[Alondite]

Quote:

So what you are saying is your opinion is somehow not "narrow-minded" or "misleading"? You are basically saying, what I hear is not right, and what you hear is? Hmm... guess you must be new here because it seems like you have no idea how things work around here. Sound is subjective, what you hear is definitely not what I hear, and could be or may not be what other do. Just because something measures a certain way doesn't mean they will sound that way. There are many factors involved and one will not know for sure unless they audition said product. Your arrogant tone, speaks of your character and of coarse... you think you know better than everyone else. My impressions where simply, my impressions doesn't make them true or untrue. If you weren't so snobbish and would stop and read the entire thread, you would know that my answer was not directed at the OP, but at a question asked by another member. Asking specifically for what I think about the HF5 in comparison with the GR07.
 
My my... the future of this hobby is filled with promise if people like you are the ones helping people with recommendations. 

Except very little of what I mentioned was opinion at all, and was instead in reference to measurements and sound science. When I stated opinion, I explicitly said so. For example:

"I find Etymotics to be a great listening experience" 

That is my personal experience with Etymotics. It is of value only to me. The fact that Etys are not lacking bass, however, is easily seen in measurements and their apparent lack of bass can be easily explained by sound science, or simply by having a skewed perspective of what is the "right" amount of bass.

I know exactly how things work around here, actually. I also know that the general subjectivist attitude here at Head-Fi is what turns those with formal education and proper knowledge of audio engineering and sound science away from here. I am not among that crowd, but my (comparatively limited) knowledge comes from my understanding of what I've learned from those people, as well as my own experience.

Sound is not subjective, interpretation is subjective. There are biological factors which play a part in how we hear things, but biology only allows so much room for error until we're no longer well-adapted. So yes, there are subtle differences in how we hear things, but again, they are subtle.

You can never know how a product will sound until you hear it, that's correct. However, I've yet to hear a headphone that doesn't very closely mirror how it measures. The key is knowing how to read the measurements, and how it translates into sound. 

I'm confident in what I know, because I'm confident in the source of what I know. That doesn't make me arrogant. I'm not surprised, though; attacking me is clearly the natural and rational response when I simply pointed out that the evidence directly contradicts your perception, which simply means that your perception is limited. It's not even an insult. If you've only heard, or if you favor bass-heavy headphones, of course you would think that Etys have no bass. But if you'd had more experience with headphones that are actually lacking bass (K501, for example), you'd realize that the Etys, while a bit light, still have fair amount of bass. It's simply relating to experience, not you as a person. Don't take it so personally, it's not worth getting up-in-arms over. 

The problem with your perceptions are that they are your perceptions. They are only meaningful to you, so using them as a basis for recommendation is, frankly, irresponsible and misleading. Use facts and evidence, and then how your personal experience compares to the evidence. For example:

"The Etys are pretty neutral in bass, but I prefer headphones with more bass so I didn't care for their bass presentation."

Are you telling me that's not more useful than "The Etys had little to no bass"? 

And yes, God forbid the headphone community degenerates into a bunch of people who use evidence as the basis for their recommendation, and who know how to communicate clearly. Maybe we can also weed out all of the poorly-performing headphones that have no business in the high-fidelity market while we're at it. 

 

[IanS93]

Quote:

$150 has sort of become a "between brackets" price point. Stuff at $150 isn't typically as good as even slightly more expensive stuff, and lately there are sets even around $50 which are very close in performance. 

I think the Rock-it-Sounds R50 is around $150 (or less), and it's a great little IEM at that price. I couldn't, in good conscience, recommend anything else as highly at that price point. 

 Thank you for your reply!  I've been looking at both the R-50 and the vsonic Gr07... From what I hear the Gr07 is warmer, while the R-50 has a more defined sound overall that some have considered thin and is a better value for its price?  I've also heard from some that the braided cable in the R-50 may not hold-up in the long run, because it becomes stiff, because that is what has happened in some people's DBA-02. I wonder if this true and should be a reason for concern. Does any of this sound right? I currently have the Klipsch s4, which I do find great in many regards but I'm looking to return them if I can find a suitable upgrade. If you or anyone can compare any of these it would be great.  Thanks.

