[tantadruj]

I am looking into buying HiFi headphones, my first, and i must say i am thoroughly confused and somewhat morbid after going through dozens of reviews and opinions, including the less popular ones.

I have some experience with Sennheiser HD205. Don't laugh. At home i have a 2.1 Logitech speaker system i bought 11 years ago for about 100€. I live in an apartment building so investing into speakers is out of the question.

To all of them, the reviewers, everything they review sounds great. Be it 200€ item, 1500€ item or even 7500€ AB1266 Phi TC. How can so many headphones of different price ranges all sound so fantastic? That should not be possible. Even Sennheiser says, on their website, that HD205 provide excellent sound quality.

The headphones i looked into so far [random order]:

Austrian Audio HI-X65	allegedly too analytical for listening
HiFiMan Edition XS	allegedly ALL HiFiMan products have bad build quality, but sound great
HiFiMan Sundara 2022	allegedly an orgasmic sound experience, that is if you win the quality control lottery
Neumann NDH 30	allegedly a better alternative to Austrian Audio HI-X65
Denon AH-D5200	allegedly better than more expensive AH-D7200 version and very decent for a closed back
Sennheiser HD650	allegedly good sound quality but old make and fragile plastic build quality
Beyerdynamic Amiron Home	allegedly badly tuned along with all the rest of the Beyerdynamic products, but good build quality and comfort
Meze 99 Classics	some say superb, others say garbage
Focal Elegia	some say excellent, others call them fecal as in fecal matter
Monolith M1070	allegedly have questionable bendable build quality, but sound great
Dan Clark Audio AEON 2 open/closed	not many opinions on this one, aside from typically favorable reviews
Audeze brand	allegedly overall overpriced planars with awful tuning, yet supposedly LCD-5 work well out of the box

But, at the end of the day, to really enjoy them, headphones should be electrostatic?

If someone here has too much time, feel free to bother yourself with ordering the above in terms of sound quality. Starting with the best + add your own choices.

On analytical listening - allegedly you can hear too much, like all the mistakes in the music and such things. Makes me wonder, why is that a headphones problem? Should not the music creators make sure there are no mistakes in their products? One does not simply listen analytically for enjoyment? Must buy headphones which do not produce the sound as recorded but as something else?

How bothersome and/or annoying is the process of headphone equalization?

As for the DAC and Amp combination i looked into:

Sabaj A10d 2022	allegedly performs very good
iFi Go blu	portable, but might not be able to sufficiently power something like Sennheiser HD650
Topping DX3 Pro +	cheaper than but allegedly the same quality as Sabaj A10d 2022 minus balanced XLR outputs
iFi Zen DAC v2	allegedly less good than DX3 and less feature rich, about the same price
Fiio K5 Pro	allegedly the same quality as iFi Zen DAC v2, about the same price
Topping DX5	allegedly only slightly better in quality than DX3, with more features, but at twice the price

Then there are those who say that ESS9018 or the PCM1794 DAC chips, found in DAC devices, are in phones, tablets, onboard sound cards and how DAC is not needed at all, unless you pay a lot of money for it, and how capable amplifiers should be used instead.

Do you understand my confusion yet?

I think, do not know but think, that DX3 Pro + should be able to power any of the above mentioned headphones and that it can do a satisfactory digital to analogue conversion? Or am i mistaken? Does one need a 1k+ stand alone DAC + separate, just as expensive, amplifier?

So, i am looking for headphones, case anyone still wonders what this is all about.

a) Open or closed?
Recommendations for either would be great. If recommended headphones require amplification please also suggest the DAC with Amp unit or just an Amp unit if DAC unit is not required. If recommended headphones must be or should be [difference!] equalized please also specify that.

b) Over-ear or on-ear?
Over ear, so my ear is inside the cup, correct? Better comfort? Don't know what is best.

c) What is my budget?
Up to 800€ for headphones + DAC with Amp

d) What do i intend to do with them?
Listen to all kinds of music and sounds.

e) Other requirements?
Comfortable, reliable/durable. Microphone is not important. I do not play any instruments. I do not record or mix.

