[ratedgprodigy]

Hello
 
I'm upgrading my computer audio this month.
 
I'd appreciate some knowledge from anyone who has more experience with computer audio and what they think is the most important
 
Here is what I currently have. As you can tell, I'm willing to spend in the $150 to $250 range for equipment.
 
HEADPHONES: Denon 2000 (Purchased in January 2010)
SPEAKERS: Klipsche Pro Media 2.1 (Purchased this weekend)
ON-BOARD AUDIO CARD: RealTek ALC883 (Came with computer in 2006)
AMP: PA2V2 (Purchased from Head-Fi user in January 2010)
 
I'm very happy with the Denons and I'm pretty sure I'll be happy with the computer speakers when they arrive. I'm mostly a headphone listener anyway and the demos I listened too sounded much better than the $20 Labtec speakers I've used for years.
 
Now I'm thinking about upgrading my sound card or amplifier. I'm not asking for recommendations (that's bonus). What I'd like to know is which is more important with headphone listening? Spending $150-250 on a sound card or $150-250 on an amplifier upgrade?
 
I'm leaning toward the sound card just because I don't think it's juicing up my amp and headphones like it should. They sound much better in my headphone jack on my Phillips stereo. But I've heard other people say that sound card is completely irrelevant when it comes to music listening.
 
I only listen to music (Usually Electronic Dance Music) and have no interest in movie or gaming. Not sure if that makes a difference.
 
Thanks for advice.

 

[JRG1990]

Probley the soundcard, the biggest problem is it's stuck in a pc case full of EMI, within your budget for $200 you could get the fiio E9/E7 an extenal dac & amp, or soundcard with a good amp like the ASUS Xonar Essence.

 

[ratedgprodigy]

Quote:

Probley the soundcard, the biggest problem is it's stuck in a pc case full of EMI, within your budget for $200 you could get the fiio E9/E7 an extenal dac & amp, or soundcard with a good amp like the ASUS Xonar Essence.

 
Looks like fine choices. The ASUS Xonar was actually what I had my eyes on. As far as the Filo, it's almost 40% off on Amazon ($116 instead of $199) so that's sounds like a great deal too. Will have to research that.
 
 

 

[Citan]

The cables of course!

 

[jasonb]

Just get an amp and a DAC, definitely a DAC.

 

[alexsj]

A dac makes sense since you like your headphones and amp.  The HRT musicstreamer II runs $150 and is a very fine asynchronous usb dac. 

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Looks like fine choices. The ASUS Xonar was actually what I had my eyes on. As far as the Filo, it's almost 40% off on Amazon ($116 instead of $199) so that's sounds like a great deal too. Will have to research that.

 
Fiio makes some good stuff. The E9 outputs more power than you'll ever need with a D2000. Having both a 1/8th and 1/4th inch plug is sort of nice, except the 1/8th plug has a 43 ohm output impedance for some reason (

). Total harmonic distortion is good, but not all that great at low impedances (like your Denon). Noise is okay. The Essence STX has better noise, better THD, and better crosstalk. None of the differences will be very audible, if at all. Both are handicapped by a 10 ohm impedance on their 1/4th jack. That's going to boost your Denon's sub-bass a little between about 20-40Hz (provided the PAV2V has a lower impedance). The impedance bump on those headphones is pretty small, so the difference won't be huge. Objectively amp coloration is a bad thing, but with headphones a little extra sub-bass never really hurts 

 
I like my Essence STX. I'm thinking of suckering my mom into helping with an ABX test between it and the Benchmark DAC1 ($995) because I don't hear a difference right now.
 
 

A dac makes sense since you like your headphones and amp.  The HRT musicstreamer II runs $150 and is a very fine asynchronous usb dac. 

The Essence STX measures better, has an amp, and can do Dolby processing for games and movies. I don't see a real advantage to the MusicStreamer for a stationary desktop, though obviously it would be a better choice for a transportable or laptop DAC.

 

[ratedgprodigy]

Okay... I am new with these Digitial to Audio Converters so I'm not completely aware of how they work.
 
From what I understand, sound cards already have DACs built into them. Are DACs better for music because they won't emit as much noise as sound cards since they don't run off power from the motherboard? In that case, what does a $200ish sound card give you that a $200ish DAC doesn't? I'm assuming they're better for gaming and 5.1 speaker systems.
 
