[Dutchess of York]

For mixing electronic, Ive heard sony SA-5000's are king. Do you have an amp? Almost all of the headphones recommended here require a dedicated headphone amp.

 

[death69]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutchess of York /img/forum/go_quote.gif For mixing electronic, Ive heard sony SA-5000's are king. Do you have an amp? Almost all of the headphones recommended here require a dedicated headphone amp.

No I don't have an amp but I am going to get one. Someone recommended Behringer Amp 800 earlier and I checked it out and like it. It is cheap and seems like what I want.

I am just still mulling around my options for mixing headphones. I am glad I am getting this much feedback and I am looking into all the options presented.

Keep the feedback coming please. I am going to try to narrow my search down tonight or tomorrow and see what everyone thinks.

 

[Kees]

Ultrasone PRO750.

 

[Shahrose]

ultrasone pro750/2500, beyerdynamic dt880.

(i've heard of the sony SA-5000s being good for listening to electronic music, but never for mixing it)

 

[Philco]

When using headphones to mix, you HAVE to use some kind of crossfeed, otherwise the bass will be way off (too much or not enough), even with the best headphones money can get, even with Stax, even with K1000s, even with R10s.

Bass is highly phase dependant and you need some crossfeed to mix when using headphones, as simple as that !

Now about the DT770...IMO they are not bassy at all. I'm used to hear full-size speakers in studio environements and the bass they put out is phenomenal. True bass provides impact and deepness while being controlled at the same time. This is what I get with the DT770.

I said it before and I will say it again : most people here have a wrong perception of what the bass should sound like. This is mainly due to a lack of experience, a lack of ear, a lack of using some kind of crossfeed, or simply adhering blindly to the putrid "audiophile standard" which dictates that bass is a bad thing and should be dry and low in volume to be acceptable.

To my ears, the DT770 present excellent, true bass characteristics that remind me a lot of full-size speakers in a treated room. They posess excellent spatial resolution and clinical treble reproduction, something usually only found on costly studio monitors. With crossfeed, they get even better and the bass is mostly accurate when translated to speakers.

If you want to hear bad bass, I suggest the Sony MDR-7509/V900 (not the HD one though) and the Audio-Technica ATH-M50.

My AKG K240S is also untrue in the bass and don't extend that low compared to my DT770. Despite this fault, I still prefer them to my HD600 which are awful in every way possible.

Also, it is an excellent practice to check the mixes on every system (cans, speakers, car systems,etc. ) you can, therefore avoiding the "mix will sound good to you" effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LobsterSan /img/forum/go_quote.gif DT770 is too bassy for accurate mixing. When you mix it will sound good to you but half of the people out there will hear no bass.

 

[demoNMaCHiN3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now about the DT770...IMO they are not bassy at all. I'm used to hear full-size speakers in studio environements and the bass they put out is phenomenal. True bass provides impact and deepness while being controlled at the same time. This is what I get with the DT770. I said it before and I will say it again : most people here have a wrong perception of what the bass should sound like. This is mainly due to a lack of experience, a lack of ear, a lack of using some kind of crossfeed, or simply adhering blindly to the putrid "audiophile standard" which dictates that bass is a bad thing and should be dry and low in volume to be acceptable. To my ears, the DT770 present excellent, true bass characteristics that remind me a lot of full-size speakers in a treated room. They posess excellent spatial resolution and clinical treble reproduction, something usually only found on costly studio monitors. With crossfeed, they get even better and the bass is mostly accurate when translated to speakers.

