive properties) output impedance. This characteristic makes their sound somewhat "load dependant. So while you can get "euphony" from a tube output, it's character varies from can to can.

If a designer want a specific sound from the tubes, but also want to get that sound independant upon what headphones they are driving, one solution would be to voice the input stage with tubes, but deliver the output through a low-distortion SS output. A SS output stage can be built with a very low and largely resistive output impedance so that it drives most headphones without being effected by their impedance characteristics, and it high linearity and low distortion is quite capable of passing the euphonically distorted signal from the tube section with out imparting too much additional distortion of its own (purists will want to add here that there will be some). That way the voicing of the tube stage can be delivered to a wider variety of cans.

As to the "Marketing Speak" nature of the word "Hybrid". While many of these term makes me wretch ("digital ready" being my favorite example of horse manure from marketers) I don't think this term falls into that catagory. It seems to me, first of all, that the term "hybrid" is likely to have mostly a negative connotation to audiophiles. But more importantly, when a company descides to build a hybrid amp, they couldn't legitimately call it simple a "tube amp" or "SS Amp" as that would be missleading. As a marketer and copy writer, I can tell you that efficiency of copy is extremely important---I often struggle to keep the word count of ad and web copy to a minimum. Using the term "hybrid" allows marketers to efficiently describe a design that has both tube and SS topologies. So I don't buy your impression that the term is either missleading or intentionally adds percieved value to the product. In fact, it probaly brings up more questions than it addresses. But sometimes you have only the space for 10 or 20 words to describe a product, so it seems to me not much different than the term "Single Ended", "Balanced", or "Class A" as all of these do not describe circuit designs with a unique topology. "Class A" may be the biggest offender here, and probably borders on marketing-speak to a much higher degree than "hybrid" as "class-A" is known to be a term with a very high attraction rating for audiophiles.

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens Tubes are wonderful for thier ability to impart euphonic 2nd harmonic distortion, but when used as an output stage they tend to be very finiky about the impedance of the load. You know, I'm sure, that tube amps tend to synergize, or not, depending on the headphones you plug into them. This is largely because tube output stages have a relatively high and reactive (meaning has large inductive or capacitive properties) output impedance. This characteristic makes their sound somewhat "load dependant. So while you can get "euphony" from a tube output, it's character varies from can to can.

Thats a really good point. I think you may have just defined technically the word "synergy" Tyll!!!!

Quote:

If a designer want a specific sound from the tubes, but also want to get that sound independant upon what headphones they are driving, one solution would be to voice the input stage with tubes, but deliver the output through a low-distortion SS output. A SS output stage can be built with a very low and largely resistive output impedance so that it drives most headphones without being effected by their impedance characteristics, and it high linearity and low distortion is quite capable of passing the euphonically distorted signal from the tube section with out imparting too much additional distortion of its own (purists will want to add here that there will be some). That way the voicing of the tube stage can be delivered to a wider variety of cans.

Wait so my theory is correct then Tyll. In the "hybrid" approach, you add the "euphoric" effect (it seems the word distortion gets people upset due to its negative connotation) and then use SS on the output stage to preserve the effect as much as possible without inducing more change by the output stage. See to me though, this is really a tube amp since the heart of the concept is to inherit the "musical" nature of tubes through the chain. Its just using some SS components to sort of govern the effect. Its a nice a design and I can definitely see a lot of interesting beneficial side effects fo doing it this way (cost being one since SS components are cheaper and easier to get).

Quote:

As to the "Marketing Speak" nature of the word "Hybrid". While many of these term makes me wretch ("digital ready" being my favorite example of horse manure from marketers) I don't think this term falls into that catagory. It seems to me, first of all, that the term "hybrid" is likely to have mostly a negative connotation to audiophiles. But more importantly, when a company descides to build a hybrid amp, they couldn't legitimately call it simple a "tube amp" or "SS Amp" as that would be missleading. As a marketer and copy writer, I can tell you that efficiency of copy is extremely important---I often struggle to keep the word count of ad and web copy to a minimum. Using the term "hybrid" allows marketers to efficiently describe a design that has both tube and SS topologies. So I don't buy your impression that the term is either missleading or intentionally adds percieved value to the product. In fact, it probaly brings up more questions than it addresses. But sometimes you have only the space for 10 or 20 words to describe a product, so it seems to me not much different than the term "Single Ended", "Balanced", or "Class A" as all of these do not describe circuit designs with a unique topology. "Class A" may be the biggest offender here, and probably borders on marketing-speak to a much higher degree than "hybrid" as "class-A" is known to be a term with a very high attraction rating for audiophiles.

Got it. Okay, I'm being harsh - I'm having a rough morning at work. Its not entirely market speak as I suggested. Yea, sometimes I don't empathsize with the marketing guys who need to describe their entire architecture in 10 words of less. Hybrid is a fair term though yea, as a self-appointed "audiophile" it does have a sort of negative feel to it.

