What happened to the Shure E4 group buy thread?

[n_maher]

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Originally Posted by gsferrari Tyll - if you take the public's money you are accountable for what is done with it.

No, in my opinion, he's not. As far as I'm concerned the financial details of Head-Fi are Jude's and jude's alone. He doesn't have to share unless he wants to. If someone doesn't like the fact that they can't see directly where their money is going they don't have to donate. Some one with a greater knowledge of the law can either back me up or correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as I know donations on a voluteer basis are done with the knowledge that what they are spent on is at Jude's descretion. Heck, even if this was a membership only site that required a payment, I'm still not sure he's required to report to anyone. As I see it, we've entered into a "good-faith" relationship with Jude with the hope that money donated to Head-Fi is in fact being spent on Head-Fi. I for one am confident that it is.

My 0.02 and probably worth less,

Nate

 

[gsferrari]

Ive probably said enough to get banned so I am going to shut up...things will work out...

 

[vranswer]

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Originally Posted by masper I find it all rather amusing about the fuss kicked up by this revising of Group Buy regulations. I am a bit of a Newbie here, and I have read plenty on the subject, and, for example, tried to get into the E4C Group Buy Thread. I am unsure how the demographics of Head-Fi pan out but I would guess that the Rules will vary in effectiveness depending on the product involved. I would, for example, think the Rules proposed by Jude would not be particularly effective in terms of the E4c purchase. I understand the importance of Group Buys, but with this tightening of control, I dont see where they will fit in anymore. While I do not doubt the need to keep hold of your Sponsrs, I do think that the rules may be somewhat too stringent and not flexible enough. The reasons why I would believe these new regulations would not work on the E4c are simple: lets look at the aspects of this particular deal: - most of those involved will, I would guess, be non-purist non-audiophiles. I am not doubting that some true audiophiles will purchase the E4s, but looking at both their marketing (iPod oriented) and the very product itself (i.e. mid-range canalphone with emphasis on comfort and build quality and 'fun' sound over, e.g. ER4s) I would guess that most people involved in the purchasing of these will be Younger members/Students or those who have not previously invested huge amounts of money in this hobby. - the price factors here are such that the lowest prices can be found, not via a group buy, but rather on an individual basis. I personally opted out of the Group Buy and used Rahel's coupon to get the earphones for 178. I doubt whether a group buy could have forced this below 170, although it is possible and had the system been more organised and clearer I may have well participated (I also had issues regarding the time it would take to get the whole thing sorted). However, my reduction from Rahel's voucher (which would be difficult to find outside of the Head-Fi forum, I believe) was $20. Having saved up for a number of weeks for this amount of money (being a poor 17-year-old student) this amount of reduction was great. I understand that such reductions should not dictate the Forum and its guidelines, though I would expect that people would find other mediums of finding cheap places to purchase the earphones. Therefore, I am not doubting that there has to be some controls over the way the system is regulated, and indeed this may increase the numbers of participants in a group buy (safer, clearer purchases). However, the system you propose would substantially decrease the necessity for Group Buys. I wouldn't be surprised if they die out all together for Lower-Range products. It would be problematic for the Forum if this occured, as fresh members would be dissuaded from joining (many joined I am sure simply because of the Group Buy). For higher-range Group Buys, I doubt there would be enough people motivated enough to make such pricey purchases in bulk, and even if they are willing to, the dissuading factors of increased hassle and delay would negate any monetary savings. I think the issue is simple: for most Group Buys, either they must be lesser regulated than is proposed (a simple system whereby there would be no fee for advertising, but Sponsers would be chosen above others if other factors were roughly equal) or Group Buys will fall apart all together. It appears as though the latter choice has been selected, and I think this would be a real shame, as it motivated more people to get involved in this Hobby and it also promotes a sense of unity amongst Head-Fi'ers. Btw, though I have but one post to my name, I do think it would be beneficial if there was greater transparency in terms of the finances of this site. If it really is in dire need of money, then I'm sure many people would stump up more money if this was indicated. Call me selfish, but at the moment I wouldnt have thought this Forum was in serious problems, simply because of the number of sponsers and the huge numbers of relatively-weathly middle class men involved in this hobby. Finally, though I respect Jude's authority, I dont think it is particularly progressive to state that nobody should argue about this and we should all just agree with Jude. I think Jude himself would agree that he takes the opinions of the members of this forum (probably less so those who have but one post to their name ) very seriously, and I think he indeed my find it worrying that there is appears an increasing disparity between his role as admin and the members that make this hobby what it is. Just my 2pence.

