[bigshot]

So everyone perceives every DAP, DAC, Cable and Headphone/IEM the exact same way? Hmm. That sounds crazy?

Everyone has human ears and their hearing is limited to what human ears can hear. They may perceive far less than human ears can hear, but they can’t hear more.

 

[2leftears]

So everyone perceives every DAP, DAC, Cable and Headphone/IEM the exact same way? Hmm. That sounds crazy?

Nobody is arguing that. Of course everyone perceives those things differently.

But one needs to be careful what to attribute that difference in perception to. Many audiophiles jump to the conclusion that any perceived difference in sound is due to a difference in the actual sound these devices/tweaks produce. But for some of these devices/tweaks the difference in perception is almost certainly down to other external factors.

The common thread throughout all these arguments in the Sound Science forum is that the proponents of these tweaks and devices underestimate the extent to which perception of sound can be influenced by external factors other than the sound itself. But the commonly displayed belief in the infallibility of sound perception with respect to the actual sound exposed to is no basis for making either scientific claims or pointing to the science having got it wrong or being dogmatic.

If someone decides that those other external factors are part and parcel of the perception of sound, including perception bias and expectation bias, and therefore should not be separated from the discussion as to what tweaks do and don't make a difference (I think that is what @Ghoostknight meant to discuss when starting this thread), that is fine. But it should be made clear that this cannot be used as an argument/excuse to make up 'undiscovered physics' nonsense about the actual reproduction and fidelity of sound itself.

Placebos in medicine can work, for some individuals. But that doesn't imply the inert or harmless substance chosen for the placebo actually works, nor does it make sense to cook up a misguided biological pathway for that substance to explain its misunderstood efficacy.

 

[gregorio]

So everyone perceives every DAP, DAC, Cable and Headphone/IEM the exact same way? Hmm. That sounds crazy?

That’s not only sounds crazy but actually is crazy. In fact it’s even crazier than you assert because you’ve presented it as a strawman argument!!

I stated “Yes, each person can perceive the (same) sound differently…” And you respond with: “So everyone perceives every DAC, etc. the exact same way … sounds crazy” - An argument you’ve completely made-up, which is the exact the opposite of the argument I actually made, a perfect example of a strawman argument!

To repeat yet again(!): Everyone can and does perceive things differently but when we’re measuring say a DAC, we’re not measuring everyone, in fact we’re not measuring anyone at all, we’re measuring a DAC! What is so hard to understand? Furthermore, we cannot measure human perception and even if we could, DACs do not have any human perception to measure! Again, what’s so hard to understand here?

You are taking the differences/variables of human perception and falsely stating they’re the differences/variables of IEMs, DACs, cables or whatever, which is clearly and obviously not possible because DACs, etc., do not have any human perception!

G

 

[anli]

As for human perception... From time to time I like to read something about brain, conscience, awareness and so on. One of the most interesting idea I have met (and it is stated to be a neurobiological fact) is this one:

- almost always perception process is started by brain
- from the beginning it already contains some expectations
- feelings supply some information
- but brain automatically detects just a delta between the expectations and the information
- this delta could be taken into account to modify brain's model of the world ("reality", including ourselves)
- this delta could be ignored

I haven't met a situation this model isn't able to clarify.
Don't think about all these things too long: you will inevitably conclude we live in a world of illusions.
We do.

 

[Redcarmoose]

The human mind is so truly amazing. Where I live we are the very farthest from Western ideas about psychology. Where we meet with Priests and Clairvoyants who know everything about you before you even talk with them. One lady started singing and placed her fingers atop my Wife’s head. The next thing you know my Wife blacked-out and a spirit entered her. She started to dance to the singing and after a few moments she was brought back, not having any memory of the event. She didn’t even know she was dancing. Then the lady did it to my Wife’s sister too. Just like switching a switch, it was that easy.

A Priest took me back in my mind to my childhood. This feature of thought I did not ask for, but the Priest we meet often with. Though early on when I just started visiting him he took me back to about 8 years old. You forget who you are as an adult and become a simple child for a little while. It is a moment when you only realize you have been sent into this state after you come back. Then in hindsight you realize what he did. But people give this guy pieces of land, new cars etc etc. Why? Because he helps them so much.

The lady when I met her the first thing she did was look at me and grabed her hands and placed them on her head (over her ears) and said “boom-boom” that was her impression of me. She knew I had spent my life listening to music with headphones and that was what she was trying to tell me. She was right.

These people are at times Clairvoyants or Priests and it takes years and years to finally meet a real one, as there are so many fake ones.

What this taught me was the mind is very different from what regular psychology teachers think. That there is a Western thought and an Eastern thought process.

 

[bigshot]

Fidelity doesn’t require the brain to interpret sound. You have a recording and you have a copy of a recording that has been run through a DAC. Are they audibly different? You don’t need to go into metaphysics to answer that question.

