[shineonyou]

McINTOSH MPH1000

 

[mulder01]

Ahh it wasn't necessarily about a DAC in the beginning.  I was mostly annoyed about the amount of things we're told are just marketing or we're only hearing things because were told etc but a distinct lack of suggestions on what wasn't ********.  I have read a few people saying my question doesn't make sense or they don't understand it - maybe I can't articulate things as well as some.  HONESTLY, I didn't think it was a hard question.  I was roughly expecting an answer along the following lines:
 
As far as headphones are concerned, buy whatever you like the sound of.  Spend under a hundred bucks on interconnects from a non retail company - look for someone that makes good quality no frills cables.  Don't buy an after market power cable.  Go for solid state over tubes because they produce less distortion, don't wear, don't need warming up and generally cost less for comparable specs. You only need to spend XXX on an amp in relation to your headphones otherwise you probably won't hear any improvement due to XXX.  Single ended amps perform the same as the balanced equivalent.  Stock headphone cables are fine.  Cheap DACs are fine.  Your DAC in your device will probably be suitable but if you want a desktop dac just get something like XXX or XXX otherwise you're spending money for no reason.  etc etc etc.  NOT NECESSARILY THAT ANSWER, but something along those lines with a few suggestions of what measures really well and punches above it's weight technically speaking.  I didn't think I was asking anything difficult.

 

[edstrelow]

Your's is an absolutely good question mulder01 and steve eddy is absolutely avoiding it so as not to go out on a limb and have that limb sawed off. 
 
  I have been an attorney for 25 years now and this happens all the time in court.  At such a  point I would ask the judge for a ruling that the witness is unresponsive, ask the witness if he or she understands the question and then get an order from the judge that the witness give an answer which is responsive to the question.
 
More to the point many cases require experts often in various fields of science and engineering to give opinions about key issues in a case based on their special knowledge. So I don't see this as an odd question at all.
 
 I think this is one of those emperor has no clothes situations where for all the lip service this forum gives to science you are pointing out that it can' t answer this most basic question.
 
I would say that the correct answer in this case is probably "I don't know" or "I can't say." 
 
 l also recall an answer from one of my old psychology  profs, a fairly distinguished experimenter in human memory, who when asked a difficult, real world question said:
 
"Waaaal, ( he was from Missouri and lapsed into a drawl) there's a lot we don't know before we don't know that." 
 
I would say, that as in many areas of life, science may " inform" our decisions but we often lack enough information to get a definitive answer. Don't get suckered by some pseudo science rationale, if it costs a lot of money. Otherwise, keep an open mind , listen to lots of different equipment, listen to live unamplified music to get a proper reference, consider the advice of persons with tastes similar to yours, and remember the man from Missouri.  Then buy what you like.

 

[Lethe]

It's a bit...overarching, @mulder01 if you want specific answers you gotta give specific questions such as:
 
Hey guys, aftermarket cables vs. stock cables, worth it?
So how about them DACs huh? How do high end $1000 DACs stack up against $100 DACs? Any recommendations?
Pros and cons of solid state amps vs. tube amps, what are they, eh? Also, any recommendations?
 
...to name a few. You can't expect us to understand what you really want if you generalize your question. If you don't ask a specific question, you're going to get an answer that's as wide as the Pacific.
 
Also, you seem to know the answer to most of your questions:

 
As far as headphones are concerned, buy whatever you like the sound of.  Spend under a hundred bucks on interconnects from a non retail company - look for someone that makes good quality no frills cables.  Don't buy an after market power cable.  Go for solid state over tubes because they produce less distortion, don't wear, don't need warming up and generally cost less for comparable specs. You only need to spend XXX on an amp in relation to your headphones otherwise you probably won't hear any improvement due to XXX.  Single ended amps perform the same as the balanced equivalent.  Stock headphone cables are fine.  Cheap DACs are fine.  Your DAC in your device will probably be suitable but if you want a desktop dac just get something like XXX or XXX otherwise you're spending money for no reason.  etc etc etc.  NOT NECESSARILY THAT ANSWER, but something along those lines with a few suggestions of what measures really well and punches above it's weight technically speaking.  I didn't think I was asking anything difficult.

