What first - Power conditioning or replacement PCs?

Nov 6, 2005 at 9:26 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 22

mattigol

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Hi all,

and esp. thanks to markl for his extensive writeup on replacement PC's. I'd like to ask two noob's questions: When starting out improving the power supply chain, would you begin with some sort of power conditioner or with replacement cables? Is there a way to measure how "noisy" or "dirty" my AC is?

Cheers: Matthias
 
Nov 6, 2005 at 11:32 AM Post #2 of 22
I would definitely go with power conditioning before replacing my powercord. But power conditioning only helps if you have "dirty" power to start with. In my case, having a power conitioner and getting a dedicated line for my audio equipment didnt help out, so im assuming I have relatively clean power to start with or that my home amp and CD player come with really great power supplies.

I've also tried a few PCs which worth are worth under $100 bucks and I've got to say I doesn't help out much with the SQ of my system either. Its usually a hit or miss thing. Some people get great gains with power conditioning and PCs while others dont see any improvement so try it out yourself, but I would definitely try to condition my power first before changing my powercord.
 
Nov 6, 2005 at 2:19 PM Post #3 of 22
My experience with power conditioning is limited to budget units within the $150-$550 range, very few models, so I don't consider myself an expert on power conditioning. My chief purpose in getting those units was to find good surge protection for my expesnive gear, and if there were power conditioning benefits on top of that, great.

At that price level, it's been a matter of finding the one that harms the sound the least, rather than the one that improves it most. A couple of the conditioners I tried did "choke" the sound somewhat, as some conditioners have a reputation for doing. With conditioning, you are *subtracting* and *filtering* AC, so what you put in is not what you get out, and that *can* have a negative impact. There are a number of audio manufacturers who want their products plugged directly into the wall, and there are even more makers of power cords who also want them plugged in the wall, not a conditioner. It is often the case that many power conditioners limit the amount of current available to your gear, a situation which *can* become a problem with big beefy multi-watt amps and receivers.

I have no doubt, there are models out there (particularly at the upper end) that achieve conditioning without negatives and can improve sound quality dramatically (in audio terms for "dramatically" anyway). As was mentioned, though, the degree of potential upside depends on the degree of "pollution" in your AC.

I can recommend the cheap Monster Powerbar PB1100 as great surge suppression (and conditioning) without any sonic signature I could detect. You can pick one up on the net for around $130. Nice product.

IMO, given my admittedly limited experience with power conditioning, adding aftermarket power cords is a more reliable way to tweak the sound (sometimes for the worse in one or more areas, many times for the better in one or more areas) than cheap conditioning. YMMV.
 
Nov 6, 2005 at 4:47 PM Post #4 of 22
Power conditioning is a bit controversial.Its main purpose is to protect your gear during a power surge or a thunder storm.Many feel that it is next to worthless at extreme cases.During a bad thunder storm your best insurance is to unplug your gear.
 
Nov 6, 2005 at 7:43 PM Post #5 of 22
I live in NY and have found power conditioning and aftermarket power cords to be highly beneficial in my system. I used to use the Power Wedge 116 in my main rig (now used for my headphone set up with an Ultimate Outlet) and it was good for what it was 10 years ago. I think the isolation transformers were probably a limiting factor. I came to find large parallel filtering provided greater benefit than the use of isolation transformers, which are current limited (and will burn out with too great a continued draw.)

I used to use ESP Essence Power Cords throughout my system - I had tried Synergistic Research Reference which had great rhythm but too small a soundstage, 1st generation Electraglides which increased dynamics to an incredible level but had almost too lush a midrange - the ESPs were the best balanced in terms of overall performance, and I opted for "neutrality". These days, I've been won over by the sound my system produces using the PS Audio line of gear. I've heard improvements using the unlikeliest of tweaks, the Power Port. Using this duplex outlet on my dedicated line, the noise floor drops & grain is reduced - it's quite surprising. I use the Power Director 4.7 in conjunction with parallel filters plugged into adjacent outlets. I almost opted for a P500 Power Plant, but it didn't offer enough outlets for my entire system. A PS Audio xStream Statement feeds the Power Director and each component of my system (with the exception of the turntable.) I normally try to avoid cables with PVC sheathing (I find they produce smeared sound relative to the treble & timing with interconnects and AES/EBU) but have to say the Statements with the ferrite impregnated PVC help quite a bit. The PVC is kept relatively far from the conductors and is not the dielectric that comes directly in contact with metal. A friend of mine uses the Shunyata Hydra system, and he consistently gets great sound. I might try some of his Shunyata cords at some point, but I'm very pleased with the xStream Statement cables - they may very well be the best power cords I've tried in the last 10 years. I know markl cared for the PS Audio power cord he tried in his shootout the least of all - I haven't tried the one he used, so can't offer any thoughts.