Wheww. Quite a first post. I vote we stage a coup d 'etat and install the 17-year old student as the new, albeit presumptuous, HeadFi dictator

.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

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Originally Posted by gsferrari I am going to shut up...things will work out...

Now your getting the idea. That's all I'm looking for: a little grace for Jude so he has some space to work on stuff without flames going on around him as he tries to find a way to get his best shot at an equitable group buy policy for us all to look at.

 

[masper]

I dont think anybody has questioned whether Jude uses the funds he gets from donators in anything but the most proper manners. To do so would be ridiculous, as we can see how much as Jude as put into this forum, and even some going back to him would be ok considering the amount of time he invests. However, if it is true that sponsers are vitally needed than this may be supported by the figures that indicate this. Otherwise, I doubt many people would think that this forum with all its sponsers and middle-aged well off men could be on the verge of collapse due to lack of funds.

 

[Zanth]

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Originally Posted by gsferrari Tyll - if you take the public's money you are accountable for what is done with it. I am not ashamed of saying that I contributed the minimum amount - the point is...that much of my money is with HeadFi and I want to know if more is needed or if we have met the financial goals for this "cycle" No need for an AUDIT per se... Something like - Financial goals for 2005: Money raised so far: Money spent on <categories>: Money from Sponsors: Money from Members: Money from <other - group buys etc.> Just so people know what is going on. As for backing away from the keyboard : if you dont like what you are hearing - look away.

Oh come on...

First of all...this is not a publically traded company.

Second...any money coming in from members is in the form of donations. Of which all donations were then "compensated" with Head-fi gear.

Third...Jude has previously indicated the cost of the rack space and bandwidth. Head-fi has never broken even.

Fourth...money exchanged between sponsors and Jude should remain private. It has nothing to do with the members.

Fifth...IF Jude's intent was to make a profit from this site, he would have implemented actual money making methods, such as mandatory membership fees. He has not, this should indicate his "financial goals" indefinitely. Frankly, the fact that anyone would demand an audit or whatever you choose to call it...for a FREE site...is tasteless, repugnant, overbearing and just plain dumb.

 

[masper]

I don't think the aim of such information being released is an attempt to drive Jude to even more work, nor has anyone demanded, as such, that it is vital that such information is released to members. The intention of those who would want such information is not to, I dont know, snoop on whats happening so we can complain about the usages of our lovely donations (or lack thereof). They are purely and simply there to help Jude in his finances, as any publishing of figures that indicate problems would surely motivate members to make a contribution.

Also, if the sight is in a seriously problematic financial situation (which I am unsure is the case), the publishing of goals could be the very strategy that would radically create a movement towards achieving this target, which would lead to increased donations and a greater sense of unity amongst the members.

However, if Jude doesnt want to post the figures free then so be it, I just think it would ease tension on Jude to constantly look for new deals.

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First of all...this is not a publically traded company.

I don't see how this is relevent, people are purely curious about the runnings of this operation and want to see the number of contributions grow. I dont think anyone thinks this is a publicly traded company.

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Fourth...money exchanged between sponsors and Jude should remain private. It has nothing to do with the members.

Perhaps, but that is something for Jude and the Sponsers to explain. We are not talking about an in-depth look at the discussions between the Sponsers and Jude, we are simply saying it may be useful to indicate the broad spendings in particular fields in order to gain an insight into the way the website is run, again for the benefit of the website, not because we want to ... I am not actually sure what you believe the motivations are.

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Frankly, the fact that anyone would demand an audit or whatever you choose to call it...for a FREE site...is tasteless, repugnant, overbearing and just plain dumb.

Well thats just a bit silly. No-one here has demanded an audit. What is being suggested is fundamentally different, in scope and motivation, to an audit. To suggest otherwise would be "just plain dumb". To suggest that I, for example, have some alterior motive, and am focussed on extracting some gain from the situation is "repugnant". To make such pointless insults with no explanation nor ostensible direction is "tasteless". The continous flurry of posts that seek to belittle people suggesting the possible use of increased financial transparence is "overbearing".

 

[gsferrari]

How about if we know how much "MORE" is needed to break even...maybe we can do something about it.

 

[Zanth]

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Originally Posted by masper I don't think the aim of such information being released is an attempt to drive Jude to even more work, nor has anyone demanded, as such, that it is vital that such information is released to members.

No it is not vital in any way.

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The intention of those who would want such information is not to, I dont know, snoop on whats happening so we can complain about the usages of our lovely donations (or lack thereof). They are purely and simply there to help Jude in his finances, as any publishing of figures that indicate problems would surely motivate members to make a contribution.