 

[Alondite]

Quote:

 Thank you for your reply!  I've been looking at both the R-50 and the vsonic Gr07... From what I hear the Gr07 is warmer, while the R-50 has a more defined sound overall that some have considered thin and is a better value for its price?  I've also heard from some that the braided cable in the R-50 may not hold-up in the long run, because it becomes stiff, because that is what has happened in some people's DBA-02. I wonder if this true and should be a reason for concern. Does any of this sound right? I currently have the Klipsch s4, which I do find great in many regards but I'm looking to return them if I can find a suitable upgrade. If you or anyone can compare any of these it would be great.  Thanks.

I can't speak on the specifics of how the GR07 and R50 compare, or how the R50 cable holds up because I don't have one in my possession at the moment. The GR07 and the R50 are pretty much neck-and-neck in terms of performance, so whether you'll like one more than the other depends on the sound you're looking for. 

Your assessment of the two seems to mirror what most people think. The GR07 certainly have a bit more bass, and the R50 are a bit brighter and thinner. Again, they both perform excellently, so it's largely going to come down to which sound signature you prefer. You win either way in terms of raw performance.

For what it's worth, I went from a pair of S4s to the GR07 and found it to be a substantial upgrade. Far more than the price difference would indicate. 

The R50 is probably the better deal, but if the build is questionable then it might not necessarily be. If you could tell me what you'd like in reference to the S4 I could probably get you pointed in the right direction at least, as I'm intimately familiar with them.

 

[Greed]

Quote:

Except very little of what I mentioned was opinion at all, and was instead in reference to measurements and sound science. When I stated opinion, I explicitly said so. For example:

"I find Etymotics to be a great listening experience" 

That is my personal experience with Etymotics. It is of value only to me. The fact that Etys are not lacking bass, however, is easily seen in measurements and their apparent lack of bass can be easily explained by sound science, or simply by having a skewed perspective of what is the "right" amount of bass.

I know exactly how things work around here, actually. I also know that the general subjectivist attitude here at Head-Fi is what turns those with formal education and proper knowledge of audio engineering and sound science away from here. I am not among that crowd, but my (comparatively limited) knowledge comes from my understanding of what I've learned from those people, as well as my own experience.

Sound is not subjective, interpretation is subjective. There are biological factors which play a part in how we hear things, but biology only allows so much room for error until we're no longer well-adapted. So yes, there are subtle differences in how we hear things, but again, they are subtle.

You can never know how a product will sound until you hear it, that's correct. However, I've yet to hear a headphone that doesn't very closely mirror how it measures. The key is knowing how to read the measurements, and how it translates into sound. 

I'm confident in what I know, because I'm confident in the source of what I know. That doesn't make me arrogant. I'm not surprised, though; attacking me is clearly the natural and rational response when I simply pointed out that the evidence directly contradicts your perception, which simply means that your perception is limited. It's not even an insult. If you've only heard, or if you favor bass-heavy headphones, of course you would think that Etys have no bass. But if you'd had more experience with headphones that are actually lacking bass (K501, for example), you'd realize that the Etys, while a bit light, still have fair amount of bass. It's simply relating to experience, not you as a person. Don't take it so personally, it's not worth getting up-in-arms over. 

The problem with your perceptions are that they are your perceptions. They are only meaningful to you, so using them as a basis for recommendation is, frankly, irresponsible and misleading. Use facts and evidence, and then how your personal experience compares to the evidence. For example:

"The Etys are pretty neutral in bass, but I prefer headphones with more bass so I didn't care for their bass presentation."

Are you telling me that's not more useful than "The Etys had little to no bass"? 

And yes, God forbid the headphone community degenerates into a bunch of people who use evidence as the basis for their recommendation, and who know how to communicate clearly. Maybe we can also weed out all of the poorly-performing headphones that have no business in the high-fidelity market while we're at it. 