 

[anli]

Fidelity doesn’t require the brain to interpret sound. You have a recording and you have a copy of a recording that has been run through a DAC. Are they audibly different? You don’t need to go into metaphysics to answer that question.

Sure. But you are forced to turn expectations off with ABX or something similar.

 

[castleofargh]

The human mind is so truly amazing. Where I live we are the very farthest from Western ideas about psychology. Where we meet with Priests and Clairvoyants who know everything about you before you even talk with them. One lady started singing and placed her fingers atop my Wife’s head. The next thing you know my Wife blacked-out and a spirit entered her. She started to dance to the singing and after a few moments she was brought back, not having any memory of the event. She didn’t even know she was dancing. Then the lady did it to my Wife’s sister too. Just like switching a switch, it was that easy.

A Priest took me back in my mind to my childhood. This feature of thought I did not ask for, but the Priest we meet often with. Though early on when I just started visiting him he took me back to about 8 years old. You forget who you are as an adult and become a simple child for a little while. It is a moment when you only realize you have been sent into this state after you come back. Then in hindsight you realize what he did. But people give this guy pieces of land, new cars etc etc. Why? Because he helps them so much.

The lady when I met her the first thing she did was look at me and grab her hands and place them on her head and say “boom-boom” that was her impression of me. She knew I had spent my life listening to music with headphones and that was what she was trying to tell me. She was right.

These people are at times Clairvoyants or Priests and it takes years and years to finally meet a real one, as there are so many fake ones.

What this taught me was the mind is very different from what regular psychology teachers think. That there is a Western thought and an Eastern thought process.

A bunch of what you describe, points strongly toward a form of hypnosis.
As for eastern/Western, I think it's not the right dichotomy. A more useful one IMO is what has been demonstrated(under controlled conditions), and what has not.
I'm sure you have witnessed what you mention, but I've seen a guy make balls disappear and reappear from his hands right in front of my eyes, should I conclude that the guy really dematerializes objects at will? Is my subjective experience of the event, proof of his magical powers? Probably not.
The notion of what qualifies a fact, or what counts as a proof, is what we need to be most rigorous about(so we don't end up doing like OP). And in that respect, spirit never got past the hypothesis level. Not for lack of trying. At the same time, some mentalists do an impressive job imitating those with "powers". So maybe the explanation is simple?

 

[bigshot]

Sure. But you are forced to turn expectations off with ABX or something similar.

Or look at measurements and see if they’re in the neighborhood of audibility. Or a simple null test.

 

[2leftears]

What this taught me was the mind is very different from what regular psychology teachers think. That there is a Western thought and an Eastern thought process.

As for eastern/Western, I think it's not the right dichotomy.

I'm no expert in the matter, but in my experience the ubiquitous notion of "eastern vs western philosophy" is often a false dichotomy; too broad-brush a concept to be given the significance it often is. Much depends on the limited historic period observed within which one frames this supposed contrast, as much as it depend on the topic within which one considers this contrast. Often the very same ideas are expressed in both cultural spheres if you are prepared to look a few decades or centuries back in time. Make it a few millennia and from the historic and archeological evidence we have it really becomes swings and roundabouts.

The teachings of Confucius and Plato see similarities; Japanese Shinto has some concepts in common with historic paganism in the Anglo-Saxon and Germanic world, as well as native American culture. And don't forget that together with art and culture, religion and philosophy have been travelling for tens of thousands of years, be it along old neolithic trade routes, Viking trade routes, thanks to the exploits of the likes of Alexander The Great, along trade routes such as the silk road aided by explorers such as Zhang Qian, or aided by more recent explorers such as Marco Polo, Ibn Batutta, Zheng He etc.

 

[Redcarmoose]

A bunch of what you describe, points strongly toward a form of hypnosis.
As for eastern/Western, I think it's not the right dichotomy. A more useful one IMO is what has been demonstrated(under controlled conditions), and what has not.
I'm sure you have witnessed what you mention, but I've seen a guy make balls disappear and reappear from his hands right in front of my eyes, should I conclude that the guy really dematerializes objects at will? Is my subjective experience of the event, proof of his magical powers? Probably not.
The notion of what qualifies a fact, or what counts as a proof, is what we need to be most rigorous about(so we don't end up doing like OP). And in that respect, spirit never got past the hypothesis level. Not for lack of trying. At the same time, some mentalists do an impressive job imitating those with "powers". So maybe the explanation is simple?

Haha, of course I was expecting a response like this one. And truly it is fine. This is not an argumentative (response) post in any fashion. I could describe 100s of such stories. And in the end I chose two or three to simply formulate the path I’m on in relation to the topic. A magic guy with a top-hat and hypnosis as an explanation is understandable and typically the style of explanation you would get from Westerners. Truly this in the end comes down to spirituality and I’m not sure such a topic is even permitted here on the thread? Which is fine, but that is where all this leads, at least in response to my individual post it does.

