[mulder01]

   
A good set of cans, a good laptop, good recordings, and possibly an amp depending on the cans.

The DAC in the computer is as good as any?

 

[Greenears]

  The DAC in the computer is as good as any?

 
Most ultrabook-spec laptops that you buy in the last 18 months have Realtek HD Audio - it is equivalent to a 24 bit DAC. A lot of high-end smartphones also have good DACs.  Or anything similar will do.
 
Just pick a nice set of cans that suit your size, weight, portability needs and you really like the sound.  Yup you drive it right out of the laptop with a lowly 3.5mm jack with a cable from monoprice for $1 (providing it sounds loud enough to you).  Get a bunch of good recordings in FLAC or MP3-320 LAME encoded VBR or AAC 256 VBR - doesn't matter which.  You are good to go.
 
You can keep baiting us with $5000 equipment but we aren't biting

I'm sure there are other forums where they will indulge.

 

[superjawes]

I disagree that it's a loaded question. I know that technically speaking there are many products that achieve no measurable benefit and everyone is happy to point those out. I'm just asking recommend SOMETHING that performs at the peak of what we are able to hear, without being a gimmick that wastes my money. I legitimately want to know.

That's the thing, though. Many of our recommendations are going to be based on measured differences. Subjectivity has to come in somewhere because one thing will sound more "right" than another. You aren't going to get agreement on a "perfect setup" because there will be measured differences in the drivers, and different drivers will play differently with different amps, and all of that has to be targeted to the individual. What do you like as a listener?

It's much, much easier to look at a thing with a ridiculous claim and call it junk than it is to say the thing is perfect.

 

[Steve Eddy]

I disagree that it's a loaded question.

Disagree all you want.

I know that technically speaking there are many products that achieve no measurable benefit and everyone is happy to point those out.  I'm just asking recommend SOMETHING that performs at the peak of what we are able to hear, without being a gimmick that wastes my money.

You presuppose that buying something that doesn't necessarily perform at the peak of what we are able to hear is a waste of money. What is or is not a waste of money is up to the individual. There is no singular objective criteria for what one may consider awaste of money.

But what you've just said nullifies every reason to even think about the science behind behind this stuff and makes all measurements completely void of any purpose when purchasing gear.

It doesn't nullify anything.

Science is about understanding the world around us, not for making one's purchasing decisions for them. Sure, you can use what science tells us if that's what you wish, but you can use other criteria as well.

If the only reason to buy something is because it gives me the most subjective enjoyment, then all measurements associated with that product are irrelevant, because I liked it the best.

Well sure.

Answer me this, what other purpose beside our own subjective enjoyment does listening to reproduced music serve? If not for your own subjective enjoyment, then what? World peace? What?

Subjectivity is involved in the whole process. From the making of an instrument, to its playing, to making the recording, mixing, mastering, etc. Why must subjectivity come to a screeching halt when that recording is played back?

And I know that's not what you think because if someone came along and said I just bought a $1000 interconnect and it makes my system sound so much better and I think everyone should buy one because my system has completely opened up and I can't believe my ears, you would tear shreds off them, not say "well if it makes you happy then yes I can recommend buying that cable"

You make no sense.

Why would I necessarily recommend a particular cable because someone else liked it?

If someone likes a particular cable and they're happy with it, fine. I don't see where I have any role at all in recommending it or not recommending it.

se

 

[RRod]

  The DAC in the computer is as good as any?

 
Here are the two specsheets for my two Realtek codecs:
http://onns.ru/datasheet/23056de05a6281f61447d733817e6dc5.pdf
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/ALC892-CG_DataSheet_1.3.pdf
 
Here's a popular head-fi DAC:
http://schiit.com/products/bifrost
 
The Bifrost specs a bit better, but not in any way that would be audible to me in my current listening environment. So is the computer DAC measurably better? No. Is it audibly any worse? Not in my A/B tests against the Bifrost (which were the main factor in my selling it to get back $$ for beer). The newer Realtek also handles 7.1 surround and both of them have ADCs which are well, 100% more existent than the ADCs on the Bifrost

 

[Music Alchemist]

  It's not what this is about.  I just see in this forum that there tons of products that are - according to science - a waste of time.  Ok fine, name me one product that isn't a waste of time - that's all I'm asking.  If I bought a regular from the sound science forum with me to a headphone store, what would he tell me to buy.  It's not a trick question.
 
