[Aegir]

Greetings, all!
 
I'm posting this to hopefully gain some insight about power conditioners from a fellow Head-Fi-er who possesses more technical knowledge than I do.
 
I recently acquired used a power line conditioner/isolation transformer at a budget price - the TSI power ILc 1000B.  (This piece of equipment is designed for digital copiers, medical equipment, point of sale terminals, etc.)
 
Here's the specs and a link:
 
http://www.tsipower.com/Isolation-transformer-power-line-conditioners-120V-208V-230V-240V-single-three-phase-delta-wye.htm
 
If you click on that product, a .pdf can be downloaded. (Unfortunately, I don't know how to attach .pdfs in this thread.)
 
1000VA (1000W)
120 Volts AC Single Phase
10 amps
Power Efficiency: 94%
THD: <1%
Surge protection: Three stage surge protection system consisting of isolation transformer, capacitor, and M.O.V.
 
It goes on to list some other information, as well as a schematic diagram.  So, can anyone let me know what exactly this thing does & what these specs mean?
 
Can this thing be useful for my simple setup, or is it just a doorstop?  I plan on using this with a Woo 6, and a V-DAC.  Can a macbook be plugged into this thing as well, or will this introduce noise? It has 4 outlets.
 
I appreciate any feedback.  Thanks for looking.
 
 
 
 
 

 

[Aegir]

Bump

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Greetings, all!
 
I'm posting this to hopefully gain some insight about power conditioners from a fellow Head-Fi-er who possesses more technical knowledge than I do.
 
I recently acquired used a power line conditioner/isolation transformer at a budget price - the TSI power ILc 1000B.  (This piece of equipment is designed for digital copiers, medical equipment, point of sale terminals, etc.)
 
Here's the specs and a link:
 
http://www.tsipower.com/Isolation-transformer-power-line-conditioners-120V-208V-230V-240V-single-three-phase-delta-wye.htm
 
If you click on that product, a .pdf can be downloaded. (Unfortunately, I don't know how to attach .pdfs in this thread.)
 
1000VA (1000W)
120 Volts AC Single Phase
10 amps
Power Efficiency: 94%
THD: <1%
Surge protection: Three stage surge protection system consisting of isolation transformer, capacitor, and M.O.V.
 
It goes on to list some other information, as well as a schematic diagram.  So, can anyone let me know what exactly this thing does & what these specs mean?
 
Can this thing be useful for my simple setup, or is it just a doorstop?  I plan on using this with a Woo 6, and a V-DAC.  Can a macbook be plugged into this thing as well, or will this introduce noise? It has 4 outlets.
 
I appreciate any feedback.  Thanks for looking.
 
 
 
 
 

 
Gets rid of powerline noise, ground loop issues, and in-rush current (speaker "pops" when another device turns on).  The MOVs will act as a basic power strip would in it.
 
Should be no problem using it with your equipment, though it's really only necessary if you suffer from any of the above.  I used to have constant in-rush issues and the isolation transformer stopped that crap.

 

[Aegir]

Thanks so much for the reply!
As a matter of fact, yes, I do suffer from in-rush current AND power line noise.
This was an impulse buy from a closed business which was selling fixtures, etc.
I thought it may be of some use - turns out this is exactly what I need.
I'm glad it didn't cost an arm and a leg to solve those annoying buzzes and pops.
Cheers!

 

[Happy Camper]

I use an iso. transformer for my electronics and keep the amp plugged directly into the wall.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Thanks so much for the reply!
As a matter of fact, yes, I do suffer from in-rush current AND power line noise.
This was an impulse buy from a closed business which was selling fixtures, etc.
I thought it may be of some use - turns out this is exactly what I need.
I'm glad it didn't cost an arm and a leg to solve those annoying buzzes and pops.
Cheers!

Yes, an isolation transformer will help with those things and you can plug everything you have into it.
 
Just so you know, the buzzes and pops might not be coming over the power line.  They can be internally produced by a computer - spinning fans, hard drives and much else kick off junk noise.  Computers are electrically noisy.
 
You can also pick up RFI/EMI noise from other products.  Anything with an AC motor kicks out noise, cellphones, fluorescent lights, dimmer switches, and much else contribute.
 
So even if you're getting pristine power, your cellphone can still interject buzzes and noise when your rig picks up its transmissions.

 

[Aegir]

I see.  So - this would at least eliminate the power line induced noises.  I'm unsure about the "conditioner" aspect.  In layman's terms - what exactly is  power "conditioning"?  I understand the surge protector, capacitor, and MOV.  Is "conditioner"  then merely the sum of all of these parts?
 
On a side note, what about power conditioners with the $1000 dollar price tags ?  How does one justify the price of these types of units?  I'm merely curious, as it seems all one really needs is good protection for one's amp & components - and in some cases, an isolation transformer.  What am I missing?  Do these  other units do more than just protect equipment & filter noise?
 
Perhaps this is another one of those situations where one has to decide how much an audible or measurable improvement is worth in $$ and go from there ?  Thanks to everyone who has responded thus far.

 

[Uncle Erik]

You might be surprised at how few noises come over the power line. The biggest problem is having ground loops with other equipment. An isolation transformer will take care of that. They will also take the DC off the line (yes, there is sometimes a little DC with the AC and toroidal transformers don't like it.) Most noise and hash you hear (if any) comes in the form of RFI.

Even when there is some noise on the line, keep in mind that the power supply in your gear takes care of it. Whoever designed the power supply probably used a good transformer, big filtering caps and adequate diodes or tubes. Sometimes, power supplies are regulated, too. Good power supplies do everything that the pricey power conditioners claim to do. People who insist on repeated cleanings are sort of like people who have to wash their hands five times in a row.