 

[rovopio]

  Ahh it wasn't necessarily about a DAC in the beginning.  I was mostly annoyed about the amount of things we're told are just marketing or we're only hearing things because were told etc but a distinct lack of suggestions on what wasn't ********.  I have read a few people saying my question doesn't make sense or they don't understand it - maybe I can't articulate things as well as some.  HONESTLY, I didn't think it was a hard question.  I was roughly expecting an answer along the following lines:
 
As far as headphones are concerned, buy whatever you like the sound of.  Spend under a hundred bucks on interconnects from a non retail company - look for someone that makes good quality no frills cables.  Don't buy an after market power cable.  Go for solid state over tubes because they produce less distortion, don't wear, don't need warming up and generally cost less for comparable specs. You only need to spend XXX on an amp in relation to your headphones otherwise you probably won't hear any improvement due to XXX.  Single ended amps perform the same as the balanced equivalent.  Stock headphone cables are fine.  Cheap DACs are fine.  Your DAC in your device will probably be suitable but if you want a desktop dac just get something like XXX or XXX otherwise you're spending money for no reason.  etc etc etc.  NOT NECESSARILY THAT ANSWER, but something along those lines with a few suggestions of what measures really well and punches above it's weight technically speaking.  I didn't think I was asking anything difficult.

 
Its not about how you articulate the question. It's what you ask.
 
i'm paraphrasing here but your question was money no object, what is the best system measurement wise, that sounds as good as 5-digit system?
 
People have pointed out to you that your question is not understandable.
This coming from a guy with broken english.
 
If you want people to answer like you quote, you need to change your question.
If i were you i would ask, at what price range, for each components, i should spend before the sound difference or upgrade is not audible anymore, provided that i like warm / bright / neutral / natural / etc sound...
I also insist on buying cables for the headphones and for the chain connections as well.
Looking on insights on how to sensibly spend my money without going extravagant...
 
Then people can gives you answers.
 
There's no best in headphone chain because (acc. To Paul Barton) there isn't any standard yet in how headphone should sound (unlike speakers). His word.
 
 
You don't say "i want something that sound as good as Joe Blow's 35,000 setup, that measures exemplary too"
 
What if Joe Blow setup is deliberately aim for distortion? There are dac out there that decides to distort sound i think...

 

[prot]

  The DAC in the computer is as good as any?

that is a clear question ... it can be answered and it was answered many times ... e.g. http://www.head-fi.org/t/755143/does-different-dac-chip-makes-any-difference/15#post_11338397
 
can't say the same about your other questions ... your initial one was totally loaded ... and also impossible to answer cause the "best objective" system exists just as much as the "best subjective" ... and even after 3 pages it is quite hard to say what you really want/wanted from this thread. 
It may be a good idea to adapt your questions to the environment ... if you go like "hey dudes, whats the best stuff here?" in a HP shop  you'll prolly get lots of useful responses ... try the same in a sound-test-lab and  the most useful answer will prolly be "huh !?!?!"

 

[Music Alchemist]

MA - Whilst I may be in the market for a DAC upgrade later in the year (depending on how my audition goes), this specific thread is not necessarily about what dac I should get but more about people writing off products and not being able to name any alternative.  
OBVIOUSLY the general advice is to listen to stuff before you buy it but here's the thing - I bought a v281 amplifier (after auditioning).  I was concerned about the high price and the salesman said well you could get the v220 which is cheaper but just has 2 amplifiers identical to the four in the v281 so you just lose your balanced output - everything else is exactly the same.  But I bought the balanced v281 instead of the single ended v220 because I thought it sounded better out of the balanced output than the single ended.  Now, if I go and recommend to someone go and buy the balanced version of this amplifier instead of the single ended version of exactly the same thing because it sounds better, I would get slammed and told no, you're wrong, because according to SCIENCE, you are wrong.  But then you turn around and say but the science doesn't matter because it's about subjective enjoyment.  The two sides couldn't be more contradictory, yet somehow people seem to be on both sides at the same time.  It's nuts - besides understanding how things work, is there any point whatsoever even discussing anything objective?  Maybe if you knew the frequency response curves of a dozen headphones and could pick similarities between cans that you do and don't like, you could make an educated guess on weather or not you'll like a new headphone based on it's curve, but that's about the only example I could think of.

 
If you specify which types of things you are looking for, you'll get better advice. Headphones, amp, DAC. Do you plan on "upgrading" all three, for example?
 
Anyway, when comparing electronics, you need to ensure it is a proper comparison. At the least, connect everything to a device that enables you to volume-match and rapidly switch between them. Otherwise, it's just a casual listening session.
 
Anyone who knows anything about balanced amps knows that, while there is nothing intrinsic to them that would make them sound better, a significant number of them are designed to sound better via balanced output as opposed to single-ended.
 
More often than not, subjective enjoyment is founded upon objective principles.
 

I just think it's nuts that you can steer people away from a million different things but not toward a single one. I KNOW, I know, subjective enjoyment.  Yes, yes.  But just do one thing for me - name ONE dac that is good and worth the money as far as measurements go.  That's all I've been asking for this whole time.  I don't know why people can ask you a thousand technical questions and you can answer every one, but recommend a product based on the answers to those exact same technical questions?  No chance.  Insane.

 
As far as Sound Science is considered, just about any DAC (even ones in phones) already reproduces audio perfectly, with measured distortion below the threshold of audibility, and measurements superior to that would be inaudible.
 