I disagree that it's a loaded question.  I know that technically speaking there are many products that achieve no measurable benefit and everyone is happy to point those out.  I'm just asking recommend SOMETHING that performs at the peak of what we are able to hear, without being a gimmick that wastes my money.  I legitimately want to know.

 
How is it not what this is about? With those particular headphones, there's no doubt that the amp you use is important. If you want to determine how to make your current headphones perform at their peak, as you say, you need to determine just how much power the headphones need before the sound quality stops improving.
 
You're either looking to improve your existing system or looking to buy a new system.
 
If you want more specific answers, you'll need to ask more specific questions.

 

[Steve Eddy]

I just see in this forum that there tons of products that are - according to science - a waste of time.

Didn't cath this the first time around.

Look, if you don't understand what science is, then find some forum other than Sound Sciece to post or just stop using the word altogether.

se

 

[rovopio]

  Ok, so I'm aware of all the standard advice on what I should buy in the head fi market - get yourself a pair of HD800s or LCD3s or something.  Maybe an Abyss or 009 budget permitting etc etc.  
 
But I've noticed that the science forum is full of stuff that I shouldn't buy, and what is a con or just marketing etc. Don't buy expensive cables, don't bother with balanced, forget about tubes, the list goes on.  So I was just wondering, what SHOULD I get??
 
If there's no difference between, say, a well designed $300 dac and a $5000 one, and no reason to go balanced, what could I buy that will sound just as good as Joe Blow's system that has all the bells and whistles but cost $35k?  Should I be steering clear of electrostats for example or should I ONLY be looking at electrostats...I don't know.  Assume I can afford anything on the market but don't want to be wasteful.  
 
So as far as a purely scientifically focused mind is concerned, what is the best objective system I can buy for my dollar?

 
 
Quote:

   
It's not what this is about.  I just see in this forum that there tons of products that are - according to science - a waste of time.  Ok fine, name me one product that isn't a waste of time - that's all I'm asking.  If I bought a regular from the sound science forum with me to a headphone store, what would he tell me to buy.  It's not a trick question.

 
 
i don't understand what you're asking, or what you want.
Maybe some other people don't understand your posts either. Maybe you need to be more specific.
 
This is my opinion.
 
First of all, if you just want to listen to music, and wants a personal audio chain to listen and feel the music better. Then it's all subjective.
I'm going to talk specifically moving-coil transducer. I have a $500 dynamic driver headphone. However, I listen to music from my $140 headphone all the same, in terms of enjoying the music.
Why I buy the $500 headphone, because it's an "upgrade" in sound, and because i want to buy it. Because it's a hobby.
 
Headphone and it's chain is just a tool to listen to music. You don't really need a $2000 dynamic driver headphone to enjoy the music. So what's the best system?
subjectively, the best system to listen to music is the one you will enjoy the most.
 
Secondly, still talking about headphone, there are variety of transducers technology. Whether you can hear it or not, is a different thing.
This is why people that can afford it have dynamic headphone, planar magnetic headphone, and electrostatic headphone. Why? to "experience" it.
Sound is subjective. That's where audition / audio meet / buying used / buying new comes to play. As good as earspeakers are, maybe you like hd650 better.
 
Thirdly, if you take somebody knowledgeable from sound science forum to a store, and ask them to make a decision for you, there's nobody that will be able to do it for you. Because you will like different things than they like. Again, $500 budget, hd650 is thick in the lower midrange, dt880 is fairly neutral, and t70 is bright. Which one is the best from scientific point of view?
The best will be the one you like.
 
Fourth, this is why personal audio is a hobby. You said assume you can afford anything but you don't want to be wasteful.
Define wasteful? Time or Money? If it's time, a wealthy self-made person has a reason why they are wealthy. Their time are precious. They don't hang out in head-fi for hours, their day-to-day schedule are likely packed. If you don't want to waste your time, just buy every headphone that interest you, try them, if you don't like it, put it away. This is how some people own the entire line of grado E series. Because they don't have time to read other people's opinion, they would rather just buy it and decide for themselves.
 
If you don't want to waste money though, buy used and sell it if you don't like it. That's what many people are doing and head-fi provide a good environment to do it. Measurements in headphones are subjective. The purpose of a headphone to output sound. There's no "scientific best" for them. There's only "subjectively best" for somebody.
 