I see you have recently registered. I'll forgive you then your ignorance. In fact, Jude has been quite forthcoming about his finances. It took years for Jude to accept the fact that he would need help from the members. It was the membership who pushed!! Finally he said, fine...please contribute, Head-fi needs the cash. Head-fi costs me XX amount every year and is only increasing. 25000 or so members, 300 or so have stepped up and contributed. The financial situation was revealed and members who felt like helping did so. It is now nearly a year since, and it is not as if there is a landslide of folks throwing money at him. A full disclosure of Head-fi finances will in no way institute some new found influx on a grand scale.

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Also, if the sight is in a seriously problematic financial situation (which I am unsure is the case), the publishing of goals could be the very strategy that would radically create a movement towards achieving this target, which would lead to increased donations and a greater sense of unity amongst the members.

THe need for cash was addressed a year ago. Again see above. There have been few who have contributed. Jude's goals ahve been clear, let's break even. Turning a profit has not been on his mind.

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However, if Jude doesnt want to post the figures free then so be it, I just think it would ease tension on Jude to constantly look for new deals.

I don't follow in the least. This entire thread is not about Jude making money from Group Buys, it is about ensuring that folks don't get hurt and sponsors are not burned by having blatant advertizing in open forums from other manufacturers under the guise of a group deal.


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I don't see how this is relevent, people are purely curious about the runnings of this operation and want to see the number of contributions grow. I dont think anyone thinks this is a publicly traded company.

If they want to see contributions grow they can click the link at the to of any page and pay Head-fi via paypal, cheque, mo etc. The fact that full disclosure is somehow needed to secure contributions or cause some new influx is assinine, moreover, the expectation of full disclosure of finances from a privately run site which is FREE is just unbelievable! No one needs to see it!! Jude isn't demanding anything!!! Please help out, that is all he is asking. The ONLY concession I would make is that some form of financial disclosure be available to those contributing members, but really, since they are immediately compensated by Head-fi gear and they know they are helping, I don't think this is a reasonable demand, however feasible or not.



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Perhaps, but that is something for Jude and the Sponsers to explain. We are not talking about an in-depth look at the discussions between the Sponsers and Jude, we are simply saying it may be useful to indicate the broad spendings in particular fields in order to gain an insight into the way the website is run, again for the benefit of the website, not because we want to ... I am not actually sure what you believe the motivations are.

I am not sure what the motivations are at all. I can't understand how Jude throwing up financial data is somehow going to help the site out de facto. That is, I doubt it will have any benefit, though Jude could answer that better than I. I'm more concerned about the demands placed on Jude to print this info for the membership, again for a free site.



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Well thats just a bit silly. No-one here has demanded an audit. What is being suggested is fundamentally different, in scope and motivation, to an audit. To suggest otherwise would be "just plain dumb".

What is being suggested is a budgetary report, a financial anaylsis of the inner workings of Head-fi and the future goals of the organization. THose all fall withint the scope of an audit. The fact that it could be termed other, is simply beating around the bush. What was wanted was full financial disclosure. In essence an audit. Tyll hit it on the head. CAll it what you want, but Guru was fishing for detials which he is simply not entitled to, nor is anyone here in my opinion.

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To suggest that I, for example, have some alterior motive, and am focussed on extracting some gain from the situation is "repugnant". To make such pointless insults with no explanation nor ostensible direction is "tasteless". The continous flurry of posts that seek to belittle people suggesting the possible use of increased financial transparence is "overbearing".

I never indicated any gain or the seeking of such gain by any member. Thank you for putting words in my mouth. Nor did I actually reference any of your posts so you are simply picking a fight. Finally, there was not a single pointless insult. I had a strict point for each word used thank you very much. As for your final sentence, well frankly, it has been addressed. Step up, contribute, put your money where your mouth is and then maybe you have a bit more clout for demanding transparency.

 

[Zanth]

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Originally Posted by gsferrari How about if we know how much "MORE" is needed to break even...maybe we can do something about it.

Jude listed he was 20k in debt? Last year? Look at the numbers...300 or so members have contributed. If all had contributed 100+ then he would be out of debt. That is not the case. This year he has seen a boom in membership and pages served. We can expect the cost to be much more now...yet still members have not contributed. How we can do something, is by repeatedly mentioning to members that this site is pretty kick ass and that it warrants a few bucks a year to support it. If every member donated 1 dollar a year, I think Jude would be in the black.