At this point i wonder, and this is important, in terms of € [or $ if you prefer, they are almost at parity] at what € value does the quality no longer proportionally increases with the price - diminishing returns, so when the price starts to increase substantially for each gain in quality. I wonder about this for headphones, DAC, amplifiers, pre-amplifiers, etc.

If you believe there is a good reason, a very good reason, as to why i should spend more than 1000€ on headphones alone and why DX3 is just not it...please elaborate. I can wait for a few months, put money aside each month, switch my diet to noodles and water...

I am not in a hurry to buy and i wish for something that will last me for a minimum of 5 and up to 10 years. I have no money or interest to constantly "upgrade" or change the equipment or to have a boutique selection of multiple headphones.

thx in advance for any and all input/responses

 

[HWB3]

I'm new to this as you are. Before I started buying items, I read the Equipment Forum. I got ideas about what others liked and the music that they listened to. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this site. Grab a cup of coffee in the morning or an adult beverage in the evening and sit back and read. Good luck.

 

[msing539]

Of the ones you've noted, I:

Currently Own
D5200
HD650

Owned
Sundara
Meze 99 Classics
LCD-X 2021

Heard
Hifiman XS
Dan Clark Audio AEON 2 Open/Closed
Audeze LCD 2, 3, 4Z, 5

It's somewhat true what they say about Hifiman's build quality, but their customer service is great if you purchase directly from them or an authorized dealer. If you did a side by side on the XS vs. Sundara, the XS will show more detail and the Sundara will sound veiled in comparison.

The Meze 99 Classics are fun if you like bass, but they're somewhat bloated and the top end resolution isn't there. If you're a basshead and value that above anything else, then the 99 Classics are a good bet. They're lightweight and comfortable, and easy to drive off of anything.

Regarding DCA, I'm not a fan of their tuning. Every DCA sounds a little... boring... in my opinion.

The Audeze headphones are generally resolving, fast, and have good bass impact. The LCD-5 is not tuned like any other Audeze and, personal preference, but they're my least favorite. With some EQ, the LCD-X can be a solid option, though if it were my only headphone, I'd probably want something lighter in weight. A Carbon Fiber headband will help with that to some extent, but it's not a night and day difference for what the headband costs new.

And finally, the HD650 and Denon D5200... for an open headphone, the HD650 is a solid inexpensive option (especially if you have an OTL tube amp). Without an OTL, it's just ok... I would take the Hifiman XS over the HD650 personally. For a closed back, the D5200 does just about everything well... comfort, bass, detail. There's enough there where I could be content if that was my only headphone and I hadn't heard others. But you would probably have to baby it to last 10 years, at least with a headband cover and taking care of the pads. The HD650, in contrast, will probably last longer than anything else in your setup. And because there are so many of them, they're easy to find parts for... the entire thing can be disassembled by hand. So don't let the plastic build throw you on them, they're made to last a LONG time.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

I am looking into buying HiFi headphones, my first, and i must say i am thoroughly confused and somewhat morbid after going through dozens of reviews and opinions, including the less popular ones.

As soon as I see a "review" site with links to scamazon, I close the tab. That helps eliminate any influence from shill sites which are actually 99,9 bar percent of all "reviews" since scamazon has succeeded in polluting the net beyond recognition.

I didn't see if you described what kind of music you prefer and what kind of sound signature (analytical i.e. hear every detail for better or worse, warm i.e. a more pleasant sound at the expense of some detail- but these are rough generalizations).

But, at the end of the day, to really enjoy them, headphones should be electrostatic?

No. Planars and dynamics are good/great for most music.

Some random replies:

I would not recommend any of the DACs you mentioned. If you play digital music, you need a DAC, this is not a matter of opinion. The DAC is the component that converts Digital to Analog.

I'd recommend the HD 600 over the HD 650, but either way, build quality as far as toughness goes is not in question. They're plastic and are not artisan headphones from the physical build, but the HD 600 gets timbre better than most headphones until you spend many times the price. Parts are usually available (lately maybe not but that's an aberration) unlike many headphones.

Closed headphones are a compromise; they can sometimes provide apparently better bass but at the expense of soundstage and with other issues. If you need to avoid disturbing other people, get closed. If not, get open.

Over ear is more comfortable for everybody although some tiny number of on ear models (not for hifi though) might break that rule.

d) What do i intend to do with them?
Listen to all kinds of music and sounds.