Five, now going to Amps and DACs. Company that made amps has product explanations on their websites on what they put on their amps. I just visit sound science subforum this week, so i don't know anything about measurements, i don't even know in details how does one amp works differently than another. I read manufacturers product description though. Here's on top of my head, quiet power supply, voltage regulators, crc filter, gain stage chips, ground resistors, no semiconductors, etc. I don't know what any of those means. But here's the thing, more expensive products means more production cost. That's a fact. People aren't idiots. If a $80 dac / amps have an average production cost of $10, there's no way a $20,000 amps have production cost of $10. Maybe it has $150 production cost, or $300, i don't know. That extra $, some of it will go to more expensive materials.
 
 
"Scientifically speaking" people buy (or not buy) expensive amps and dacs because of the promise of the engineering on them. Some manufacturer said they employ this and that, some other said they eliminate so and so.
That's where measurements comes to play. Whether that expensive materials are measurable or not is a different thing. Whether that expensive materials are audible or not is also a different thing.
 
Sixth, there are many other factors at play. People's own preconception. Spending habit. Hobby. Satisfaction level.
That's not easily scientifically measured. sounds good and measures good is not mutually exclusive.
 
Sound Science discussions forum exist to help people be more knowledgeable and make informed decisions. It's especially useful for people that have more time to read but have limited budget, so they can save money from spending the limited money they have. It's not for making definite judgement on what are THE dac, THE amps, and THE headphone.
 
Answering your opening post, "assume you can afford anything and don't want to be wasteful", my opinion is just buy stuff you like, from the $200 headphone to the $5000 headphone. Same with the amps and the dac and any other stuffs in the chain. Use whatever method you want to buy them. If it were me, i'd buy them used. I'd buy them one price level to the other. And I'd buy them slowly.
 
i.e. Get a $200 headphone. Listen to it. Get a $500 headphone. Listen to it. Compared with the $200 headphone. Repeat until the most expensive dynamic driver headphones. Keep one. Which one? Up to you and your method. Now repeat the same process with Planar magnetics. And repeat them again with Electrostatics. Keep one from each.
After you have three headphones from each transducer technology, go to amps. Portable or desktop up to you. Repeat the above process, but now, repeat only until you can't hear the difference anymore. Not to the most expensive amps (or you could). Up to you. But buy only SS amps first. Then repeat from the beginning with Tube amps. Or repeat them again with hybrid, or OTL.
Then now get the DAC. and repeat the same process.
 
In the end, you will get what you said on the first post. "What could I buy that will sound just as good as Joe Blow's system that has all the bells and whistles but cost $35k?"
By listening to them all, you will then know what will sound as good as John Doe's audio chain...
It's not wasteful either because you're buying them used, and re-sell them again. Consider it, "a learning fee".
 
That's my scientific answer to your post.
 
-----
Edited addition.
 
The first rule of hustling is supply and demand. They create their own customer base. Create some of them good stuff. Make people want more.
Selling products that people are willing to pay is not the same with conning people.

 

[mulder01]

Edit: sorry rovopio I wrote this post before I saw yours...

All this is about is people's quickness to dismiss numerous different products and their failure to recommend an alternative.  (Greenears and RRod are an exception because they at least recommended something and gave a reason why.)
 
Can you imagine if a food critic only pointed out everything they disliked, but then someone asked them "Well where should we go for dinner?" but he couldn't even recommend ONE place?  He might say, well this place is average and a small meal costs $40, but value is perceived differently by different people, or there is this place which I didn't care for but some people like so it's up to you, since taste is subjective...  Gee thanks for your help.
 
I can just imagine taking someone with all this knowledge to a headphone store with me and saying
me: 'look - balanced headphones'
them: 'no - that's pointless'
'ok well look at this fancy $15,000 dac'
'nah they're a waste of time'
'cool looking tube amps?'
'all they do is look cool'
and then frustrated after the 10th thing that's just a gimmick turn around and say 'well what IS good then?' and they just don't say a word and walk back out the front door.  Seems stupid to me to ONLY be able to bag out products based on their knowledge but not be able to make a single recommendation based on their knowledge.
 
MA - Whilst I may be in the market for a DAC upgrade later in the year (depending on how my audition goes), this specific thread is not necessarily about what dac I should get but more about people writing off products and not being able to name any alternative.
 