While incremental improvements can be heard as you do things bit by bit, a sound system needs to be treated as a system, as a whole; I've come to feel power conditioning and power cords have to come hand in hand. That said, I understand overhauling everything at once may not be a realistic or practical consideration. I agree with most of what markl had to say, but if upgrading in stages, I would recommend conditioning first, so that the entire system benefits. Then treat source, amp and preamp. Depending on the power supplies in your gear, you might find more dramatic differences popping a cord on the amp first. If you condition your entire system first, it might make it easier to hear the improvements the cords make afterwards.

Best bang for the buck might be a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet, which uses a balun to cancel noise on your line. The improvement is clearly audible. You can probably get one used in the $200-250 range.

There used to be a product that you could plug into your AC line that amplified the noise so you could hear it. I think it was called the Sniffer. A friend of mine picked one up to play with, but I don't know how practical it really is once you know you've got noisy lines. Better to clean your juice and just use your ears and listen. Some people insist on not trying things firsthand because of what they think they know, forgetting they might not know enough. Let your ears be the judge.

*Edit*

The Noise Sniffer:

http://www.audioprism.com/noisesniffer.html
 
Nov 6, 2005 at 8:22 PM Post #6 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Wong
Best bang for the buck might be a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet, which uses a balun to cancel noise on your line. The improvement is clearly audible. You can probably get one used in the $200-250 range.


Every PS Audio upgrade has made a night and day difference in my system. I would upgrade in this order:

1) High Current Ultimate Outlet
2) Power Port in wall
3) Power Plant (put High Current Ultimate Outlet between wall and Power Plant)
4) xStream Statement Power Cables (to everything)
5) QuickSilver Contact Enhancer (to everything)
6) MultiWave II+

This way you get the most for the money and don't need to replace anything when upgrading.
If you get a standard Ultimate Outlet ($100 cheaper) it won't be good enough to connect the Power Plant to it.
 
Nov 6, 2005 at 9:19 PM Post #8 of 22
Most audiophiles don't recommend using UPS systems for audio though.
 
Nov 7, 2005 at 2:19 AM Post #9 of 22
Start with a power conditioner such as Balanced Power Technologies: http://www.b-p-t.com . This is one of the very few manufacturers that don't invoke any of the preconceived notions of power conditioning that it does more harm than good. Read the professional reviews of their various units. A BPT power conditioner can work wonders with most hi-fi systems out there at a competitive price. I remember when I sent in my Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi to ModWright LLC for heavy and extensive aftermarket modifications. All I had as a replacement source was a sorry ass Panasonic DV-RP82 DVD-Audio/Video player. It even had the dreaded drive spindle H02 error so I had to upgrade the firmware so it wouldn't skip so much on Red Book CDs. When I plugged the unit directly into the wall, I heard a very harsh and digital sound. When I plugged it into my heavily modded BPT unit and custom BPT AC cord, the sound took on greater definition, density, clarity, and resolution without trying to make the RP-82 sound like a Lexicon or Bel Canto Design either.

Power cords, in my opinion, should follow power conditioners because everybody can reap the rewards of clean and balanced power conditioning. The stuff really does work very well and it works even better for video equipment such as digital HDTVs, projectors, DVD-Video players, etc. Balanced and clean power conditioning is fundamental to high performance and high end AV equipment because it makes your existing gear shine.

Stay away from UPS because it generates square instead of sine waves -- except APC UPS gear designed for home theater applications. That will cost a pretty penny, but it will give your expensive AV equipment limited backup power so you can execute a safe shutdown of each individual piece of gear.
 