*clap clap clap* couldn't agree more

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco /img/forum/go_quote.gif When using headphones to mix, you HAVE to use some kind of crossfeed, otherwise the bass will be way off (too much or not enough), even with the best headphones money can get, even with Stax, even with K1000s, even with R10s. Bass is highly phase dependant and you need some crossfeed to mix when using headphones, as simple as that ! Now about the DT770...IMO they are not bassy at all. I'm used to hear full-size speakers in studio environements and the bass they put out is phenomenal. True bass provides impact and deepness while being controlled at the same time. This is what I get with the DT770. I said it before and I will say it again : most people here have a wrong perception of what the bass should sound like. This is mainly due to a lack of experience, a lack of ear, a lack of using some kind of crossfeed, or simply adhering blindly to the putrid "audiophile standard" which dictates that bass is a bad thing and should be dry and low in volume to be acceptable. To my ears, the DT770 present excellent, true bass characteristics that remind me a lot of full-size speakers in a treated room. They posess excellent spatial resolution and clinical treble reproduction, something usually only found on costly studio monitors. With crossfeed, they get even better and the bass is mostly accurate when translated to speakers. If you want to hear bad bass, I suggest the Sony MDR-7509/V900 (not the HD one though) and the Audio-Technica ATH-M50. My AKG K240S is also untrue in the bass and don't extend that low compared to my DT770. Despite this fault, I still prefer them to my HD600 which are awful in every way possible. Also, it is an excellent practice to check the mixes on every system (cans, speakers, car systems,etc. ) you can, therefore avoiding the "mix will sound good to you" effect.

I appreciate your admiration for the DT 770's. I also like their sound. However, I find them to be slightly "bassy" as compared to the same audio as it would sound coming from studio monitors. I also find the DT 770's sound to be slightly "muffled".
Your inference about the audiophile's rejection of bass is probably somewhat accurate. (It is probably also true of the "average" person, especially those over the age of 40.) It would not, however, be true of me as I have been involved in a number of recording studio projects over the span of more than 30 years and I am very familiar with production in this regard.
I suggest you try something. See if you can demo a pair of Ultrasone Pro 750's. I am sure you will find the bass as it sounds through these phones to be much more accurate and balanced than it sounds coming through the DT 770's. This would also be true of the accuracy of the other frequencies. The sound via the Pro 750's is the closest sound to the sound coming from high quality studio monitors that I've ever heard.
I like the mellow sound of the DT 770's but I don't find them to be an accurate headphone. And, they certainly do not replicate the sound of high quality studio monitors (at least not very well), IMO. None-the-less, I believe I would enjoy their mellow sound for private listening even though I would know I would be listening to an altered sound, IMO. I would not, however, use them for mixing or producing because they would give an inaccurate "read" which would then sound via speakers very different than it would sound though the DT 770's, IMO.
Actually, mixing via headphones is still a relatively new idea. So far, I have heard of professional mixes being done with only two headphones: the AKG K701 and the Ultrasone Pro 750 (primarily because of their accuracy). Let me make sure you understand. I'm not saying that there are not other headphones one could use for mixing. What I'm saying is that I have only heard of these two headphones being used for this purpose (in professional situations).
Another brand of headphone I would probably not use for mixing would be Sony, at least not the ones I've heard. I've never heard the R10 but someone recently gave me a description of it's sound which they admiringly described as a "colored" sound with 'an emphasis on the mids'. If that's true, and, it probably is true because, basically, in varying degrees, that is how I would probably describe the sound of the other Sony headphones I've heard, I would never use the R10's for mixing, even though they are a very expensive headphone.
If you're mixing with headphones, accuracy is crucial.
Having said all of this, truth be told, I still prefer mixing with monitors.

 

[krmathis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by majkel /img/forum/go_quote.gif electrostats - no because the mix might come out unlistenable on dynamic transducers (MHO)

Well then that could be used the other way around as well.

dynamic headphones - no because the mix might come out unlistenable on electrostatic transducers

I highly recommend the Stax 4070. After all its a monitor, specific developed for audio production (originally built for a major Japanese TV station).

 

[Philco]

I appreciate your admiration for the Ultrasone Proline 750. I had the opportunity to buy some prolines 750 and 2500 at an excellent price, but didn't even bother to try them out. I don't believe in their S-Logic thing and many users have reported that they sound weird because of that.

Also, the DT770 are anything but mellow. Their high frequency response is quick, thick, accurate, clinical and the high-end extends really good. Maybe I just have a very good pair.