OBVIOUSLY the general advice is to listen to stuff before you buy it but here's the thing - I bought a v281 amplifier (after auditioning).  I was concerned about the high price and the salesman said well you could get the v220 which is cheaper but just has 2 amplifiers identical to the four in the v281 so you just lose your balanced output - everything else is exactly the same.  But I bought the balanced v281 instead of the single ended v220 because I thought it sounded better out of the balanced output than the single ended.  Now, if I go and recommend to someone go and buy the balanced version of this amplifier instead of the single ended version of exactly the same thing because it sounds better, I would get slammed and told no, you're wrong, because according to SCIENCE, you are wrong.  But then you turn around and say but the science doesn't matter because it's about subjective enjoyment.  The two sides couldn't be more contradictory, yet somehow people seem to be on both sides at the same time.  It's nuts - besides understanding how things work, is there any point whatsoever even discussing anything objective?  Maybe if you knew the frequency response curves of a dozen headphones and could pick similarities between cans that you do and don't like, you could make an educated guess on weather or not you'll like a new headphone based on it's curve, but that's about the only example I could think of.

 

[rovopio]

   
I can just imagine taking someone with all this knowledge to a headphone store with me and saying
me: 'look - balanced headphones'
them: 'no - that's pointless'
'ok well look at this fancy $15,000 dac'
'nah they're a waste of time'
'cool looking tube amps?'
'all they do is look cool'
and then frustrated after the 10th thing that's just a gimmick turn around and say 'well what IS good then?' and they just don't say a word and walk back out the front door.  Seems stupid to me to ONLY be able to bag out products based on their knowledge but not be able to make a single recommendation based on their knowledge.
 
MA - Whilst I may be in the market for a DAC upgrade later in the year (depending on how my audition goes), this specific thread is not necessarily about what dac I should get but more about people writing off products and not being able to name any alternative.
 
OBVIOUSLY the general advice is to listen to stuff before you buy it but here's the thing - I bought a v281 amplifier (after auditioning).  I was concerned about the high price and the salesman said well you could get the v220 which is cheaper but just has 2 amplifiers identical to the four in the v281 so you just lose your balanced output - everything else is exactly the same.  But I bought the balanced v281 instead of the single ended v220 because I thought it sounded better out of the balanced output than the single ended.  Now, if I go and recommend to someone go and buy the balanced version of this amplifier instead of the single ended version of exactly the same thing because it sounds better, I would get slammed and told no, you're wrong, because according to SCIENCE, you are wrong.  But then you turn around and say but the science doesn't matter because it's about subjective enjoyment.  The two sides couldn't be more contradictory, yet somehow people seem to be on both sides at the same time.  It's nuts - besides understanding how things work, is there any point whatsoever even discussing anything objective?  Maybe if you knew the frequency response curves of a dozen headphones and could pick similarities between cans that you do and don't like, you could make an educated guess on weather or not you'll like a new headphone based on it's curve, but that's about the only example I could think of.

 
That food critic have to know your preference first.
If that food critic takes somebody to the best sushi restaurant, but that somebody doesn't like sushi, that's not exactly work either.
 
The same with headphones. The sound science can't exactly tell you which headphone is "scientifically the best".
I think the more knowledgeable people are, the less they talk about said knowledge, because they then know exactly how much they actually still don't know.
I really don't think if you take people that hang out on sound science subforum to a headphone store, the conversations will go like you typed.
 
It's probably more like, A:balanced headphones, B:just try it, A:tube amps B:just try it", And so on. I think they will let you make your own decision instead. Informing is different with ordering, or even worse, slamming. People that told you what tube amps do is look cool, have prejudice themselves. Prejudice to high profit margin? I don't know.
 
For them to be able to tell you what you will like, you need to tell them first what you're looking for. They can inform you that people can only hear 20~20,000hz. They can inform you that solid state amps works differently with Tube amps.
 
Audible difference, measurement difference, and pyschological difference is three different things.
 
If you think v281 amps sounds better than the v220 amps, then that's what you hear. Likewise, if another person concludes that v281 and v220 sounds the same, it's their conclusion. The subforum exist to inform people that between A and B, there should be no difference, or inaudible difference according to science. That's helpful for people that only have $500 and wants to buy hd600. They can get a $100 amps.
 