Nov 8, 2005 at 1:18 AM Post #10 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by Welly Wu
Power cords, in my opinion, should follow power conditioners because everybody can reap the rewards of clean and balanced power conditioning. The stuff really does work very well and it works even better for video equipment such as digital HDTVs, projectors, DVD-Video players, etc. Balanced and clean power conditioning is fundamental to high performance and high end AV equipment because it makes your existing gear shine.

Stay away from UPS because it generates square instead of sine waves -- except APC UPS gear designed for home theater applications. That will cost a pretty penny, but it will give your expensive AV equipment limited backup power so you can execute a safe shutdown of each individual piece of gear.



Actually, balanced power is not much of importance. It's there because it simplifies the output circuitry of a line conditioner or UPS. It's a lot easier to make a circuit that outputs from 0 to 170v on one side and repeat that on the other side, than to make one that does +-170v.
In fact, it could double the chances of a catastrophic failure because while nothing should happen if neutral shorts to ground in a normal circuit, the same fault would short out the supply in a balanced circuit.
And note that if your equipment can accept 240v as well as 120v, 240v is already balanced (in the US).
BTW, one trick I've heard is to find a large (>40uF) unpolarized capacitor (try appliance repair stores; those capacitors are commonly used in A/C equipment) rated to constantly withstand the AC line voltage and connect it between hot and neutral. Differential EMI would be shorted out and it will help absorb surges and spikes.
 
Nov 8, 2005 at 7:27 AM Post #11 of 22
i think you mean 0.047uf, 40uf is to high and would blow up in your face, you would find 2x 0.047uf caps and a MOV in a el cheapo surge suppressor.

"balanced power is not much of importance" come again:
http://www.equitech.com/articles/origin.html

"It's a lot easier to make a circuit that outputs from 0 to 170v on one side and repeat that on the other side, than to make one that does +-170v".
blink.gif




if you are going to get a power conditioner look for the words "common mode choke" thats what you want.

something like this:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/pr...%20Conditioner
note: this not an ups or a regenerator, if you've read previous post by me you'll know i don't like them but this is something different entirely and it will actually have a real effect.
 
Nov 8, 2005 at 9:53 PM Post #12 of 22
i've got a Monster rack size HTS1600. I have VERY bad power and it worked wonders. No doubt if I had a better line it would probably remove some detail. The Singlepower MPX3 has never cared about the input power, the power supply handles anything it can get. My Cyrus however was in definite need of power conditioning, as was my Channel Islands VHP-1 when I had it. Basically if you feel like you've got bad power put as much money into a unit as you can. For me that was only $200 and the Monster unit fell into that price range better than any of the audiphile approved multi-port strips I could find.

I've got a couple Zu Boks for the MPX3 and the Cyrus. I didn't want to believe in aftermarket power cables until I went to a mini-meet at Tyrion's place and plugged a big fancy cord of some sort into my MPX3, and a simple Quail into my Cyrus. I already loved the bass from my setup but that tweak gave it even more depth and control. I haven't had any long term tests with other PC's but the Zu Bok is a great value (check ebay, Zu has an online store of discounted items).
 
Nov 8, 2005 at 10:51 PM Post #13 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Wong
Best bang for the buck might be a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet, which uses a balun to cancel noise on your line. The improvement is clearly audible. You can probably get one used in the $200-250 range.]


I can heartily second that opinion. NNJ is just as bad as NYC, in regards to polluted power, and the Ultimate outlet made an outstanding improvement in my CDP output. (as a side benefit, it removed the color anomilies from my Apple LCD display)
 
Nov 9, 2005 at 4:33 AM Post #14 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by helix
i think you mean 0.047uf, 40uf is to high and would blow up in your face, you would find 2x 0.047uf caps and a MOV in a el cheapo surge suppressor.


I do mean over 40uF. It just has to be rated to handle the AC line voltage. And by that, I mean use a motor run capacitor.
And note that a cheap solution for ground loops is to plug all connected equipment into the same outlet. It may not totally eliminate the problem but it will likely reduce it. And where possible, use optical, isolated, or differential interfaces between two line powered devices. I have experienced interference on a cheap LCD monitor once, and it was solved by plugging the PC and monitor into the same UPS.
BTW, when bundling up excess cable to help prevent wiring clutter, try to keep power and signal wiring far away from each other. Otherwise, it could make an undesirable air core transformer between the lines.
 

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