Sound science, is not always backed up by facts and in this case neither is this arguement. Perceived ideas and theories, not fact. A graph may measure a frequency, but there is much in the graph that is not accounted for. Particularly in the bass region, none of those graphs or measurements account for THD, which is the leading factor in how bass is perceived and how it will sound. My comment "The Etymotics have little to no bass", was in comparison to the GR07, which is true, and believed by many. The fact that you don't think sound is subjective is ridiculous. Interpretation, while yes playing a role, isn't the only thing subjective. Are brains are different, and the way we hear sound waves are different. This is why, so many people describe things differently. 
 
Bottom line is your answers don't help the OP at all, they just create more argument. Arrogance can be confidence, and vis versa. In your case it may be both, but definitely arrogance, because you took what a member said, and basically said this is untrue, don't trust them, trust me. This is just a typical case of a sound science troll, that just likes to argue. That's all. You have your opinion, I have mine, and well the person asking the question has to take both sides and make their own conclusion.

 

[Poetic]

The Vsonic Gr07's is one of the best sounding IEM that i've ever heard for it's price. It's actually kinda weird that it sounds this damn good. I mean it literally competes with $400.00 price IEM's which is crazy. IF your going to get the Vsonic Gr07 make sure you get the MKII , you don't need the bass edition. The bass on the Gr07's are already perfect IMO, and alot others would agree. Also check out the Hifiman Re-400, it's only $100.00 and i feel it competes pretty well with the rest of the $100.00+ IEMS in it's price range. It may not have the bass of The 07's but im sure you would enjoy it's signature. But if you can get the Gr07's man you won't be disapointed. The R50's are also another good choice, but i still feel the Vsonic Gr07's is still the overall best performer than any IEM mentioned in this thread so far.
 
Vsonic Gr07's MKII , non bass edition
Brainwavz B2
R50
Hifiman Re-400 - Excellent Value.

 

[Inks]

If you tweak the R50 a little, it's better than the GR07MKII. The GR07 doesn't need any fiddling though lol .

 

[Poetic]

Quote:

If you tweak the R50 a little, it's better than the GR07MKII. The GR07 doesn't need any fiddling though lol .

Have you tried tweaking the Gr07's? I can make them sound a bit close to the Ck10's but not exactly since the CK10's are armature. Also i did  a bit of tweaking to my R-50's a while back on my cowon player and they sounded close to the Brainwavz B2 a bit better actually and similar to the Ck10's., I found them as close a tie but not better than the 07's. But my ears are different than your's i may just prefer the sound signature of the 07's. I think im a GR07's Addict. However i've found that i like the Audio Technica ATH Ck-10's alot lately. I would like to buy a pair but it's being charged over price. I may just buy it from a friend if hes willing to give it up.

 

[Inks]

GR07, not really, just with tips.
 
On the other hand....
In addition to tip selection [which the R50 is more sensitive to], R50 changes with a extra knowles dampers, insertion depth and impedance. 

 

[IanS93]

Quote:

I can't speak on the specifics of how the GR07 and R50 compare, or how the R50 cable holds up because I don't have one in my possession at the moment. The GR07 and the R50 are pretty much neck-and-neck in terms of performance, so whether you'll like one more than the other depends on the sound you're looking for. 

Your assessment of the two seems to mirror what most people think. The GR07 certainly have a bit more bass, and the R50 are a bit brighter and thinner. Again, they both perform excellently, so it's largely going to come down to which sound signature you prefer. You win either way in terms of raw performance.

For what it's worth, I went from a pair of S4s to the GR07 and found it to be a substantial upgrade. Far more than the price difference would indicate. 

The R50 is probably the better deal, but if the build is questionable then it might not necessarily be. If you could tell me what you'd like in reference to the S4 I could probably get you pointed in the right direction at least, as I'm intimately familiar with them.

Alright thanks, I'll have to look into them sometime.  Also is the over the ear style annoying at all for you?

 

 

[reddragon]

Quote:

Alright thanks, I'll have to look into them sometime.  Also is the over the ear style annoying at all for you?

 

 
 
 
if you get into ciems, most of the ciems will be over the ear anyway...