The subforum is not for people telling other people what they believe is right or wrong, it's to state facts. What people do with that facts is up to them.
In double blind test, i can't reliably tell the difference between FLAC and 320kbps songs. I still listen to FLACs. The same way some people still buy 24 bit 192khz tracks. It's not wrong for them to do so. The subforum is to inform people that our hearing is limited to 20~20,000khz.
 
ask something more specific than "What could I buy that will sound just as good as Joe Blow's system that has all the bells and whistles but cost $35k?"
Your follow-up statement is also confusing after reading the above sentence... "as far as a purely scientifically focused mind is concerned, what is the best objective system I can buy for my dollar?"
 
what kind of sounds you actually like that sounds good to you?
 
-----
just because people can't hear the difference between a well-known $1000 amps with my $150 amps doesn't mean the $1000 amps is bad. It's inaudible to them. That's good for people with tight budget. In addition. the pricier the products, the higher the profit margin. I get the sense from words you choose on your posts, it sounds like you're not inclined on spending $$$ money for personal audio products.
 
Then don't. Just buy a $xxx headphone, pair it with some amps, and enjoy your music.
 
Head-fi is a place to talks about the hobby. It's (largely) not really a place to talk about musical enjoyments.
There are people close to me that doesn't hear the difference between the IEM that comes from buying cellphone, and a decent brand-name IEM. They love music all the same.
 
You mention recommendation, i enjoy music all the same from my $140 headphone, in comparison to my $80, $350, and $630 headphone. I also enjoy plugging those headphones with different impedance directly to my PC, or to my magni 2 all the same.

 

[Steve Eddy]

...I would get slammed and told no, you're wrong, because according to SCIENCE, you are wrong.

Will you PLEASE stop using the word "science." God, you don't have a clue. If science were a person it would sue you for defamation of character. And win.

But then you turn around and say but the science doesn't matter because it's about subjective enjoyment.

You haven't answered my question. I'll ask it again.

For what purpose other than our own subjective enjoyment do we listen to reproduced music?

ANSWER ________________________________

If you can't provide an answer, there is simply no point in having any further discussion with you.

The two sides couldn't be more contradictory, yet somehow people seem to be on both sides at the same time.

Subjectivity and objectivity are not contradictory. They are just two different paradigms. Two paradigms that can peacefully coexist. You don't seem to understand this either.

You said that if you said that you chose the balanced version of exactly the same amp because it sounded better to you, that "science" would say that you were wrong.

This just further illustrates that you really don't know what you're talking when you speak of science and objectivity. There is NOTHING of science or objectivity that could say that you are wrong. Your feeling that it sounded better came about from your subjective experience, which is what it is regardless of the reasons that may have brought it about. The only way ANYONE, let alone science could say that you were wrong would be to argue that it really didn't sound better to you and that you are intentionally lying when you say that it did, which would be a completely absurd argument to make.

The only way anyone could say you were wrong is if you said it sounded better AND went further to make an OBJECTIVE claim that the reason it sounded better was because the "balanced" version of the amp was responsible for producing a difference that was actually audible. And even then it couldn't be said that you were flat out wrong, only that because it was an OBJECTIVE claim you would need to substantiate it with something more than "it sounded better" to you.

As long as you stay on the SUBJECTIVE side of the road, and simply say that it sounded better to you, there's simply nothing to even question, let alone say you are wrong. It's only when you cross the line in the road into the oncoming objective side of the street that science would have anything to say.

It's nuts - besides understanding how things work, is there any point whatsoever even discussing anything objective?

It depends on what your criteria is. If you wish to go with whatever pleases you most subjectively regardless of the reasons that may be behind it, then no, there's no point in discussing anything objective other than just for the sake of knowledge.

But others may have a different criteria and wish to use objective information to guide their purchasing decisions.

Both are perfectly legitimate approaches and neither trumps the other. It's up to the individual.

se

 

[mulder01]

Yeah rovopio, exactly, so at the end of the day, sound science can only really tell you what you DON'T need, not what you do.  Which is crazy imo. And I think superjawes is probably right in saying it's a lot easier to point out holes in something than to say something's perfect.  I appreciate that.
 