There are so many things that modern day psychology tries to explain, yet again it probably has to do with spirituality in the end. To talk about dances......Sanghyang Dancing has gone on at least since 1393 AD when it was brought to the island. Here there is a further history (where it came from) but I’m not sure about it. The dance concerns two prepubescent girls that are put into a trance and dance synchronized for typically about 10 minutes, yet their eyes are closed and they have no formal dance training. The big deal here and what is hard to get your head around is that they are only dancing to singing and while the singing has a rhythm, there is no way that it has pinpoint illustrated features to change positions on a moments notice, and that’s what pin-point actions the girls jointly perform for a small audience! Plus the girls are around 7 to 9 years old with (remember) no formal training. The belief is that a single spirit is inhabiting their bodies. When I first saw this dance 21 years ago I didn’t think much of it. As the Western mind is closed and makes up sedated stories to answer all questions regarding such happenstance, totally normal. Yet this is in many ways was just like the “hypnosis” my Wife was under when she danced. And the girls doing the Sanghyang also have no memory of the event. They are carried out atop a carpet and after the dance are passed out to the floor, only to come-too with faces in expression like waking from sleep.

Modern medicine/psychology is primarily driven by the pharmaceutical companies and while 1/2 the answers the business provide do work, many would argue the completeness in totality?

Yet at the same time modern medicine has done wonders which the total summary of Eastern ways could only dream of accomplishing.

What does this have to do with audio? It is just perception can be a very convoluted and unstable thing to pin-down. That once you bring spirituality into the topic, as the two subjects have held hands for 1000s of years........you (then) start to grasp the true wonderments of the subject. Check out how only in the last few 100 years music has lost its 100% connection to spirituality.

 

[bigshot]

I don’t know what any of this has to do with home audio.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I don’t know what any of this has to do with home audio.

What we are concerned with is the fact that the human mind is half of the equation of the audio experience, the other half is gear and recorded music. Music has only in the last few years been recorded, and able to be played back synthetically. Mankind’s musical history has primarily been 100% live.

 

[bigshot]

The human mind has nothing to do with fidelity.

And if I was dividing up percentages, I’d say music is 99% of the home audio experience. The rest just supports that.

 

[castleofargh]

Haha, of course I was expecting a response like this one. And truly it is fine. This is not an argumentative (response) post in any fashion. I could describe 100s of such stories. And in the end I chose two or three to simply formulate the path I’m on in relation to the topic. A magic guy with a top-hat and hypnosis as an explanation is understandable and typically the style of explanation you would get from Westerners. Truly this in the end comes down to spirituality and I’m not sure such a topic is even permitted here on the thread? Which is fine, but that is where all this leads, at least in response to my individual post it does.

There are so many things that modern day psychology tries to explain, yet again it probably has to do with spirituality in the end. To talk about dances......Sanghyang Dancing has gone on at least since 1393 AD when it was brought to the island. Here there is a further history (where it came from) but I’m not sure about it. The dance concerns two prepubescent girls that are put into a trance and dance synchronized for typically about 10 minutes, yet their eyes are closed and they have no formal dance training. The big deal here and what is hard to get your head around is that they are only dancing to singing and while the singing has a rhythm, there is no way that it has pinpoint illustrated features to change positions on a moments notice, and that’s what pin-point actions the girls jointly perform for a small audience! Plus the girls are around 7 to 9 years old with (remember) no formal training. The belief is that a single spirit is inhabiting their bodies. When I first saw this dance 21 years ago I didn’t think much of it. As the Western mind is closed and makes up sedated stories to answer all questions regarding such happenstance, totally normal. Yet this is in many ways was just like the “hypnosis” my Wife was under when she danced. And the girls doing the Sanghyang also have no memory of the event. They are carried out atop a carpet and after the dance are passed out to the floor, only to come-too with faces in expression like waking from sleep.

Modern medicine/psychology is primarily driven by the pharmaceutical companies and while 1/2 the answers the business provide do work, many would argue the completeness in totality?

Yet at the same time modern medicine has done wonders which the total summary of Eastern ways could only dream of accomplishing.

What does this have to do with audio? It is just perception can be a very convoluted and unstable thing to pin-down. That once you bring spirituality into the topic, as the two subjects have held hands for 1000s of years........you (then) start to grasp the true wonderments of the subject. Check out how only in the last few 100 years music has lost its 100% connection to spirituality.

Yes, I'm entirely predictable in that regard. My mother just needed one friend she likes telling here about crystals, to accept pseudoscience properties as truth. That's not to say cultural influences don't exist, but they certainly aren't formatting everybody to the same mental mold. At best, because repetition is hard to distinguish from truth inside the brain, it makes people less likely to question what has surrounded their upbringing.

A more scientific approach helps remove some cultural influences, like so many other biases going against a common search for truth.