I think I'll use this Electric Avenue amp a bit longer and upgrade the amp when I'm willing to spend $400 to $500 on a desktop amp. Therefore, it's between sound card and DAC. The ASUS and HRT recommendations make it difficult to decide, after reading the glowing reviews with both of them, hehe. 

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Okay... I am new with these Digitial to Audio Converters so I'm not completely aware of how they work.
 
From what I understand, sound cards already have DACs built into them. Are DACs better for music because they won't emit as much noise as sound cards since they don't run off power from the motherboard? In that case, what does a $200ish sound card give you that a $200ish DAC doesn't? I'm assuming they're better for gaming and 5.1 speaker systems.
 
I think I'll use this Electric Avenue amp a bit longer and upgrade the amp when I'm willing to spend $400 to $500 on a desktop amp. Therefore, it's between sound card and DAC. The ASUS and HRT recommendations make it difficult to decide, after reading the glowing reviews with both of them, hehe. 

Everything that can play digital music (MP3 players, CD players, motherboards) has a DAC. They're of varying qualities, though. Two of the most important aspects to look for in a DAC are Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) and noise (N). THD basically means that whenever a frequency is played, other frequencies not in the original recording are played as well. The lower the THD as a dB (volume) level and percentage the better. Anything under like 0.05% is going to be inaudible. Noise is a hissing or humming introduced by the DAC. That's not all that's important, obviously.
 
Typically the EMI inside a computer case will increase noise. That's not the case with the ASUS Xonar Essence STX, or at least the impact it has on its measured noise levels is negligible. It's shielded to prevent that. It still measures better than the MusicStreamer for noise, despite being measured while in a running computer. Here are the Stereophile measurements for the Essence STX and MusicStreamer (they don't appear to have any of the Music Streamer II? Should I check the Music Streamer+ for a more accurate comparison? How significant were the changes?). I'd avoid the subjective review portion because it's really all a bunch of bull (IMO! 

).
 
In summary:

1. Essence STX has a published Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR) of 124dB (117dB with amp included). MusicStreamer has a published SNR of 86dB. Higher is better. The MusicStreamer's SNR is almost as bad as what ASUS claims is typically for a motherboard chip.
2. Essence STX has a flat frequency response, only rolled off -0.25dB at 20kHz. MusicStreamer is rolled off about -0.5dB at 20Hz, has a bumpy treble response and rolled off nearly -2dB at 20kHz. Flatter is better. This difference will be audible, it might even be pleasurable to have roll-off, but it's nothing a software EQ can't do and that can be turned on or off at will.
3. Essence STX has crosstalk ranging from -130dB at 20Hz to -105dB at 20kHz, with a -90dB spike at 1kHz. The MusicStreamer ranges from -120dB to just under -90dB with a much smaller 1kHz bump. Lower (bigger negative) is better. The difference won't be audible unless you blast your music at, like, 140dB (which you shouldn't, BTW).
4. Essence STX noise is -130dB and flat. MusicStreamer noise is -118dB with two little peaks reaching up to -110dB. Lower is better. Neither will be audible.
5. Essence STX has a very clean 16 bit sine wave. MusicStreamer's looks like a kid went wild with a blue and red crayon. Not exactly sure what to make of that except the STX is better.
6. Essence STX THD is all below -110dB. MusicStreamer's second harmonic peaks at -75dB and the third (more damaging) harmonic is at -85dB. Lower is better. This may be audible if you're playing loud, I'm not sure, but the STX is much better here.
7. Essence STX IMD is also all below -110dB. MusicStreamer's peaks above -60dB in the audible range, with other peaks at around -70 and -80dB. Lower is better. I don't know how audible IMD is, but again the STX is much better here.
8. Essence STX jitter has spurious peaks up to nearly -120dB. MusicStreamer has peaks up to nearly -105dB. Lower is better. This shouldn't be audible.

 
Again, I see no reason to choose the Music Streamer over the Essence STX unless you want to take it with you to other computers. Even then, I'm sure there's a better choice somewhere, but I don't know of one. The Essence STX, on the other hand, measures better than any other sub-$200 DAC that I've seen (I haven't seen many), and it includes a good headphone amp, and it offers advantages in games and perhaps movies with Dolby Headphone, and it does all of this in the "harmful" computer environment. It is a very good buy, I think.
 