Personally, I still want to properly compare DACs in various price ranges.
 

Ok, if you just want me to toss something out, Schiit Modi 2, $99.

 
*raises hand* I've got that one!

 

  Ahh it wasn't necessarily about a DAC in the beginning.  I was mostly annoyed about the amount of things we're told are just marketing or we're only hearing things because were told etc but a distinct lack of suggestions on what wasn't ********.  I have read a few people saying my question doesn't make sense or they don't understand it - maybe I can't articulate things as well as some.  HONESTLY, I didn't think it was a hard question.  I was roughly expecting an answer along the following lines:
 
As far as headphones are concerned, buy whatever you like the sound of.  Spend under a hundred bucks on interconnects from a non retail company - look for someone that makes good quality no frills cables.  Don't buy an after market power cable.  Go for solid state over tubes because they produce less distortion, don't wear, don't need warming up and generally cost less for comparable specs. You only need to spend XXX on an amp in relation to your headphones otherwise you probably won't hear any improvement due to XXX.  Single ended amps perform the same as the balanced equivalent.  Stock headphone cables are fine.  Cheap DACs are fine.  Your DAC in your device will probably be suitable but if you want a desktop dac just get something like XXX or XXX otherwise you're spending money for no reason.  etc etc etc.  NOT NECESSARILY THAT ANSWER, but something along those lines with a few suggestions of what measures really well and punches above it's weight technically speaking.  I didn't think I was asking anything difficult.

 
You essentially asked what would give you the best sound quality for your money, and then proposed an unlimited budget. That isn't going to get you the most helpful answers, since it's simply not very specific. That being said, I'd say that many people in this section of the site would tell you that the headphones are important, you only need an amp powerful enough to drive them well (while most headphones don't need an amp in the first place), don't bother buying an external DAC, and also don't bother buying any other audiophool nonsense. The problem is that they often haven't used or tested the particular products they say are a waste of time. My philosophy is to assume nothing. I take all the skepticism into account, but don't close my mind and insist something is impossible when there is no way of knowing that beforehand -- in certain circumstances, I mean.

 

[superjawes]

As far as headphones are concerned, buy whatever you like the sound of.

Yes, this would be our answer.

Spend under a hundred bucks on interconnects from a non retail company - look for someone that makes good quality no frills cables.  Don't buy an after market power cable.

And we'll probably agree with this, but even $100 might be high.

Go for solid state over tubes because they produce less distortion, don't wear, don't need warming up and generally cost less for comparable specs. You only need to spend XXX on an amp in relation to your headphones otherwise you probably won't hear any improvement due to XXX.

The amp is where we start running into problems. Sure, SS can have less distortion than tubes (side note: some people like tube distortion), but the amp is entirely dependent on the headphones. Many great models will only sip power, while some will need more (planar dynamics), and some might need a LOT more. High impedance headphones are going to need sufficient voltage rails to get proper power (V = I * R and P = I * V), so that's a different "type" of power.

On price points, yes, we can generalize a bit, but you also need to know if you need preamp outs, gain switches, etc., as it makes perfect sense to spend more for an amp with more features.

Single ended amps perform the same as the balanced equivalent.

You shouldn't make this claim. Sure, if the power (output) ratings are the same, and both are well designed (they measure well), this is true. However, balanced topologies can solve some problems for the design engineer, so a balanced amp at $ABC dollars might sound different than a single ended one at the same price. Basically, you can't just assume that the two are the same based on price point alone.

Not trying to be difficult. Just saying that--at the very least--we're looking for more information. If you pick a different pair of headphones, you'll get a different set of suggestions. If you can spend $2,000 instead of $500, you'll get a different set of suggestions. If you like Genre 123 over genre 456, you guessed it, different set of suggestions.

There are some things that we can point out as pure garbage, but there are other things that are a bit more complex. Sometimes there is more than one correct answer to the question...

 

[reginalb]

This thread is hilarious. Any native speaker knew exactly what was being asked in the first post, but the answer has been danced around at length by people that don't want to provide one. It's also frustrating, as it really isn't far from one that I had planned to start, but instead of a hypothetical, it was going to be more like, "What do the people of the sound science forum use when they walk out the door?"
 
That is, to those that understand the level of B.S. that goes in to selling audio gear, what actually gets your money? Just whatever cell phone you have with some easy to drive but decent cans? That's my guess for most of the portable rigs in this part of the forum.  

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Ok, so I'm aware of all the standard advice on what I should buy in the head fi market - get yourself a pair of HD800s or LCD3s or something.  Maybe an Abyss or 009 budget permitting etc etc.  
 
But I've noticed that the science forum is full of stuff that I shouldn't buy, and what is a con or just marketing etc. Don't buy expensive cables, don't bother with balanced, forget about tubes, the list goes on.  So I was just wondering, what SHOULD I get??
 