Finally, mixing with monitors IS mandatory, and if you have to do it on headphones, you HAVE to use crossfeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif I appreciate your admiration for the DT 770's. I also like their sound. However, I find them to be slightly "bassy" as compared to the same audio as it would sound coming from studio monitors. I also find the DT 770's sound to be slightly "muffled". Your inference about the audiophile's rejection of bass is probably somewhat accurate. (It is probably also true of the "average" person, especially those over the age of 40.) It would not, however, be true of me as I have been involved in a number of recording studio projects over the span of more than 30 years and I am very familiar with production in this regard. I suggest you try something. See if you can demo a pair of Ultrasone Pro 750's. I am sure you will find the bass as it sounds through these phones to be much more accurate and balanced than it sounds coming through the DT 770's. This would also be true of the accuracy of the other frequencies. The sound via the Pro 750's is the closest sound to the sound coming from high quality studio monitors that I've ever heard. I like the mellow sound of the DT 770's but I don't find them to be an accurate headphone. And, they certainly do not replicate the sound of high quality studio monitors (at least not very well), IMO. None-the-less, I believe I would enjoy their mellow sound for private listening even though I would know I would be listening to an altered sound, IMO. I would not, however, use them for mixing or producing because they would give an inaccurate "read" which would then sound via speakers very different than it would sound though the DT 770's, IMO.

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco /img/forum/go_quote.gif I appreciate your admiration for the Ultrasone Proline 750. I had the opportunity to buy some prolines 750 and 2500 at an excellent price, but didn't even bother to try them out. I don't believe in their S-Logic thing and many users have reported that they sound weird because of that. Also, the DT770 are anything but mellow. Their high frequency response is quick, thick, accurate, clinical and the high-end extends really good. Maybe I just have a very good pair. Finally, mixing with monitors IS mandatory, and if you have to do it on headphones, you HAVE to use crossfeed.

Just because you don't believe in something doesn't make it any less real. And, I can assure you that the S-Logic aspect of the Proline 750 and 2500 is indeed quite real. When people say that the Ultrasone headphones sound "weird" (or words to that effect) it is often because they are not wearing the headphones correctly. There are other theories about why some people can not hear the S-Logic surround sound effect. Those theories are mentioned in my first post of a thread I started:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/sou...phones-336543/

About the subject of crossfeed: It is still rare for professional sound engineers to mix using headphones. As I mentioned in my previous post, I have experienced only two professional situations where music tracks were mixed using headphones. Both of those situations involved Jazz music and a Stand-up Bass (among other instruments). In one of those situations, the AKG K701 headphones were used. In the other, the Ultrasone Pro 750 headphones were used. In neither case was crossfeed found necessary and was not utilized. I could imagine, however, that with less accurate headphones than these, that crossfeed would be very helpful in mixing, and probably necessary. But it is highly doubtful that less accurate headphones would be used in professional mixing situations.
Believe it or not, I'm going to take your side of our discussion, to some degree, regarding your stance on the DT 770's. The reason I'm doing this is because, since I wrote my most previous post to you, I have come to understand that there are different models of the DT770's. This was something I did not know at the time I wrote that post. To the best of my recollection, I have heard only one model of the DT 770. Consequently, the comments I made in my previous post are based on hearing that one particular model of the DT770. And, since that one is the only model of the DT770 I have heard, I can not make any comment on any other model of the DT 770's sound or performance. My point is, you could be correct about another model of the DT 770 that I have not heard. I do not know.
Since you have a pair of DT 770's, that serve your purposes so well, I say, "fantastic"!
People have a lot of opinions about headphones. And, obviously, not every headphone appeals to everyone. I suggest, though, to counter prejudice, that you take a few minutes to look at the aforementioned thread as well as this one:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/rev...2500-a-252836/

When I have the opportunity, I plan on investigating these other models of the DT 770's. Hopefully, after hearing them, I will find myself in agreement with your assessment of these headphones. Don't misunderstand, the one model of the DT 770's I heard, while not being the most accurate headphone I've ever heard, I found listening to them to be an enjoyable listening experience, none-the-less. Actually, I almost bought them but then, I discovered the Ultrasones and bought them instead.

 

