[Nettlesomeness]

I legitimately think experience between headphones and a trained ear plays a huge role in gauging soundstage

 

[bigshot]

Trained ear? Do you mean training yourself to interpret sound dimensionally when it isn’t really dimensional? That is more a matter of training your brain to add to the sound in your ears, not to discern sound your ears wouldn’t normally hear.

 

[71 dB]

Trained ear? Do you mean training yourself to interpret sound dimensionally when it isn’t really dimensional? That is more a matter of training your brain to add to the sound in your ears, not to discern sound your ears wouldn’t normally hear.

What exactly is sound dimensionality for you? What makes sound "dimensional" for you? I believe we both agree about what kind of soundstage can be achieved with speakers, but I am not sure we completely agree about why. We may agree partially (because we both have knowledge of acoustics and spatial hearing), but not completely and that's what I believe is the reason we have differing opinions about "headphone soundstage" so that to you it's "headstage" and to me it's "miniature soundstage."

Personally I don't thinks much "training" is required (maybe little). It's about making sure the spatial cues entering the ear are convincing enought to fool spatial hearing. It's kind of like fooling the theatre goers to believe 3D ( = 2 times 2D) movies are 3D worlds. For me the crucial aspects for getting miniature soundstage are:

1) Headphones with somewhat good spatial properties (Sennheiser HD-598 in my case)
2) Proper crossfeeding to help spatial hearing to interpret spatial information and to "bend" sound forward
3) Open mind (training needed?) so you don't insist yourself the sound is inside your head or on a line through your head.
4) A recording with reasonable spatial properties. Better spatial properties => larger miniature soundstage.

So, any crappy headphone system would not give me miniature soundstage or would give it only with the spatially best recordings, but fortunately the requirements are not huge, significantly less than a good speaker system in a room with good acoustics and placement of speakers and listening point.

 

[bigshot]

Dimensional sound is the specialiity added by the room. You can close your eyes and pinpoint the left to right from the stereo spread AND the distance in front of you, like when you are sitting in the audience in a theater and the stage is a distance away. Secondary depth cues add front to back. Multichannel creates an even more accurate front to back depth. Atmos adds the vertical dimension. Headphones just have a straight line left to right through the head and secondary depth cues.

Yes, speaker systems are harder to balance, but the benefits are on a whole different level from headphones. I've heard well implemented bookshelf speaker systems that sound more spacial than the best headphones. But it's unquestionable that larger soundstage is better than smaller. Miniature soundstage is a little bit better than headphones, but nowhere near a good sized room installation.

I agree that training isn't required to hear spaciality. We hear it naturally every day of our lives in the real world. The closer a system can come to that, the better.

 

[71 dB]

1. Dimensional sound is the specialiity added by the room.
2. You can close your eyes and pinpoint the left to right from the stereo spread AND the distance in front of you, like when you are sitting in the audience in a theater and the stage is a distance away. Secondary depth cues add front to back.
3. Multichannel creates an even more accurate front to back depth. Atmos adds the vertical dimension.
4. Headphones just have a straight line left to right through the head and secondary depth cues.
5. Yes, speaker systems are harder to balance, but the benefits are on a whole different level from headphones. I've heard well implemented bookshelf speaker systems that sound more spacial than the best headphones. But it's unquestionable that larger soundstage is better than smaller. Miniature soundstage is a little bit better than headphones, but nowhere near a good sized room installation.

I agree that training isn't required to hear spaciality. We hear it naturally every day of our lives in the real world. The closer a system can come to that, the better.