If there's no difference between, say, a well designed $300 dac and a $5000 one, and no reason to go balanced, what could I buy that will sound just as good as Joe Blow's system that has all the bells and whistles but cost $35k?  Should I be steering clear of electrostats for example or should I ONLY be looking at electrostats...I don't know.  Assume I can afford anything on the market but don't want to be wasteful.  
 
So as far as a purely scientifically focused mind is concerned, what is the best objective system I can buy for my dollar?

  This thread is hilarious. Any native speaker knew exactly what was being asked in the first post, but the answer has been danced around at length by people that don't want to provide one. It's also frustrating, as it really isn't far from one that I had planned to start, but instead of a hypothetical, it was going to be more like, "What do the people of the sound science forum use when they walk out the door?"
 
That is, to those that understand the level of B.S. that goes in to selling audio gear, what actually gets your money? Just whatever cell phone you have with some easy to drive but decent cans? That's my guess for most of the portable rigs in this part of the forum.  

 
I quoted the first post above, for reference.
 
He basically asked which headphones, amp, and DAC he should buy to get the best sound quality. Well, isn't that specific!

 
This entire site is full of conversations on this topic.

 

[rovopio]

  This thread is hilarious. Any native speaker knew exactly what was being asked in the first post, but the answer has been danced around at length by people that don't want to provide one. It's also frustrating, as it really isn't far from one that I had planned to start, but instead of a hypothetical, it was going to be more like, "What do the people of the sound science forum use when they walk out the door?"
 
That is, to those that understand the level of B.S. that goes in to selling audio gear, what actually gets your money? Just whatever cell phone you have with some easy to drive but decent cans? That's my guess for most of the portable rigs in this part of the forum.  

 
Feel free to answer the OP question.
Because i can't. And i'm not a native speaker either.
 
What setup do you think is the best objective system money can buy, that also has to sound as good as somebody else's five figure setup?
 
What actually gets one's money is a simple question.
 
Me, what actually gets my money is a magni 2 uber because, again, it's cheap. What I want is a woo audio 7 Fireflies. why? because it looks cool.
does woo audio 7 fireflies sounds different with magni 2 uber? From a hobby standpoint, yes. For 90-something percent of people in this world, not exactly, no.
 
Measurement wise, i know how odac and o2 sounds, and it sounds the same with schiit stack, so i just get the magni 2 because i want to.

 

[Lethe]

   
Feel free to answer the OP question.
Because i can't. And i'm not a native speaker either.
 
What setup do you think is the best objective system money can buy, that sound as good as somebody else's five figure setup?
 
What actually gets one's money is a simple question.
 
Me, what actually gets my money is a magni 2 uber because, again, it's cheap. What I want is a woo audio 7 Fireflies. why? because it looks cool.
does woo audio 7 fireflies sounds different with magni 2 uber? From a hobby standpoint, yes. For 90-something percent of people in this world, not exactly, no.
 
Measurement wise, i know how odac and o2 sounds, and it sounds the same with schiit stack, so i just get the magni 2 because i want to.

I got the Magni 2 as well because even with the Modi 2 Uber it's slightly cheaper than the O2/ODAC, and they look prettier. The Woo Fireflies will give a warmer sound (tube amps), I would get it as well for a more musical and laid back listening experience if it was around $350. Sadly, it's over 2x more than I want to pay for a DAC/amp combo. 

 

[rovopio]

  I got the Magni 2 as well because even with the Modi 2 Uber it's slightly cheaper than the O2/ODAC, and they look prettier. The Woo Fireflies will give a warmer sound (tube amps), I would get it as well for a more musical and laid back listening experience if it was around $350. Sadly, it's over 2x more than I want to pay for a DAC/amp combo. 

 
i know. i a/b them to hd650, alpha dogs, and my cheapo $140 headphone for 6 hours. Appreciable difference in amps is more for people that have this hobby. Those who are interested in music reproduction. From an average person standpoint that uses spotify, youtube and doesn't care that much about headphones and IEMs in general, the difference is not appreciable.
 
I think the most appreciable difference other than headphone is the absence of noisy hisses when using external DAC. On a $300~$400 cheap laptop, sometimes the dac / amp section is so bad it hisses, and the hiss is very noisy. Owning any dac/amps will fix that immediately, and very noticeably.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I think the most appreciable difference other than headphone is the absence of noisy hisses when using external DAC. On a $300~$400 cheap laptop, sometimes the dac / amp section is so bad it hisses, and the hiss is very noisy. Owning any dac/amps will fix that immediately, and very noticeably.

 
For some PC systems with USB power issues, problems like that can still exist when using an external DAC -- more often with a USB-powered one. A USB power isolator fixes the problem.

 

[Rajikaru]

Game Over.