[sander99]

One detail I deduced: The HPEQ measurement only applies to on ear HP and over ear HP.
IEM cannot be measured because the (supplied) microphones need to be inside the ear canal.

The A16 offers the possibility to do a "manual HPEQ". (Basically trying to level-match different frequency tones by ear.)

 

[playmusic]

The A16 offers the possibility to do a "manual HPEQ". (Basically trying to level-match different frequency tones by ear.)

Ok, thank you for mentioning it.
Maybe someone came up with a construction to wear the headtracker when using IEM.
I will check the A16 thread.

 

[MayaTlab]

I prefer frequency response more than the spatial qualities of sound. Which one do you prefer?

It's a false dichotomy as frequency response is one crucial element of how you can actually locate sounds in space :

Headphones simply can't have the other elements (inter-aural timing difference for example - unless simulations are involved), so it's a little bit pointless to talk about sound localisation with headphones in general.
The only thing you can really have is simply modulating the FR curve in a way that suggests that sound sources are more or less far away (for example by lowering or raising the 3000hz peak), but it will be broadly applied to all sounds and not be modulated for each individual instruments / sounds as surround sound simulations can do.

 

[538681]

Lateralization is just what it's called when using headphones and binaural sound without any form of "spatial" treatment applied to it. it's different in many ways from your everyday hearing and placing of sound sources around you, and as a result, the same initial signal will arrive and be interpreted differently. One expected result is to feel as if the sound comes from inside our head or close by.

About your example, we're not very good with distances, so that's not surprising. we're also not great with elevation(because of where our ears are placed). Which is why a typical album mostly focuses on panning left and right on the horizontal axis between the speakers. Elevation is mainly perceived thanks to changes in the frequency response, and for mono it's pretty much all about FR and vision. so when you read a review about how good the IEM's soundstage and imaging is because on song X, instrument Y felt as if it was high up on the right. Well that's most definitely not where the sound engineer tried to place that instrument on the stereo album^_^. But I can't argue that the effect can be fun when it happens. I only hate any false feeling of height in front of me.

If you really want learn about how human locate sounds, I can give you a bunch of links on psychoacoustics, but the main idea here is to understand that hearing a cat outside is different from hearing music on a pair of speakers. And both are different from listening to headphones(at least the traditional way).
One of several issues with headphones is how our libraries are filled with music made for speakers. I mostly have stuff from the 80s and before, so those are very much not taking headphone playback into account.
Another big issue is that we objectively need some amount customization for headphones, while we don't for speakers or to perceive the cat asking to be let in just so it can go out again. And while speakers are a different playback method where one instrument comes from 2 places(the 2 speakers) instead of a single place in space, the way the sounds reach our body and are altered by it, is still very much like everyday life hearing of sounds around us. Like with the cat. So we're calibrated for that, it's what's "real".
With headphones, and typical stereo albums, things are messy and wrong. so how we interpret them is also wrong and placement in particular really takes a hit.
But to be clear, headphones on their own have consistently better fidelity than speakers. it's not a matter of headphones lacking sound "quality", it's just something being misused.



@sander99 took care of the A16 question I imagine. there is a fairly active thread with too many posts where you can ask any question. and given how most current users were so very lost at first, you can be sure that nobody will criticize you for asking newbie questions. some devices give the owners a big head, not the A16! it enforced humility and solidarity on most users.

Now that is interesting: "I mostly have stuff from the 80s and before, so those are very much not taking headphone playback into account."

That would explain, being an IEM and Headphone guy, why a lot of older music does not appeal to me. A lot of electronic music, non-EDM, sounds like the engineer used headphones. It sounds great in my IEM but less than inspiring on my stereo system. Not only the usual lower detail and dynamic range but also restrictive imaging. The older rock tues shine more on my stereo.

 

[bigshot]

Yup. Music is engineered for the equipment used by the target audience. The vast majority of recorded music is mixed using speakers. Only specific genres that appeal to headphone users are mixed for headphones. Electronic music is one of those, as is certain types of pop music.