Unless you narrow that down you're going to have to compromise quite a lot.

At this point i wonder, and this is important, in terms of € [or $ if you prefer, they are almost at parity] at what € value does the quality no longer proportionally increases with the price - diminishing returns, so when the price starts to increase substantially for each gain in quality. I wonder about this for headphones, DAC, amplifiers, pre-amplifiers, etc.

If we only knew. Unfortunately the best you can do is probably by manufacturer. By component I don't think it's possible.

I am not in a hurry to buy and i wish for something that will last me for a minimum of 5 and up to 10 years. I have no money or interest to constantly "upgrade" or change the equipment or to have a boutique selection of multiple headphones.

I would say Audeze LCD-2C (that means "Classic" rather than closed) and RME ADI-2 DAC FS as a pair that will play most things well and everything enjoyably and will not be obsolete in 5 years. But, that's probably 1000 euros more than your budget. On the other hand I see a clear pattern of people buying entry level gear that gets 5 stars on dubious review sites, growing out of it quickly, buying the next piece of junk up the line, same thing, repeated a few times until they lost quite a lot of money and still have a subpar setup. The LCD-2C is pretty easily driven but you still need a good DAC to get the most out of it. Hence, this pair as a very safe recommendation that I know works extremely well and covers most musical genres very well and does nothing badly.

It's somewhat true what they say about Hifiman's build quality, but their customer service is great if you purchase directly from them or an authorized dealer. If you did a side by side on the XS vs. Sundara, the XS will show more detail and the Sundara will sound veiled in comparison.

That is not true in Europe to my knowledge and is probably not the fault of Hifiman. It's risky in most places to have to send anything back to China, you're likely to pay tax on the full value when it gets returned to you.

. for an open headphone, the HD650 is a solid inexpensive option (especially if you have an OTL tube amp). Without an OTL, it's just ok... I would take the Hifiman XS over the HD650 personally. For a closed back, the D5200 does just about everything well... comfort, bass, detail. There's enough there where I could be content if that was my only headphone and I hadn't heard others. But you would probably have to baby it to last 10 years, at least with a headband cover and taking care of the pads. The HD650, in contrast, will probably last longer than anything else in your setup. And because there are so many of them, they're easy to find parts for... the entire thing can be disassembled by hand. So don't let the plastic build throw you on them, they're made to last a LONG time.

If you have a good solid state amp the HD 600/650/6XX are great, but that can cost more money than most people want to spend until they realize what's going on.

Anyway, I have a Valhalla 2 and Lyr 2 listed here, for sale in EU, so

 

[etroze86]

Hhhhmmmm starting out and no sound signature to go off of. So hear me out pick up a pair of koss kph30i and either the topping you mentioned or something like ifi hip DAC, xduoo 05 bal as these will give you enough power to explore different headphones later.
The kph30i is a fantastic headphone for $30 and competes with the meze 99s easily. Once you figure out what you enjoy for sound then jump up into higher tier gear.
I personally own 4 different Audeze because I enjoy the sound characteristics without EQ.
The XS are good headphones but don't fit everyone's head very well. I had to bend the headband for better clamp.
I own the 99s and they are good but like I said the $30 kph30i keep up easily.
I have Sennheiser 6XX and the are a good starter set but I'd get the 58X as they are easier to drive and less expensive while sounding 85% the same.
DCA have great build and comfort but they lack dynamics. To me they are just boring.
Hopefully this helps your journey a bit.

 

[Stevko]

What about beyer DT 900 x and topping dx3+?
You will be happy

 

[HBen]

Seems like you're in need for some basic headphone/gear advice so here I go

- Don't care much about "reviews" and all that ... it's mostly marketing and highly subjective. Buying headphones based on reviews or even other people's advice mostly leads to dissappointment (in my personal experience).

- What you hear in the end depends a lot on the whole chain: recording -> DAC -> Amplifier -> Headphones -> your ears ... what you need to do is to find a combination of all of this that fits YOUR preferences, YOUR music style and YOUR hearing. Therefore the only way to buy headphones is to listen to headphones and amps/dacs etc. yourself and test as much different gear as possible to get an understanding of what is possible and to find a middle ground of what you want and what you can afford.