Checking the original Music Streamer+, the measurements are better but still not as good as the Essence STX. Unless the changes from Music Streamer to Music Streamer II were substantial, it's still not as good a DAC.
 
The Music Streamer Pro measures about as good as the Essence STX, and actually nearly identical in many ways. Of course, it costs nearly three times as much and has no headphone amp.

 

[ratedgprodigy]

Quote:

 
Fiio makes some good stuff. The E9 outputs more power than you'll ever need with a D2000. Having both a 1/8th and 1/4th inch plug is sort of nice, except the 1/8th plug has a 43 ohm output impedance for some reason (

). Total harmonic distortion is good, but not all that great at low impedances (like your Denon). Noise is okay. The Essence STX has better noise, better THD, and better crosstalk. None of the differences will be very audible, if at all. Both are handicapped by a 10 ohm impedance on their 1/4th jack. That's going to boost your Denon's sub-bass a little between about 20-40Hz (provided the PAV2V has a lower impedance). The impedance bump on those headphones is pretty small, so the difference won't be huge. Objectively amp coloration is a bad thing, but with headphones a little extra sub-bass never really hurts 

 
I like my Essence STX. I'm thinking of suckering my mom into helping with an ABX test between it and the Benchmark DAC1 ($995) because I don't hear a difference right now.
 

The Essence STX measures better, has an amp, and can do Dolby processing for games and movies. I don't see a real advantage to the MusicStreamer for a stationary desktop, though obviously it would be a better choice for a transportable or laptop DAC.

 


Quote:

Everything that can play digital music (MP3 players, CD players, motherboards) has a DAC. They're of varying qualities, though. Two of the most important aspects to look for in a DAC are Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) and noise (N). THD basically means that whenever a frequency is played, other frequencies not in the original recording are played as well. The lower the THD as a dB (volume) level and percentage the better. Anything under like 0.05% is going to be inaudible. Noise is a hissing or humming introduced by the DAC. That's not all that's important, obviously.
 
Typically the EMI inside a computer case will increase noise. That's not the case with the ASUS Xonar Essence STX, or at least the impact it has on its measured noise levels is negligible. It's shielded to prevent that. It still measures better than the MusicStreamer for noise, despite being measured while in a running computer. Here are the Stereophile measurements for the Essence STX and MusicStreamer (they don't appear to have any of the Music Streamer II? Should I check the Music Streamer+ for a more accurate comparison? How significant were the changes?). I'd avoid the subjective review portion because it's really all a bunch of bull (IMO! 

).
 
In summary:

1. Essence STX has a published Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR) of 124dB (117dB with amp included). MusicStreamer has a published SNR of 86dB. Higher is better. The MusicStreamer's SNR is almost as bad as what ASUS claims is typically for a motherboard chip.
2. Essence STX has a flat frequency response, only rolled off -0.25dB at 20kHz. MusicStreamer is rolled off about -0.5dB at 20Hz, has a bumpy treble response and rolled off nearly -2dB at 20kHz. Flatter is better. This difference will be audible, it might even be pleasurable to have roll-off, but it's nothing a software EQ can't do and that can be turned on or off at will.
3. Essence STX has crosstalk ranging from -130dB at 20Hz to -105dB at 20kHz, with a -90dB spike at 1kHz. The MusicStreamer ranges from -120dB to just under -90dB with a much smaller 1kHz bump. Lower (bigger negative) is better. The difference won't be audible unless you blast your music at, like, 140dB (which you shouldn't, BTW).
4. Essence STX noise is -130dB and flat. MusicStreamer noise is -118dB with two little peaks reaching up to -110dB. Lower is better. Neither will be audible.
5. Essence STX has a very clean 16 bit sine wave. MusicStreamer's looks like a kid went wild with a blue and red crayon. Not exactly sure what to make of that except the STX is better.
6. Essence STX THD is all below -110dB. MusicStreamer's second harmonic peaks at -75dB and the third (more damaging) harmonic is at -85dB. Lower is better. This may be audible if you're playing loud, I'm not sure, but the STX is much better here.
7. Essence STX IMD is also all below -110dB. MusicStreamer's peaks above -60dB in the audible range, with other peaks at around -70 and -80dB. Lower is better. I don't know how audible IMD is, but again the STX is much better here.
8. Essence STX jitter has spurious peaks up to nearly -120dB. MusicStreamer has peaks up to nearly -105dB. Lower is better. This shouldn't be audible.