 

[rickcr42]

guys/folks.this as with everything else will work itself out in the time required to do it right.to rush into a totally new policy and THEN try to fix it is coming at it backwards so this will take whatever time is required to make it work and blend in seamlessly with the daily operations of Head-fi.

Be aware the moderators are all volunteers and not only we but Jude have a life outside of these forums and any new wrinkle will mean one or more of the mods will also have to take on additional responsibility to make it work.we do try to spread the duties but when someone volunteers for special duty they should receive a clap on the back and not get a hard time for doing the best they can in a timely manner.

this will work itself out and you can all have your headphones but it is just a little bit unfeeling to only consider what you want and when you want it without considering the position of the others involved-in this case the head-fi staff who always needs to explain every little detail or all hell breaks loose.

Patience people.It really is a virtue worth pursuing

thank you

Rickmonsterator Supremus Rex out

 

[bLue_oNioN]

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Originally Posted by Welly Wu Sure, I want to pay the lowest price for any Head-Fi related equipment from the most reputable seller possible, but I can and will pay the extra $10 USD for a Head-Fi sponsored group buy if it means that it will help Jude keep this place running. Think about that Amazon link: if you click on it, a small amount of the items that you purchase will go back to Head-Fi. How is that any different than a newly formed Head-Fi Group Buy?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but there is a logical fallacy here. With the Amazon link, you pay just as much as you would have paid without clicking the referral link. It is the referral, not an additional sum you pay, that generates revenue for Head-Fi. With the new Group Buy Policy in place, companies must pay a fee that may offset a large portion of possible profit. To compensate, prices must be raised, effectively passing the Head-Fi Group Buy Fee down to those who participate in the Group Buy. Do you see the difference? In your first example, we don't pay more. In your second, we do pay more.

As for whether or not there should be a fee, I suppose it is inevitable. Jude has no choice but to be strict in maintaining structure -- if Group Buys become a loophole companies exploit to create free advertising for themselves, there is much less incentive to pay for Sponsor status. Sponsor fees are obviously very much responsible for keeping Head-Fi afloat.

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Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens How can you say that?! Without Head-Fi there is no deal, no group buy. Do you have ANY idea what Jude pays for rack space and bandwidth? Head-Fi has a LOT to do with providing the place to hold a group buy. Does a conference center not rightly expect a return on the conferences that are held there, even if they don't contribute to the conference other than the space. It really saddens me that you can even say such a thing..

Tyll, I think there is a very distinctive difference between Head-Fi and a conference center in the sense that without the generosity of Head-Fi'ers who take the time to write reviews and advise newcomers, there is no Head-Fi. People come here because we members give time and energy into helping them, and for free. In fact, members who are contributors are essentially going so far as paying to help others. Do we receive in the form of opinions from others? Yes, we do. But we all give as well, and that clearly separates Head-Fi from a conference center IMO. To draw an analogy with a conference center, you would have to state that the people who attend were also the people who poured the concrete, laid the bricks, clean the urinals, and mop the floor.

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Originally Posted by Zanth Third...Jude has previously indicated the cost of the rack space and bandwidth. Head-fi has never broken even.

I may be mistaken, but according this post by Jude it has.

 

[Zanth]

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Originally Posted by bLue_oNioN I may be mistaken, but according this post by Jude it has.

Expected cost: $26000 minimum, more like 33000.
Total projected income for said period: 29000

So if all the money he projected is in fact in or will be, and the minimum cost (did he expect the huge jump in membership when making this estimate?) then he has 3k left over for next fiscal year, otherwise if not...and 33000 is the right amount or worse...MORE then well, you see the numbers, 4k in debt at least.

Regardless of what it is, he is barely making it. Yet he keeps the site going with wicked hardware on a good fast line. I for one am pleased as punch for this commitment from him...for again..a free site

 

[masper]

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No it is not vital in any way.

Well we are all in agreement then.


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I see you have recently registered. I'll forgive you then your ignorance. In fact, Jude has been quite forthcoming about his finances. It took years for Jude to accept the fact that he would need help from the members. It was the membership who pushed!! Finally he said, fine...please contribute, Head-fi needs the cash. Head-fi costs me XX amount every year and is only increasing. 25000 or so members, 300 or so have stepped up and contributed. The financial situation was revealed and members who felt like helping did so. It is now nearly a year since, and it is not as if there is a landslide of folks throwing money at him. A full disclosure of Head-fi finances will in no way institute some new found influx on a grand scale.

The very fact that I have not seen it, nor has the other notable contributor doesnt indicate that its well publicised, nor particularly 'forthcoming'. If you want members to know about this information, then it has to be available! No-one has asked for full disclosure!!!! I dont think I am ignorant because I have not incidentally read the information disclosed a year ago about the matter.