[demoNMaCHiN3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just because you don't believe in something doesn't make it any less real. And, I can assure you that the S-Logic aspect of the Proline 750 and 2500 is indeed quite real. When people say that the Ultrasone headphones sound "weird" (or words to that effect) it is often because they are not wearing the headphones correctly. There are other theories about why some people can not hear the S-Logic surround sound effect. Those theories are mentioned in my first post of a thread I started: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/sou...phones-336543/ About the subject of crossfeed: It is still rare for professional sound engineers to mix using headphones. As I mentioned in my previous post, I have experienced only two professional situations where music tracks were mixed using headphones. Both of those situations involved Jazz music and a Stand-up Bass (among other instruments). In one of those situations, the AKG K701 headphones were used. In the other, the Ultrasone Pro 750 headphones were used. In neither case was crossfeed found necessary and was not utilized. I could imagine, however, that with less accurate headphones than these, that crossfeed would be very helpful in mixing, and probably necessary. But it is highly doubtful that less accurate headphones would be used in professional mixing situations. Believe it or not, I'm going to take your side of our discussion, to some degree, regarding your stance on the DT 770's. The reason I'm doing this is because, since I wrote my most previous post to you, I have come to understand that there are different models of the DT770's. This was something I did not know at the time I wrote that post. To the best of my recollection, I have heard only one model of the DT 770. Consequently, the comments I made in my previous post are based on hearing that one particular model of the DT770. And, since that one is the only model of the DT770 I have heard, I can not make any comment on any other model of the DT 770's sound or performance. My point is, you could be correct about another model of the DT 770 that I have not heard. I do not know. Since you have a pair of DT 770's, that serve your purposes so well, I say, "fantastic"! People have a lot of opinions about headphones. And, obviously, not every headphone appeals to everyone. I suggest, though, to counter prejudice, that you take a few minutes to look at the aforementioned thread as well as this one: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/rev...2500-a-252836/ When I have the opportunity, I plan on investigating these other models of the DT 770's. Hopefully, after hearing them, I will find myself in agreement with your assessment of these headphones. Don't misunderstand, the one model of the DT 770's I heard, while not being the most accurate headphone I've ever heard, I found listening to them to be an enjoyable listening experience, none-the-less. Actually, I almost bought them but then, I discovered the Ultrasones and bought them instead.

 

[b0dhi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif About the subject of crossfeed: It is still rare for professional sound engineers to mix using headphones. As I mentioned in my previous post, I have experienced only two professional situations where music tracks were mixed using headphones. Both of those situations involved Jazz music and a Stand-up Bass (among other instruments). In one of those situations, the AKG K701 headphones were used. In the other, the Ultrasone Pro 750 headphones were used. In neither case was crossfeed found necessary and was not utilized. I could imagine, however, that with less accurate headphones than these, that crossfeed would be very helpful in mixing, and probably necessary.

The reason crossfeed is needed has nothing to do with accuracy. Even if you used the theoretically perfect headphone, you would still need crossfeed if you were mastering your audio with the intention of it being heard on speakers. That's because when you use speakers, the two bass channels interact in the air and can cancel out, superimpose, cause beats, etc which would make it sound quite different than it does through headphones. Crossfeed emulates, to a degree, this interaction, so you can check nothing untoward is going to happen when you play your mix on speakers.

 

[eruditass]

electronic music is the worst because many people master them on so many different types of headphones/speakers and some just end up sounding so bad and basically the opposite of what the headphones they were using to make it in order to compensate.

i'd imagine those mastered with dt770's would have little bass and lots of mids in peculiar places.

 

[shigzeo]

funny. i think the 750 are overall better listening experiences compared to the dt770 but for monitoring, i would choose the dt770. it is not as mid oriented and does not tame the raw bass. the dt770 show bass but they do not overblow it at all.

for mixing, truly dt770 are amazing but for listening, the 750 are so far ahead.

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif The reason crossfeed is needed has nothing to do with accuracy. Even if you used the theoretically perfect headphone, you would still need crossfeed if you were mastering your audio with the intention of it being heard on speakers. That's because when you use speakers, the two bass channels interact in the air and can cancel out, superimpose, cause beats, etc which would make it sound quite different than it does through headphones. Crossfeed emulates, to a degree, this interaction, so you can check nothing untoward is going to happen when you play your mix on speakers.

I'm not a recording engineer but I have been involved in recording production (among other musical related projects) over a period of several years. Here's what I know for certain about the two projects I mentioned in a previous post that were mixed with headphones: a crossfeed filter was never used. It might have had something to do with the idea that the headphones were plugged directly into the soundboard. Also, there are some situations where using crossfeed will actually diminish the sound of the bass and detract generally from the accuracy of the recording as it is heard during mixing through the headphones.
I'm not an expert in this particular field but what I've come to understand is that the Crossfeed emulation (you mentioned) involves signal processing which can be the cause of inaccuracy of the sound.