1. That's not true. Any sound with spatial information is "dimensional sound". Dinosaurs heard "dimensional sound" and they didn't have rooms or speakers. Rooms don't add anything "special" to the sound. The soundwaves simply follow laws of physics. There is no "specialities" happening. All "specialities" you think you hear happens inside your head. Of course different rooms/acoustics make you hear different "specialities."
2. Dimensional sound doesn't need anyone closing their eyes or existence of theaters.
3. Yes, multichannel system are able to create in illusion on more accurate spatiality, because the acoustics of the listening room are "masked" more. So, it's about the balance of spatial information from the original recording and room.
4. If the sound played with headphones contains zero or very little spatial information then this happens to me, but the better spatial information the recording has the better my spatial hearing gets fooled => greater/better miniature soundstage.
5. Rockets can get you to Moon, but what if you don't want to go to Moon, but the nearby city 20 miles away? Someone listening to headphones instead of speakers clearly has reason for such choice. I am not the only person here who has told you this fixation to speakers on a forum dedicated to headphones is strange. Your posts would be much more suitable on a forum dedicated to speakers. Speakers being able to create better/bigger soundstage is not controversial. Everyone admits to this. Headphones have other kind of benefits (cheaper, less distortion, no acoustics problems, less disturbation to other people around etc.) so dry to understand some people prefer headphones over speakers. I am not telling you to stop listening to speakers and put headphones on. If speakers give you the best music experience then great! Do that! Let others do their thing. Not all people are as well off as you. What is possible to you is not possible to most.

 

[bigshot]

Why do you come back and want to go right back into the stuff that made you leave before? It makes no sense.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Why do you come back and want to go right back into the stuff that made you leave before? It makes no sense.

Because he has a point. Why do you keep talking about speakers on a thread dedicated to the topic of headphone soundstage? Go pound sand. You’re not even on topic.

 

[bigshot]

Because he has a point. Why do you keep talking about speakers on a thread dedicated to the topic of headphone soundstage? Go pound sand. You’re not even on topic.

I talk about speakers because soundstage requires physical space to reproduce. Mixing studios, where they establish the soundstage, monitor using speakers at the recommended triangulation and distances. They design the secondary cues burned into the mix to complement the physical distances involved.

Headphones do not have soundstage because they bypass all of the physical distance and natural spaciality and shoot the sound directly into your ear canals. You can call that "headstage" if you want and I will not continue to point out the error. But he keeps talking about "dimensional sound" when the only dimension in headphones is one dimensional- a straight line through the center of the head. The only dimensionality is the secondary cues burned into the mix, which are disembodied without the physical space they were supposed to enhance.

This is not a headphone forum. It is a sound science forum. We talk about all aspects of home audio here. Go take your own advice. You're just threadcrapping.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

I talk about speakers because soundstage requires physical space to reproduce. Mixing studios, where they establish the soundstage, monitor using speakers at the recommended triangulation and distances. They design the secondary cues burned into the mix to complement the physical distances involved.

Headphones do not have soundstage because they bypass all of the physical distance and natural spaciality and shoot the sound directly into your ear canals. You can call that "headstage" if you want and I will not continue to point out the error. But he keeps talking about "dimensional sound" when the only dimension in headphones is one dimensional- a straight line through the center of the head. The only dimensionality is the secondary cues burned into the mix, which are disembodied without the physical space they were supposed to enhance.

This is not a headphone forum. It is a sound science forum. We talk about all aspects of home audio here. Go take your own advice. You're just threadcrapping.

No, you’re wrong, as usual. Headphones don’t shoot sound right into your ear canal. That’s what IEM’s do. Circumaural headphones take into account the outer ear geometry, do have varying degrees of distance from the ear, albeit small, and have varying degrees of soundstage because of that and many other factors. This has been explained to you before and you refuse to listen. Everything you said above is your opinion and nothing else. It doesn’t represent science. And this topic is about headphones not speakers. So you are thread-crapping and off topic.