 
Again, I see no reason to choose the Music Streamer over the Essence STX unless you want to take it with you to other computers. Even then, I'm sure there's a better choice somewhere, but I don't know of one. The Essence STX, on the other hand, measures better than any other sub-$200 DAC that I've seen (I haven't seen many), and it includes a good headphone amp, and it offers advantages in games and perhaps movies with Dolby Headphone, and it does all of this in the "harmful" computer environment. It is a very good buy, I think.

Great info. That sounds like what I'd be looking for and then some for $200. Anything would have to be better than this RealTek ALC883 that came with my HP in 2006.

 

[Modo]

When considering a PC for audio playback, it would be a good idea to consider the quality of the PSU. People often replace the wall warts of external DACs, considering them a source of noise. You can find independent power measurements for some PSU brand names, like SeaSonic.

 

[jhelsas]

Hello guys,
 
    I have the same doubt of the creator of the thread.
 
I have right now an ATH-A700 that lives 24/7 plugged on my PC. In a possible and not so distant future, i might buy an Denon D2000 or something on the same bracket.

Since i work a lot on my pc, and music is important to me, i wanted o improve the SQ of my PC. I reason that made me think on upgrading it is that both my A700 and my senn's CX500 sound better than my pc when pluged on my Sansa fuze, and this have been bothering me so some time now.
 
I have an Via HD audio(onboard of an asus board) that i think that is equivalent to a realtek, and i've read that there are lots of ways to upgrade the PC's audio, but reading this forum it seams that the best < US$ 250 solution is the Xonar STX. I still don't have a good set of speakers, but when i get it will be a 2.0 or 2.1 set, i have no need, will or room for a 5.1 set. My primar concern is music, no need for fancy gaming stuff( I do game a bit, not nearly as much as i enjoy listening to music).
 
There is some questions i wanted to make that have answers in this forum, but i couldn't find objective answers, so this is what i wanted to ask.
 
Suposing an US$ 150 - 250 budget, and i can consider a bit more if it makes a big diference, these are the questions:
 
1) As a sound card, would the STX be the best option for this kind of setting?
2) How does it perform against other xonar/xense cards from Asus, also against other manufactures, like Creative, Auzentech and Omega?
3) Since i'm new to hi-fi audio, would be any diference for me between the ST or STX?
4) Is there any other good solution? I hear about DACs/Amps, but don't know enough to judge by myself besides the objective measurements.
5) If in the future, i would come to buy a set of DAC/Amp for the PC, would be possible to integrate/use the STX with the DAC?
6) If yes, would it be an improvement over the onboard audio+DAC/amp?
7) Could i plug a set of spearks to an DAC/amp?(i know that's a silly question, but i don't understand how they work)
 
Edit:
  I don't know how psu quality can be decisive for the answers, as the last post mentioned, if it is helpfull i have an HX850 psu.
  Also, linux, more especificaly Ubuntu, compatibility is almost necessary since i work, live and hear basicaly on ubuntu. I don't know how the others perform but i at least know that the ST and STX have, as far as i know, working drivers under ubuntu.
  One last thing, most of my music is flac 16/44.1 that if ripped from my cds. I still don't have any hi-res flac, also i have a few, but not many, mp3s
 
 
Thanks everybody

 

[jhelsas]

Anyone?

 

[laxsar]

 
Quote:

1) As a sound card, would the STX be the best option for this kind of setting?
Yes. Because in it's price point, I find the STX a gateway device to high fidelity computer audio. It has many excellent features, notably a fantastic DAC, and on top of it all, a decent integrated headphone amp.
 
There is also this thread http://www.head-fi.org/t/421890/the-xonar-essence-stx-q-a-tweaking-impressions-thread .
 