 

[castleofargh]

Now that is interesting: "I mostly have stuff from the 80s and before, so those are very much not taking headphone playback into account."

That would explain, being an IEM and Headphone guy, why a lot of older music does not appeal to me. A lot of electronic music, non-EDM, sounds like the engineer used headphones. It sounds great in my IEM but less than inspiring on my stereo system. Not only the usual lower detail and dynamic range but also restrictive imaging. The older rock tues shine more on my stereo.

That can certainly be one factor. There can also be the idea that the first way we became familiar with a track will remain our idea of the correct way it should sound. And to extend on that, there has been some research suggesting that a lot of our preferences with music were formed with what we listened to in our teenage years. I wouldn't want to extrapolate too much on that research and make it say what it never demonstrated, but maybe if in those teenage years we used mostly one playback method, I could imagine that it could affect our general love for that playback method? Even if it's not in the form of a direct preference for the playback method, it could be because we remain attracted to the musics of that period and we prefer those albums the way we learned to love them. Or something. I did end up extrapolating a all lot, and I have no idea if it's correct or not ^_^.

 

[Plumbus the Wise]

sub bass focus with neutral mids and treble, no soundtstage can beat that combo for me

What are a few different price range example of cans you prefer? Because this is pretty much my exact preference.

 

[FastAndClean]

What are a few different price range example of cans you prefer? Because this is pretty much my exact preference.

for headphones i love planars, Hifiman are very good in general in terms of mid and treble tuning, boosted sub bass you will not get by default but most of them have very low distortion measurements in the bass so the next logical step for me is to use EQ, they take it effortlessly keeping the sound clean and open
Hifiman HE500 was the headphone i loved before but it was heavy and uncomfortable for me so i had to make a compromise in the sound department to gain better comfort with reduced weight
now i use HE400i 2020 version with aftermarket leather pads and the same EQ settings that i was using on HE500, sub bass boost around 5db under 50hz
with the leather pads the extension is improved and now with that setting they rumble, the bass is tight and fast
the only sacrifice compared to the HE500 is the dynamics, they are not as good but HE500 was double sided push pull magnet array, HE400i is single sided
hope that helps

 

[bigshot]

At a certain point sub bass isn’t heard, it’s just felt. Most of the time, headphones with really good mid bass can trick you into thinking you’re hearing sub bass. To get balanced sub bass that goes all the way down, you really need a subwoofer. That is the weak spot of cans.

 

[Glmoneydawg]

At a certain point sub bass isn’t heard, it’s just felt. Most of the time, headphones with really good mid bass can trick you into thinking you’re hearing sub bass. To get balanced sub bass that goes all the way down, you really need a subwoofer. That is the weak spot of cans.

Yep...bass has a physicality to it that no headphones can reproduce.

 

[Plumbus the Wise]

for headphones i love planars, Hifiman are very good in general in terms of mid and treble tuning, boosted sub bass you will not get by default but most of them have very low distortion measurements in the bass so the next logical step for me is to use EQ, they take it effortlessly keeping the sound clean and open
Hifiman HE500 was the headphone i loved before but it was heavy and uncomfortable for me so i had to make a compromise in the sound department to gain better comfort with reduced weight
now i use HE400i 2020 version with aftermarket leather pads and the same EQ settings that i was using on HE500, sub bass boost around 5db under 50hz
with the leather pads the extension is improved and now with that setting they rumble, the bass is tight and fast
the only sacrifice compared to the HE500 is the dynamics, they are not as good but HE500 was double sided push pull magnet array, HE400i is single sided
hope that helps

Any concerns with the plastic sides on the he400? Iv heard some negative about hifimans quality control with people's breaking...

Are the he500s the same as the sundara?

Yup. Music is engineered for the equipment used by the target audience. The vast majority of recorded music is mixed using speakers. Only specific genres that appeal to headphone users are mixed for headphones. Electronic music is one of those, as is certain types of pop music.

I still cannot imagine much music is specifically mixed for headphone users though. Never heard of a well-known mixer specifically doing things for headphones if we are talking about top 40 music.