 

[bigshot]

A difference of a centimeter or two's distance between the outer ear and headphone driver isn't anything like a ten foot or more distance between a listener and speakers. It might make a headphone sound "open" or "closed" depending on the way it sits on the ear, but that isn't soundstage. Soundstage involves physical space- a projected aural stage ten feet or more in front of you. Soundstage is created in the mix, and "decoded" in physical space on playback. The effect of the distance and room is a *planned* part of the mix when it comes to establishing soundstage. If you don't have speakers and only use headphones, you just don't know that. Headphones have many advantages, chief among which is isolation, so you don't bother neighbors. But they do not have soundstage, spacial effect, or dimensionality. They are incapable of reproducing that because the drivers are so close to the ears. The only distance cues that headphones are capable of reproducing are secondary distance cues, like reverb and room reflections caught by the microphone and burned into the mix.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

The OP’s question is, What Creates Soundstage in Headphones? So they clearly believe headphones have soundstage. They are not asking, Do Headphones Have Soundstage?

So all you have to offer is, “headphones don’t have soundstage.” Ok. Thanks. Everything else you have to say about speakers or crapping on @71 dB’s opinion, is nothing but off-topic noise.

No one cares about the fact that you are an ideological speaker fanatic. And no one cares that your ears are incapable of perceiving soundstage with headphones. 99.99% of every headphone reviewer on the planet will address a headphone’s soundstage in their review. Some people care about it and some don’t. Clearly the OP does.

 

[bigshot]

Semantic argument, ad hominem attack, out of hand dismissal, a bit of a straw man argument and bandwagon appeal.

Let me know when you actually want to discuss soundstage.

 

[gregorio]

[1] The OP’s question is, What Creates Soundstage in Headphones? So they clearly believe headphones have soundstage. They are not asking, Do Headphones Have Soundstage?
[2] So all you have to offer is, “headphones don’t have soundstage.” Ok. Thanks.
[2a] Everything else you have to say about speakers or crapping on @71 dB’s opinion, is nothing but off-topic noise.
[3] No one cares about the fact that you are an ideological speaker fanatic.
[3a] And no one cares that your ears are incapable of perceiving soundstage with headphones.
[4] 99.99% of every headphone reviewer on the planet will address a headphone’s soundstage in their review.
Some people care about it and some don’t. Clearly the OP does.

1. But obvious, this is the Sound Science subforum, not the whatever anyone believes forum. For example, if I post a question in a science forum such as: "How do pigs fly?", I "clearly believe" pigs can fly but how should it be answered? In the context of Science this question obviously can't be answered, except to state that pigs can't fly!

2. He's correct, headphones don't have soundstage.
2a. If/Where 71dB's opinion contradicts the facts/science then refuting it is perfectly acceptable, in fact the home page of this forum explicitly states that! And, talking about speakers is not off-topic, if the material being listened to with headphones is partially or entirely designed for speakers.

3. True.
3a. Not true! Science cares about what soundstage is and how/if it's perceived and obviously, this is the science subforum! In fact, there have been numerous published papers and considerable scientific research into how/if soundstage can be simulated with headphones, all of which would be pointless if everyone already perceived soundstage with headphones!

4. 99.99% of headphone reviewers are therefore wrong and unfortunately, 99.99% of headphone reviewers are also wrong about quite a raft of other false audiophile myths/claims. This is specifically WHY this is the Sound Science subforum rather than the "Headphone Reviewers" subform and WHY a sound science subforum is needed in the first place! Soundstage is an aural illusion and is therefore created by the brain, NOT by headphones. However, headphones can affect certain audio properties which in turn can affect our perception of the illusion.

And to continue:

[1] No, you’re wrong, as usual.
[2] Headphones don’t shoot sound right into your ear canal. That’s what IEM’s do.
[3] Circumaural headphones take into account the outer ear geometry, do have varying degrees of distance from the ear, albeit small, and have varying degrees of soundstage because of that and many other factors. This has been explained to you before and you refuse to listen.
[4] Everything you said above is your opinion and nothing else. It doesn’t represent science.
[5] And this topic is about headphones not speakers. So you are thread-crapping and off topic.