They sell these conditioners because they can. Most audiophiles have no idea how a power supply works. It's sort of like selling a 4x4 to someone who never goes offroad or lives somewhere with inclement weather. People just go overboard. Also, consider that if your gear's power supply is so bad that it needs a second power supply, it probably suffers from other poor engineering.

This is why I just use ordinary power cords, ordinary fuses, and a hobbyist isolation transformer.

 

[Rdr. Seraphim]

My own experience, even with good to excellent equipment is that isolation transformers contribute to overall sound quality. I think it's best to try something like what you have to see if you realize any benefits musically. Interestingly, I have found that the better the equipment, the greater the benefit from a quality power supply. This includes the likes of Meridian, Lamm, Manley, BEL (MkIV), PSE, EAD, etc. Having found both measurable (THD on the AC line) and experiential differences (sound quality)--starting in the early 80's--every piece of gear I own starts with isolation transformers. I think you're on the right path.  

 

[TheAttorney]

Uncle Erik's logic is, as always, first class.
 
But IMO it doesn't come to the correct conclusion. So here's a different viewpoint to consider:
 
If ultimate SQ is like climbing a mountain, then getting sensible equipment, that measures well, will get you to base camp. 
Which is fine and, for power supplies, is pretty crucial on the safety front - you won't get much enjoyment from your hifi system if your house is burning down.
 
But to go higher up the mountain, you sometimes need to go off piste (such metaphor mixing!) and here's where design and measurements don't automatically translate to an improved sound. Base camp will, however, get generally get rid of all the obvious clicks and interference and for that you don't need to spend lots of money.
 
I suppose I would say that, as a few months ago I gave a rave review of of a high end power conditioner (Audience AR4 in the High End forum). I still maintain it gave as big a jump in SQ as most of my main component purchases over the years. And it improved my expensive CDP from a manufacturer that you'd have thought would have an impeccable engineering background - i.e. they have more power supply experience than any person on this form. It doesn't make sense and I can't explain it, and can't explain how a capacitor-based conditioner may differ in SQ from an isolation transformer, or a re-generator. My degree in electrical engineering shows I'm not clueless on the technical aspects, but all it does is get me to base camp.
 
My most important recommendation is this: If you're not sure about this, or don't want to spend lots of money, then DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.
Some people want to get to the top of that mountain, but if your primary aim is to get rid of clicks etc, then base camp will do just fine. And plenty of good people believe that anything higher is a complete waste of money.
 
 

 

[nikongod]

Quote:

If ultimate SQ is like climbing a mountain, then getting sensible equipment, that measures well, will get you to base camp. 
Which is fine and, for power supplies, is pretty crucial on the safety front - you won't get much enjoyment from your hifi system if your house is burning down.
 

This is an interesting point;
When your house is burning down...
 
The irony here is that the least expensive isolation transformers are usually sourced as second hand/surplus HOSPITAL grade isolation transformers. HOSPITAL grade - thats life support. You also find units for various components of scanning electron microscopes and the like from time to time, yet another place people don't screw around. Considering some of the liberties that "audiophile approved" companies occasionally take with regards to safety standards in the name of "better sound" buying an inexpensive hospital grade isolation transformer is the sound decision. Leave the questionable gear alone. 

 

[TheAttorney]

Good point, but how can you tell which is the questionable gear?
I stick to companies that have been around for a while and have a good reputation for quality, but other than that, I'm having to assume they know what they're doing and are following basic standards required by law.
 
How can you tell if the second hand hospital grade isolation transformer hasn't previously been owned by Patrick82, who's stuffed it full of ERS paper and coconuts? Most people probably wouldn't open up the container to find out.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Uncle Erik's logic is, as always, first class.
 
But IMO it doesn't come to the correct conclusion. So here's a different viewpoint to consider:
 
If ultimate SQ is like climbing a mountain . . . 

It isn't anything like it, so the analogy is pretty pointless IMO.  You aren't climbing a mountain, you're riding a ski lift at best, which can take you right to the top in this particular instance.

 

[Uncle Erik]

I agree with Nikongod. I'll take the hospital/industrial stuff any day. Those are almost always built to higher standards than most audiophile gear. Seems a lot of the audiophile gear is long on fancy casework, logos, boutique parts, and brand mythology. You rarely see that gear with UL stickers and industry certifications. I'd rather have something in a modest stamped steel case with an uninspiring model number on a sticker stuck to the side that's been torture tested with exposure to heat, higher than normal voltages, etc.

That's not to say that audiophile gear is necessarily unsafe. Some of it could pass muster under test, most likely. But I'd rather have the sure bet. That often costs a whole lot less, too.

I don't worry too much about getting modded stuff, either. I'll open things up and it's pretty obvious when something has been monkeyed with. Not that isolation transformers are terribly complex - just a big piece of iron with a plug, sockets, sometimes a switch, fuse or circuit breaker.

As for climbing a mountain... I'm not so sure that works as an analogy. There's a weird assumption in audiophilia that there is always something more you can do. But lots of times, there isn't. Once you get the noise, groundloops and DC off the line (and assuming that the line isn't sagging), you're done. You can get there for about $50 or so.

And this isn't that big of a deal, really. You can hang a painting on an eight cent nail, or you can have a machine shop custom mill a nail from a special cryo-treated alloy for $50. Either way you get the same result.

 

[3602]

Somewhat unrelated question: do isolation transformers protect from voltage spikes? I don't see any big joules ratings but I admit, I am quite a noob when it comes to serious electrical business.