It would be interesting to hear someone like Dave Pensado talk about his target audience and their gear.

 

[538681]

Any concerns with the plastic sides on the he400? Iv heard some negative about hifimans quality control with people's breaking...

Are the he500s the same as the sundara?



I still cannot imagine much music is specifically mixed for headphone users though. Never heard of a well-known mixer specifically doing things for headphones if we are talking about top 40 music.


It would be interesting to hear someone like Dave Pensado talk about his target audience and their gear.

Engineers need to pay attention to how music sounds on soundbars, car stereos, and iPhone earbuds. The vast majority of the market. Sure, they most often start out on studio monitors (although this is changing) but to not cross check with other sources will lose you market. You would not be doing your job.

 

[FastAndClean]

Any concerns with the plastic sides on the he400?

you mean the yokes? i have the latest revision that use metal yokes

 

[bigshot]

Engineers need to pay attention to how music sounds on soundbars, car stereos, and iPhone earbuds. The vast majority of the market. Sure, they most often start out on studio monitors (although this is changing) but to not cross check with other sources will lose you market. You would not be doing your job.

You are right that mixes are designed for specific demographics using specific types of playback equipment. That involves compression primarily, but there are other things that can be adjusted as well. However, they don't check mixes on every kind of playback equipment. Headphones just vary too much in sound signature. Whatever you chose as a baseline would be wrong for another set of cans. So they focus on a full size studio monitor to create the basic mix. Generally mixing stages have to sets of speakers... a full size set of studio monitors, and a set of small near field speakers on top of the mixing board. Generally you mix on the studio monitors, because they are less forgiving when it comes to bass. Once you have created the mix that way, it is played back through to small speakers to spot places where there might problems. Only those specific parts are modified to make it work on both big and small speakers. If it works on small speakers, it will work on TV sets, earbuds or headphones.

Engineers don't mix using headphones because it is much harder to calibrate the response curve of headphones. Everyone's head is a different shape, so a balanced response for one person won't be a balanced response for another. However you can use tones with speakers to establish a flat response for the room and everyone will hear the same thing. Also, headphones have a tendency to suck up bass. When I was a sound editor, I would use headphones to avoid annoying people around me with repeating sections around edits over and over. I would do a rough level and EQ pass as I edited. I discovered that I could EQ the low end and it would sound fine on headphones, but when I played it back on the big monitors, the bass would explode all over the room, threatening to tear up the woofers. I once bough a hip hop CD that was mixed like that. I suspect it was mixed using headphones by someone without much experience.

 

[Plumbus the Wise]

You are right that mixes are designed for specific demographics using specific types of playback equipment. That involves compression primarily, but there are other things that can be adjusted as well. However, they don't check mixes on every kind of playback equipment. Headphones just vary too much in sound signature. Whatever you chose as a baseline would be wrong for another set of cans. So they focus on a full size studio monitor to create the basic mix. Generally mixing stages have to sets of speakers... a full size set of studio monitors, and a set of small near field speakers on top of the mixing board. Generally you mix on the studio monitors, because they are less forgiving when it comes to bass. Once you have created the mix that way, it is played back through to small speakers to spot places where there might problems. Only those specific parts are modified to make it work on both big and small speakers. If it works on small speakers, it will work on TV sets, earbuds or headphones.

Engineers don't mix using headphones because it is much harder to calibrate the response curve of headphones. Everyone's head is a different shape, so a balanced response for one person won't be a balanced response for another. However you can use tones with speakers to establish a flat response for the room and everyone will hear the same thing. Also, headphones have a tendency to suck up bass. When I was a sound editor, I would use headphones to avoid annoying people around me with repeating sections around edits over and over. I would do a rough level and EQ pass as I edited. I discovered that I could EQ the low end and it would sound fine on headphones, but when I played it back on the big monitors, the bass would explode all over the room, threatening to tear up the woofers. I once bough a hip hop CD that was mixed like that. I suspect it was mixed using headphones by someone without much experience.

As someone who has spent a fair amount of time in studios learning and mixing this is all pretty spot on.