1. Actually he's usually right, at least compared to 99.99% of headphone reviewers but not always.

2. Some of the sound does "shoot right into your ear canal" but some is absorbed or reflected by the pinnae, while with IEMs pretty much all the sound is "shot right into your ear canal" and typically some way inside your ear canal.

3. Again, headphones do not have soundstage. But, as circumaural HPs present sound to both the ear canal and the pinnae, then the perception of the position/location of certain elements in a mix can/might be affected. However, the distance from the ear of the drivers are otherwise irrelevant, because the distance is too small to create audible time delayed reflections that can be perceived as acoustic information, as has been explained earlier in this thread.

4. Obviously this assertion is false! For example, what science do you have that contradicts Bigshot's assertion that mix studios use speakers/monitors to establish/create the soundstage? In fact, can you name a single commercial mix studio that doesn't?

5. That would be true IF what is being listened to is made exclusively for headphones but of course that is NOT the case. The vast majority of commercial music/sound recordings are largely or primarily designed for speaker playback and therefore it is NOT off-topic to discuss the intended soundstage with speakers as opposed to the reproduction of those mixes with headphones and, not only is it not off-topic but it's pretty central to the discussion!

G

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

1. But obvious, this is the Sound Science subforum, not the whatever anyone believes forum. For example, if I post a question in a science forum such as: "How do pigs fly?", I "clearly believe" pigs can fly but how should it be answered? In the context of Science this question obviously can't be answered, except to state that pigs can't fly!

2. He's correct, headphones don't have soundstage.
2a. If/Where 71dB's opinion contradicts the facts/science then refuting it is perfectly acceptable, in fact the home page of this forum explicitly states that! And, talking about speakers is not off-topic, if the material being listened to with headphones is partially or entirely designed for speakers.

3. True.
3a. Not true! Science cares about what soundstage is and how/if it's perceived and obviously, this is the science subforum! In fact, there have been numerous published papers and considerable scientific research into how/if soundstage can be simulated with headphones, all of which would be pointless if everyone already perceived soundstage with headphones!

4. 99.99% of headphone reviewers are therefore wrong and unfortunately, 99.99% of headphone reviewers are also wrong about quite a raft of other false audiophile myths/claims. This is specifically WHY this is the Sound Science subforum rather than the "Headphone Reviewers" subform and WHY a sound science subforum is needed in the first place! Soundstage is an aural illusion and is therefore created by the brain, NOT by headphones. However, headphones can affect certain audio properties which in turn can affect our perception of the illusion.

And to continue:



1. Actually he's usually right, at least compared to 99.99% of headphone reviewers but not always.

2. Some of the sound does "shoot right into your ear canal" but some is absorbed or reflected by the pinnae, while with IEMs pretty much all the sound is "shot right into your ear canal" and typically some way inside your ear canal.

3. Again, headphones do not have soundstage. But, as circumaural HPs present sound to both the ear canal and the pinnae, then the perception of the position/location of certain elements in a mix can/might be affected. However, the distance from the ear of the drivers are otherwise irrelevant, because the distance is too small to create audible time delayed reflections that can be perceived as acoustic information, as has been explained earlier in this thread.

4. Obviously this assertion is false! For example, what science do you have that contradicts Bigshot's assertion that mix studios use speakers/monitors to establish/create the soundstage? In fact, can you name a single commercial mix studio that doesn't?

5. That would be true IF what is being listened to is made exclusively for headphones but of course that is NOT the case. The vast majority of commercial music/sound recordings are largely or primarily designed for speaker playback and therefore it is NOT off-topic to discuss the intended soundstage with speakers as opposed to the reproduction of those mixes with headphones and, not only is it not off-topic but it's pretty central to the discussion!

G

Science does not say there is no soundstage with headphones. That is your opinion and nothing more. So you two guys are of the opinion that headphones don’t have soundstage, then there’s nothing else to say to the OP. Everything else is just noise.

 

[bigshot]

At least 72dB tries to come up with theories to explain his ideas, but you aren't adding anything to the conversation, so I'll just move on.