- Buying used can be a good way to find the right gear since you can buy and resell at a similar price if you buy it cheap enough (often around 50% of the new price if it's in good condition) ^^

- You need to find out yourself how much money a certain sound quality is worth to you. Diminishing returns are very real and kick in very early but at the same time some may find the last few percent of sound quality make or break the enjoyment one gets out of headphone gear so spending (much) more might be very well worth it.

I hope this advice pushes you in the right direction and gives you some ease from your confusion.

Best of luck and enjoyment on your headphone journey!

 

[tantadruj]

Currently Own
D5200
HD650

How would you compare HD650/XS with Dan Clark Audio AEON 2 Open and D5200 with AEON 2 Closed?

Unless you narrow that down you're going to have to compromise quite a lot.

I am weird and do not have a favorite music genre or maybe i am just unable to recognize it. I like a bit of everything. Depending on my mood and such. I do often find myself liking some soundtracks, but is that even a type?

Buying used can be a good way to find the right gear

I am afraid of buying used items, unless i personally know the seller. You would not believe what people do with the stuff before they peddle it to you.

Valhalla 2 and Lyr 2 listed here

Tube amplifiers serve the high impedance headphones, not recommended for low impendence ones? Lyr 2 is ok when used with something called LISST tubes? Too much specifics for me, complicates things.

RME ADI-2 DAC FS

Allegedly rather good at what it does. But not cheap. Will make a note of it anyway.

 

[msing539]

How would you compare HD650/XS with Dan Clark Audio AEON 2 Open and D5200 with AEON 2 Closed?

While I've heard the DCA Aeon 2, not long enough to give a worthwhile comment--just an impression that I didn't enjoy them much, although they are some of the most comfortable headphones I've worn.

The HD650 and D5200 have smoother sound characteristics to them. The Hifiman XS comes across as more open and detailed than both of those.

In terms of low end, the D5200 is on top for me, then the HD650, then the XS. If you want more low end on the HD650, the ZMF pads add it.

 

[Monsterzero]

My .02

I would suggest that you stick with well known brands, so that when your first setup disappoints you, and it most likely will, you won't have too much trouble selling it.

Do not expect to buy once and be 100% satisfied with what you're hearing. This hobby is a lot about the journey, the discovery of the way music can sound, and more importantly, understanding your own personal preferences, which can and will change as your journey progresses.

On analytical listening - allegedly you can hear too much, like all the mistakes in the music and such things. Makes me wonder, why is that a headphones problem? Should not the music creators make sure there are no mistakes in their products? One does not simply listen analytically for enjoyment?

I find some headphones to be too revealing, which causes me to be unable to enjoy the music as a whole, as i'm too busy focusing on a particular instrument.
I prefer a headphone that allows me to analyze, as opposed to forcing me to analyze. You might be the opposite, and thats fine.

How can so many headphones of different price ranges all sound so fantastic?

Speaking as a reviewer myself, I no longer review gear that I personally do not like. I used to do "bad" reviews, but its not fun to listen for days or weeks to something that I do not enjoy. Further it isnt enjoyable to get on camera and totally destroy a product, especially when the product is made my a small company or an individual. It's one thing to speak negatively about a headphone thats put out by a big corpration, like Sennheiser or Beyerdynamic, its something else entirely to trash a single person's life long dream.

The Law of Diminishing Returns in this hobby is strong. The difference between a $300.00 headphone and a $1000.00 might be quite small. The 1k headphone might have slightly better sub bass extension or slightly wider staging than the three hundred dollar headphone, so when a 300.00 headphone gets you to about 90-95% of what the $1k headphone sounds like, most people will say it's fantastic. Is it as fantastic as the 1k headphone? No,it might not be, but for the price it is.

 

[msing539]

Something else to consider--the Meze 109 Pro. It's not released yet and we're unsure of pricing, though it should be sub $1000 USD.

I heard it briefly for 45 minutes and it's on my list to own when it becomes available. It's not tuned like the 99--detailed but still a nice low end punch.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

I am weird and do not have a favorite music genre or maybe i am just unable to recognize it. I like a bit of everything. Depending on my mood and such. I do often find myself liking some soundtracks, but is that even a type?