Rovopio, I think your scenario of the hifi store is less likely than mine.  People start threads in the sound science section and ask things like 'do I want balanced headphones' or 'do I want a state of the art dac', and the answer is "no - because..." not "try it for yourself and see if you like it" as it would be in the rest of the forum.
 
se I didn't answer your question the same way you don't answer mine, but yes we listen to music for subjective enjoyment.  Of course.  We're not arguing about that.  I don't see why you think I am.  I DO agree with part of what you're saying and it seems that we agree that the most important thing is subjective enjoyment and that sound science should only play a small part in guiding your decision.  
 
I just think it's nuts that you can steer people away from a million different things but not toward a single one. I KNOW, I know, subjective enjoyment.  Yes, yes.  But just do one thing for me - name ONE dac that is good and worth the money as far as measurements go.  That's all I've been asking for this whole time.  I don't know why people can ask you a thousand technical questions and you can answer every one, but recommend a product based on the answers to those exact same technical questions?  No chance.  Insane.

 

[Lethe]

  Here are some resources with headphone measurements:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-data-sheet-downloads
http://en.goldenears.net/GR_Headphones
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1wi8M-HSeK0JF33P-5ypydQjQ4OshRQhvWM0IX2h0NQ8/edit?pli=1#slide=id.p
http://www.head-fi.org/t/492673/complete-list-headphone-measurement-websites
 
You can listen to recordings of headphones here:
http://www.sonicsense.com/resourcecenter/browse/headphones.html

Thanks for the links! More reading material for the coming weekend Also, feels really weird posting in a thread before you...I feel a change in the winds...
 
@mulder01
 
both
 
Quote:

  So I was just wondering, what SHOULD I get??

 
and
 
Quote:

 
So as far as a purely scientifically focused mind is concerned, what is the best objective system I can buy for my dollar?

 
are subjective questions ("should" and "best") about objective POVs (science) on equipment (audio gear) that enables a subjective sensory experience (listening). You do understand how loaded those questions are, not to mention how contradictory they sound, right? Also, what do you want to get out of those questions? We don't understand. I think most of us have answered every aspect that we can think of regarding this topic to some degree:
 

•  Go to @Music Alchemist's links and read them if you're interested in objective sound science for audio reproduction and the metric on which audio gear is measured on. 
•  Regarding what sounds best, many of us have already told you to use your ears to judge, and your economic sense to judge on budget (resource) allocation and distribution on how much you are willing to spend vs. the sound quality you're getting (value returns) from your gear. 
• In the event that you are asked for recommendations and advice from a friend, tell them what we told you: it's a mix of objective and subjective judgement, tell him/her your personal         recommendations while shedding light on objective measurements and end with telling her/him that you can't predict 100% what he/she will like vs their budget, and let her/his ears (and wallet) decide. 

 

[Steve Eddy]

just think it's nuts that you can steer people away from a million different things but not toward a single one.

I don't attempt to steer anyone toward or away from anything. I simply try and explain the technical side of things to people. They can use that information however they choose as it's just information not intended to steer anyone in any particular direction as I simply don't care what other people choose to buy and use.

If I say there's no earthly reason for silver to have any audible difference compared to copper, that's not saying that cables made using silver perform poorly as a cable and should be avoided.

I KNOW, I know, subjective enjoyment.  Yes, yes.  But just do one thing for me - name ONE dac that is good and worth the money as far as measurements go.  That's all I've been asking for this whole time.

I don't know how to answer that in any meaningful way, particularly with regard to "worth the money." Worth is pretty subjective so my idea of worth isn't everyone's idea of worth. Also, I don't make it a habit of looking at everything that's out there, what its specs are and what it costs. And if I just toss something out, and a dozen other people toss something out, where does that leave you? Which do you choose and why?

I don't know why people can ask you a thousand technical questions and you can answer every one, but recommend a product based on the answers to those exact same technical questions?  No chance.  Insane.

Ok, if you just want me to toss something out, Schiit Modi 2, $99.

se

 

[Lethe]

   
I just think it's nuts that you can steer people away from a million different things but not toward a single one. I KNOW, I know, subjective enjoyment.  Yes, yes.  But just do one thing for me - name ONE dac that is good and worth the money as far as measurements go.  That's all I've been asking for this whole time.  I don't know why people can ask you a thousand technical questions and you can answer every one, but recommend a product based on the answers to those exact same technical questions?  No chance.  Insane.

You do understand what you're doing is going "hey guys what's good? throw science stuff at me" this whole time without specifically mentioning about DACs until getting frustrated in the last few posts. Don't blame us for not understanding what you want when you've been vague.