I would assume the very fact that Jude did disclose his funds was so that he thought it would help with the situation. Are you saying that he shouldnt have done so, as it was a pointless task?

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I don't follow in the least. This entire thread is not about Jude making money from Group Buys, it is about ensuring that folks don't get hurt and sponsors are not burned by having blatant advertizing in open forums from other manufacturers under the guise of a group deal.

My point was purely that the attempts to request the possibility of greater financial transparency could increase the donation levels and therefore lead to a lesser dependence on Sponsers, which surely everyone would agree is the best thing. In any case, I would find it rather odd if donation rates decreased after the simplistic aspects of the finances of the site were clearly posted.

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No one needs to see it!! Jude isn't demanding anything!!! Please help out, that is all he is asking.

No need to get worked up, we're all in agreement! No has said we need to see it, that it is vital (I thought this was made clear about 5 posts ago). This is an effort to help Jude, by easing financial pressures.

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What is being suggested is a budgetary report, a financial anaylsis of the inner workings of Head-fi and the future goals of the organization. THose all fall withint the scope of an audit. The fact that it could be termed other, is simply beating around the bush. What was wanted was full financial disclosure. In essence an audit. Tyll hit it on the head. CAll it what you want, but Guru was fishing for detials which he is simply not entitled to, nor is anyone here in my opinion.

Ha. This is ludicrous. If by saying how much many perhaps could be needed for the upkeep of the sight is synonymous with 'Auditing', well then the accounting implicatins would be quite interesting. A simply process of knowing the input and output of the sight, in a very rough fashion would perhaps aid further donations. Considering he has yet to even make a donation, I would be interested if the members involved think they are 'entitled' to knowing what is going on. They perhaps think they are 'entitled' to offer suggestions on how to better the forum, without being ripped apart and said to be 'dumb' 'repugnant', and all sorts of other things. I dont think Jude would take offence with people trying to offer him suggestions on how he could perhaps generate more donations. In fact, I think he would be offended if such suggestions were repressed or irrationally discarded without his word.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, in fact the very nature of my posts have been such that I have passively suggested the possibility (as I think were the other posters intentions) of releasing figures in order to help out this forum. To see that I am trying to pick a fight is quite odd, considering my motivations have been purely to try and improve this site (as were the other posters. The fact that you did not directly quote my post is irrelavent, considering you indicated that what was being demanded was an audit. While we agree that demanding an audit would be dumb etc. (w/e you said), no-one demanded such a thing. I think you are putting words into other peoples mouths, but no matter, no need for anybody to adopt an agressive tone! We are all here to improve this wonderful community.

Incidetnally, I see no reason why simply because I have no donated would be reason to dismiss my suggestions for ways to convince, people like me, to donate. I have a finite amount of money and I will donate to this site if it needs money, and currently I dont think it is being expressly made clear that it does to a level which warrents a £700 per year student contributing to a sight which has dozens of Sponsers and is run by relatively-wealthy middle-aged men!

*EDIT* looking at Jude's post, it appears as thought he agrees that indicating rough expendetures/input funds is a useful task. Making a clearer system for viewing such figures may persuade users like me part with their cash. I am already in debt so I am not sure I can donate at the moment, perhaps there could be another way of donating instead of the purely monetary?

 

[kyrie]

Just a comment on the argument that the decrease in group-buys may decrease the number of members who join because of them, as well as gsferrari's (rather controversial) statement that "The backbone of HeadFi is the FS section...without it this hobby is finished..."

I would like to believe, and I think many others as well, that Head-fi is more than just a place you come to to get good deals on equipment. Yes, group buys are great. The F/S forum is very nice. But those are just extras, at least to me, of the Head-fi community, which I view as a place of constructive (and oftentimes unconstructive) discussion.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the amount of criticism Jude is getting about this new policy is just...ridiculous. After all, it's just money! Yes, I know, some of us are poor students, and $10 or $20 means a lot to them. In fact, I am one of those poor students who would go to great lengths to save a few bucks. But I don't come to Head-fi for that reason. I don't stay at Head-fi for that reason. I didn't register here, nor have kept on posting, for that reason.

I don't doubt that many people have registered at Head-fi just to participate in the group buy, or to post on the F/S forum, but I wonder how much they have contributed to this community?

What sense of "unity" is there in financial gain? Unity comes from sharing a similar interest, and talking about it with each other. So let's why don't we all shut our trap, and go back to discussing our common love - not finance, but headphones?