 
2) How does it perform against other xonar/xense cards from Asus, also against other manufactures, like Creative, Auzentech and Omega?
IIRC according to the reviews that I have read, they are all excellent in terms of measurements. They do however differ in subjective listening tests, and have their own audio 'flavor'. The general consensus is, STX is more music centric with a dash of gaming features in their drivers while the Forte is geared more towards gaming since it utilizes Creative's X-fi audio processor. 
 
 
3) Since i'm new to hi-fi audio, would be any diference for me between the ST or STX?
Audible difference, some say ST sounds better than the STX, I say that it sounds the same to my ears.
 
Hardware differences: ST uses PCI interface, STX uses PCI Express. The ST also has a jitter reduction chip (CS2000) and the option to install an addon daughter card for 7.1 channel surround sound (sold separately).
 
 
4) Is there any other good solution? I hear about DACs/Amps, but don't know enough to judge by myself besides the objective measurements.
Another good option within your budget would be the Fiio E7/E9 combo.
 
So, you can also call Fiio E7/E9 combo a sound card with an amp, because it is after all an external DAC (E7)/Amp (E9).
 
Here are a few links and excerpts from them that I find helpful in understanding computer audio and DACs/AMPs as a whole:
 

1. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/faq - "I'm a total beginner I don't even know what I don't know, where do I start?
   First and foremost computer audio is not rocket science. Although some Computer Audiophile readers are rocket scientists this level of skill and education are not prerequisites. CA is a laid back site where increasing enjoyment of our wonderful hobby through the use of music servers and high end audio equipment is paramount."
2. http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/index.html - "This website covers the basic of computer audio. When I started a couple of years ago, I was completely blank.Yes I knew that you can download a MP3 and play it over a pair of fancy desktop speakers. But I didn't realize that a computer could be a source for high quality audio too."
3. nwavguy - "PC DAC? If your source is a PC or Mac, should you use an outboard DAC? It depends. If your PC is your main music source and you have a very high quality speakers (which excludes 99% of “desktop PC speakers”) and/or headphones in the $200+ category, then yes you might want to consider an outboard DAC—especially if you can hear any audible flaws when using the one in your PC."

 
5) If in the future, i would come to buy a set of DAC/Amp for the PC, would be possible to integrate/use the STX with the DAC?
Yes. I use my Xonar Essence ST to connect it to an external desktop amp. You can either use the STX's RCA Line-out, Optical or Coax. In fact, if in the future you bought a powerful DAC+Amp combo for example Burson Audio HA160D, you will most likely be using USB to connect the DAC/AMP, and choosing the preferred Device in Windows/Ubuntu. You can also use STX -> SPDIF out and Windows 7's digital passthrough so that it will utilize your external DAC instead of using STX's DAC.
 
 
6) If yes, would it be an improvement over the onboard audio+DAC/amp?
Tremendous improvement.
 
Why? I would assume that by purchasing some audiophile headphones you have some level of music appreciation and somewhat capable of distinguishing good sound quality and bad sound quality. The 200$ STX price tag isn't set there for mere placebo effects, to appreciative and experienced ears the sound is ultra clean, superb high/low freq. extension, and musical. Which makes it much, much better than any onboard audio offerings to date.
 
I used to be a non-audiophile but I have always loved music. I used to appreciate the difference of SQ between my old VIA integrated audio vs. Nvidia's Nforce2 Soundstorm audio. When I first bought my SB Audigy 1 it basically blew away the quality of any of the current and old onboard audio that I've listened to. After I bought a Xonar DG, it beat the SB Audigy 1 by a big margin. When I got my Xonar Essence ST, my Xonar DG sounded muddled and cheap compared to the ST.
 
So would a 459$ DAC or a 2000$ one be better than the ST/STX I believe so, how much better really depends on the listener and his/her budget. Would a 200$ sound card be better than an onboard one? To me, it definitely is a YES, night and day of differences in terms of clarity, noise and musicality.
 
 
7) Could i plug a set of spearks to an DAC/amp?(i know that's a silly question, but i don't understand how they work)
Yes. Recognizing and understanding the inputs and outputs of your devices would be a good start, as in RCA out/in, optical out, spdif in etc. 
 

 
 

 

[jhelsas]

I'll read the references and come back for other questions that i still have.
 
Thanks a lot!