Thanks guys for the explanation....at least I know what the heck amp manufactures are talking about when they say hybrid design...

 

[bhd812]

the question is if Ray would ever make a "HYBRID" amp what would it be called?

Hybrid in Ray terms would mean a hovering fighter plane so an "AV-8B Harrier" or the newer "F-35"....


either way I call number one on it...



LOL
J/K

 

[akwok]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhd812 the question is if Ray would ever make a "HYBRID" amp what would it be called? Hybrid in Ray terms would mean a hovering fighter plane so an "AV-8B Harrier" or the newer "F-35".... either way I call number one on it... LOL J/K

Pretty much a given you would..

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor See to me though, this is really a tube amp since the heart of the concept is to inherit the "musical" nature of tubes through the chain.

But if I were to call a Hybrid amp a tube amp, without qualification, there would be a LOT of purists who would scream and yell that it's not. And calling it a SS amp wouldn't do justice to the intentional added euphony of the tubes. So what to call it? Hybrid!

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens But if I were to call a Hybrid amp a tube amp, without qualification, there would be a LOT of purists who would scream and yell that it's not. And calling it a SS amp wouldn't do justice to the intentional added euphony of the tubes. So what to call it? Hybrid!

Too true. Its my die-hard SS mentality creeping through again. Thanks again Tyll for the explanation, comes much appreciated.

 

[drarthurwells]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor It doesn't mean anything with respect to circuit design therefore I'm skeptical of the word. And your missing the point. The use of tubes is to INDUCE distortion in order to gain the euphonic qualities (to use Tyll's terms) of the smoother roll off of a vaccum tube. The whole attraction to tube is the second harmonic distortion it creates which gives it musical nature. Then by tube rolling, you can control somewhat how much "fuzz" you want inthe signal depending your likes and dislikes. I'm not saying this is bad, I'm just saying that the "hybrid" approach doesn't seem to me combine the best of both worlds. If your using a tube for let's say the power supply, so freak'n what, what does that do for you? Your still SS when it comes to the audio signal. If the output stage uses tube, to me, its a tube amp regardless of whether transistors are used for power supply or voltage gain. The reason why I said it was "marketecture" was I don't see the inherit advantage of using a tubed based circuit in the input stage or for other secondary functions (for lack of jargon). Can someone please explain to me HOW a "hybrid" amp is the best of both worlds? Inquiring minds would like to know. Btw, thanks Tyll, Hirsch for the explanations. It comes much appreciated.

Tubes do better with tone body resolution - more richness of, and resolution of nuances, in timbre. This varies from tube to tube - some are too rich and some are solid state like in being lean.

SS does better with tone edge resolution and has a lean tone body.

Hybrids give me the best of both - my all tube preamp and all solid state amp give me great tone body and great tone edge resolution, as does the Bada PH12 headphone amp.

 

[machead]

Tyll,

Your explanation in post #18 combined the flair and common touch of a great marketing guy with a depth of understanding that belongs in the design department. Bravo! I believe this "best of both worlds" performance entitles you to be considered a hybrid.

(I hasten to add that, for me, the term lacks the negative connotations some of our more purist audiophile friends might be tempted to attribute to it!)

 

[00940]

Hybrid are not all about adding euphony with a gain/buffering stage. The Audiovalve RKV for example is doing exactly the opposite of what most hybrids do. It uses an opamp for voltage gain and tubes as a buffer enclosed in the feedback loop.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by machead Bravo! I believe this "best of both worlds" performance entitles you to be considered a hybrid.

I prefer "slurry", but comming from someone who is capable of far more technically competent discourse, I'm flattered.

 

[drarthurwells]

People who knock hybrids just don't realize the sublime advantages of hermaphroditism.

 

[machead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00940 Hybrid are not all about adding euphony with a gain/buffering stage. The Audiovalve RKV for example is doing exactly the opposite of what most hybrids do. It uses an opamp for voltage gain and tubes as a buffer enclosed in the feedback loop.

Good point! One wonders what Dr. Becker had in mind when he came up with that topology. On the face of it, his circuit accomplishes little that could not be achieved with an all solid state design. Since the tubes are inside a global feedback loop whose forward characteristics are dominated by an op-amp, they would not be expected to have much influence on the overall sonic signature; yet most listeners comment on its "tube-like" midrange. Is this just a placebo effect born out of ignorance concerning its architecture?

A similar circuit arrangement---SS input, tube output---can be found in some of the Stax and Gilmore electrostatic headphone drivers. Those who have compared the all solid state KGSS/SRM-313/717 with their hybrid KGBH/SRM-006t/007t peers generally express definite preferences based on the usual SS vs tube attributes. Mind you, all these amps have less global feedback than the RKV, so any "tubey" characteristics would be less concealed.

 

[machead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens I prefer "slurry", but coming from someone who is capable of far more technically competent discourse, I'm flattered.

I must admit, "slurry" does come to mind when watching you dance; but there is little evidence of slurring when you express yourself verbally.