[Solude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sxr71 ...but I think a $150 external USB DAC might. There's a lot of noise and crap being generated inside that computer case.

And you think by being directly connected to it electrically that you somehow escaped it? The only way to escape PC 'noise and crap' is with toslink and having your audio equipment plugged into an isolated plug.

I also tend to agree that the gap between 150 and 1500 isn't what it used to be in sources. Amps and speakers/headphone still demonstrate a vast gap though.

 

[Solude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sxr71 ...but I think a $150 external USB DAC might. There's a lot of noise and crap being generated inside that computer case.

And you think by being directly connected to it electrically that you somehow escaped it? The only way to escape PC 'noise and crap' is with toslink and having your audio equipment plugged into an isolated plug.

I also tend to agree that the gap between 150 and 1500 isn't what it used to be in sources. Amps and speakers/headphone still demonstrate a vast gap though.

 

[Elephas]

I have amps that cost me about US$70, US$350, and US$770. To me, the most expensive amp sounds better than the less expensive amps. That doesn't mean the other amps sound bad. It just means the expensive amp provides more musical enjoyment to me and the additional enjoyment is worth the additional cost.

I would be even happier if the least expensive amp provided the most enjoyment; I would sell the expensive ones immediately and buy more music.

I don't consider myself an audiophile and am not familiar with most of the terms. However, when I listen to the expensive amp terms such as "black background," "details," "instrument separation," "smooth," and "enjoyable" come to mind. To some people, the differences might not be readily apparent but as I spend more time listening to each amp, their differences have become more identifiable.

A better source can help you hear differences between amps. For example, I don't hear a large difference between amps using an iPod line out. Using the 1212m or AirPort Express optical outputs to the CEC DA53 DAC, amp differences are more apparent.

 

[Genetic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genetic But it will be like putting a racing engine in a car with with 4 flat tires.... Amicalement

OK then...«(...) a car with one flat tire»

Amicalement

P.S. And Just for the fun of it: how long will be the working life of a 150$ source?

 

[irvin59]

Not always as much of a difference as we'd like to think.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact/t_3.html

 

[ken36]

I think a little psychology is involved here. My mind is already made up that the $1500 amo is going to sound better then the one that cost. $150

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genetic OK then...«(...) a car with one flat tire» Amicalement P.S. And Just for the fun of it: how long will be the working life of a 150$ source?

If it's a sound card, probably many years.

 

[Genetic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch If it's a sound card, probably many years.

OK I'll try my best to be serious one second. Usually 150$ is a fraction of the taxes I pay for my audio source. We all know that I dont have «de facto» a result that is equivalent to what I invest in those toys but the end result is, for me and only for me:

1) A direct acces to a real piece of art in display. (Design my major weakness)
2) Great sound
3) Durability in performance

Amicalement

EDIT: Return to the main topic. The higher the price is this makes more probable the fact that the amp will be more presentable. On the other side I have seen many quite expensive amps on this forum that are not even worthy of being side by side with our snowblower in the garage....

 

[markl]

A computer sound card has very limited real estate. Digital and analog sections housed on same board, all being fed by the noisy power supply in the computer. Cheap componentry delivered at a good price.

Quote:

I suppose in order to determine the difference between a $150 soundcard and a $3000 CD player you need to know exactly where the extra $2850 is going for since I really doubt the CD player costs that much to make.

OK, let's take a look. Here is a Chaintech card, seems to be reasonably well-respected around here, pretty bare bones:

Here is the guts of hi-end CD player, you'll notice it isn't just a Chaintech card stuffed in a case

:

And another one:

 

[Kestrel]

Money

Money with diminishing returns.

 

[Illah]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genetic 1) A direct acces to a real piece of art in display. (Design my major weakness)

I feel your pain! I went to an art school for four years and am very picky about this as well. I really appreciate form and function...too many care only about the latter (damn A/V geeks

). At home my keyboard even matches my mouse, and they in turn match my desk. I'm such a dork.

--Illah

 

[rickcr42]

Sometimes superior circuitry but many times no more than a pretty cabinet and pretty knobs with nice looking connectors.I can and have taken two identical amps and had damn near every single person swear the btter looking amp actually sounded better so my thought it a lot of what is considered high end sound is in fact high end cosmetics.

This does not mean "pretty " should be dismissed if that is what the customer wants (and you all do

) so it then comes down to cost added.Heavy metal or metal and wood enclosures are not cheap.Nice looking machined or NOS knobs also not cheap.When it comes to the jacks "as jewelry" a real budget breaker so you really do get what you pay for as long as the actual circuit is a valid one.Since music is an aural and not a visual medium we like our systems to look good as well as sound good because many times that is what we look at when listening and if that is a pleasing sight then the music pleasing also if it has no readily apparent glitches such as hum or noise.

there are also the superior designs out there that leave no doubt they actually sound better but if in an ugly or generic case most likely will be beneath notice and not sell in any real numbers.Commercial amps need both sound electronic engineering plus someone with a hint of artist to package it then a good photographer to show off this "little beauty" and make you want in.

 

[markl]

Quote:

Sometimes superior circuitry but many times no more than a pretty cabinet and pretty knobs with nice looking connectors.

But Rick, you're leaving out build quality. You can have two identical circuits on two identical boards but load one up with better components at better quality and end up with a sonically superior amp to the exact same circuit board populated by the cheapest components on the market.

 

[Tim D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch Yes, and sound cards are specifically designed to compensate for it. That's why you can get -120dB S/N ratios and such. Noise, jitter and such are easy to test.

Yes but that is with loopbacks. You can get nasty noise introduced when you add an amp into the loop which uses a different ground/psu reference. This is how people end up hearing 'HD noises' and such through their hi-end soundcards, etc. If its an internal card it can be difficult to isolate without optical output, etc. With a USB DAC/card you can just pull the power pins if you have ground or PS hash noise issues. Course on the otherhand some people may have no ground or PS hash noise issue with the same card depending on associated equipment.

Also I personally find that digital sources are much harder/frustrating to judge quality...you can't even really judge on parts and pretty internals or price either. IMO it is true you can get a cheap source that sounds better than much more expensive one, but overall when it comes to digital sources IMO its about finding the gems in the rough. To be honest you never know what you'll get till you try it. I think this differs from our headphone amps which in the past few years the level of competition and refinement has reached a point where you pretty much do have a reasonable expectation of what you are getting. The sources and DAC's of today IMO is as difficult as shopping for headphone amps 5-6 years ago, where the availability was much less and you had to find the gems in the rough, which didn't always mean more $ = better. There wasn't as much advancements in DIY amps back then, and the most 'popular' choices of headphone amps were the likes of Creek OBH's, first generation XCan's, RA-1, a cmoy etc. Yes I am aware there are tons of consumer mass market 24/192khz DAC's out there incorporated in DVD players and such, but I'd wager 10% would even achieve true 16-bit quality.

 

[grawk]

Cost isn't always an indicator of quality. ESPECIALLY in audio equipment. It can be, and often is... But I am of the opinion that money spent on a high quality custom built amp can make more difference than the same money spent on a high end source. Tho if someone wants to send me a $1000 source, I'd be glad to run it through my portable amp, and compare that to my $300 sacd player through my dynahi...