That's why I recommended what I recommended. It will be a very good setup that is not going out of style and won't become obsolete any time soon, and will sound great with a very wide range of music, movies, etc.

Tube amplifiers serve the high impedance headphones, not recommended for low impendence ones? Lyr 2 is ok when used with something called LISST tubes? Too much specifics for me, complicates things.

OTL tube amplifiers, in general, are good for high impedance dynamics. The Valhalla 2 has an unusual design and can drive other headphones better than expected according to my headfi pal @jonathan c whose judgement I have come to trust.

The Lyr 2 is a hybrid, it has a lot of grunt and is a good match for planars. It is a good match for LCD-2C, 3, etc.

Edited: You know what, the Hifiman HE400i 2020 is for me a more enjoyable headphone than the LCD-2C at around 1/5th of the price. The LCD-2C looks and feels like you got your money's worth. The Hifiman build looks like it was worth a hundred euros of the 150 euros you paid for it and the headstrap needs some extra padding. But, they sound great and are not hard to drive.

 

[tantadruj]

the Hifiman HE400i 2020 is for me a more enjoyable headphone than the LCD-2C

The HD650 and D5200 have smoother sound characteristics to them. The Hifiman XS comes across as more open and detailed than both of those.

HiFiMan store is selling HE6se V2 for $609 instead of $1800 due to "open box". Theoretically - how worried should i be if i order something like that? Or is it just a marketing trick? Open box = someone did not like them and returned them? $1800 headphone with a $1200 discount. This raises questions, something does not feel right, or am i over complicating?

so that when your first setup disappoints you, and it most likely will

The difference between a $300.00 headphone and a $1000.00 might be quite small. The 1k headphone might have slightly better sub bass extension or slightly wider staging than the three hundred dollar headphone, so when a 300.00 headphone gets you to about 90-95% of what the $1k headphone sounds like

This is interesting.

I prefer a headphone that allows me to analyze, as opposed to forcing me

An example of such a headphone?

 

[msing539]

HiFiMan store is selling HE6se V2 for $609 instead of $1800 due to "open box". Theoretically - how worried should i be if i order something like that? Or is it just a marketing trick? Open box = someone did not like them and returned them? $1800 headphone with a $1200 discount. This raises questions, something does not feel right, or am i over complicating?

In the US, we can buy it brand new from Adorama for $599 and sometimes less. I wouldn't recommend this headphone unless you start researching proper amps to drive it.

 

[Monsterzero]

HiFiMan store is selling HE6se V2 for $609 instead of $1800 due to "open box"

You will want to avoid the HE6, at least to start . It is without question one of the hardest headphones on the planet to drive, so hard that most amps cannot drive it correctly.

If further down the road you are ready to buy a mega amp and HE6, that would be okay, as when correctly driven, the HE6 is a fantastic sounding headphone. Just be aware of QC issues.

The HE6 is one of those rare headphones that require you to build a system around it, and a lot of buyers do not realize or understand this, hence why there are so many " open-box " pieces in the wild. When under driven it sounds like utter garbage.

An example of a such a headphone?

Beyerdynamic T1.1 or Sennhesier HD800 vs ZMF Verite open /closed or ZMF Atrium.

All 4 are TOTL headphones. The T1 and HD800 spreads everything out so wide and so clearly that I found it impossible to keep the song in a coherent singular piece. It was like listening to multiple tracks at once, and not being able to see the forest thru the trees.

ZMFs keep everything very musical while still maintaining excellent transparency and never becoming so analytical that the singular coherency is lost.

EDIT: Something else I should add to this is that owning an overly analytical headphone can often times render many of your favorite songs entirely unlistenable. If a song is older and has thin mastering and production, or not a lot of $ was put into production, or some modern music that is "brickwalled", an overly analytical headphone will pick up these flaws and magnify them, thus essentially ruining the song or album.

A good example of this is a lot of Led Zeppelin's stuff doesnt have the best production, even the modern remasterings arent the greatest when heard from one of these music scalpels.

Red Hot Chili Peppers and Metallica are two examples of prioritizing loudness above all else. A brickwalled song or album might sound ok on the radio in your car, but when you hear this stuff thru a good headphone setup, both bands are almost instant-skip material.