Warning click bait: I hate to EQ
Feb 8, 2023 at 2:28 AM Post #16 of 110
I've been using that and enjoy it more than peace APO in a few ways even
i also feel like equalizerAPO isnt the "best" solution sound quality wise, tho for me windows itself is flawed too
convenient wise there is probably nothing that comes close to equalizerAPO but i feel like in general audio quality on Windows is kinda meh
unfortunaly i dont know of any good solution beside equalizerAPO but i recently switched back to fedora/linux and enjoy pipewire+easyeffects way more, tho its hard to say where sound quality benefits come from but easyeffects sounds transparent in comparison to equalizerAPO

probably one solution (tho it wasnt a good solution for me since it doesnt offer system-wide EQ) is using Audirvana, its probably one of the best solutions for windows for listening to music only (it offers EQ and VST plugin support)
 
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Feb 8, 2023 at 2:44 AM Post #17 of 110
i also feel like equalizerAPO isnt the "best" solution sound quality wise, tho for me windows itself is flawed too
convenient wise there is probably nothing that comes close to equalizerAPO but i feel like in general audio quality on Windows is kinda meh
unfortunaly i dont know of any good solution beside equalizerAPO but i recently switched back to fedora/linux and enjoy pipewire+easyeffects way more, tho its hard to say where sound quality benefits come from but easyeffects sounds transparent in comparison to equalizerAPO

probably one solution (tho it wasnt a good solution for me since it doesnt offer system-wide EQ) is using Audirvana, its probably one of the best solutions for windows for listening to music only (it offers EQ and VST plugin support)
I do plan on shifting over to a linux distro for my windows desktop when not gaming (rare enough as it is lol) and i'm leaning strongly towards mint. I'd like to get audio sorted out on that front; what would you recc for EQ and flac/mp3 playback? I would prefer system wide EQ though.
 
Feb 8, 2023 at 3:06 AM Post #18 of 110
I do plan on shifting over to a linux distro for my windows desktop when not gaming (rare enough as it is lol) and i'm leaning strongly towards mint. I'd like to get audio sorted out on that front; what would you recc for EQ and flac/mp3 playback? I would prefer system wide EQ though.
i havent done too much digging, but i strongly suggest watching out that your distro uses pipewire instead of pulseaudio (tho most distros do by now i think)
you can raise resampling quality in the config files and set pipewire to use dynamic samplerate, so resampling isnt done unless needed (eg using two applications at the same time with different sampelrates)
i think there are actually a few options for systemwide eq, easyeffects (the pipewire equivalant of pulseeffects), jamesdsp, camilladsp are probably the most used ones
easyeffects was very easy to setup (just install it, and make sure you go into the settings and enable autostart) and it works fine, so i just use this, the UI is arguably not the best but it works, specially for easy EQ (32 band parametic EQ) and i also use crossfeed which is implemented very easy to use

i can write up a little tutorial how i setup pipewire config files if needed

i was looking around for the best distro and for me fedora was the winner, its a good (probably the best) comprimise between uptodate packages and stability i think and its done by a big company which is a plus for me

arch uses most recent but somewhat unstable packages
debian uses very stable but outofdate packages
and i think ubuntu falls somewhere in between but also here packages are older than fedora and kernels dont get updates between releases, fedora does

tho, i should also say im not a linux pro but i got it working fine for me so far :)
i actually switched back to windows a while ago just for games but will now try to either get them running on fedora or dualboot to windows (but i also recently dont play much games anymore) every other multimedia needs can linux do just fine imo unless you need some specific programs like photoshop or something like this

regarding flac playback, i cant recommend a program (yet) since i mainly use my raspberry pi streamer with moode for this but i think there are a few options
i also recommend using firefox, chromium has some strange issue where it just runs on 48khz samplerate where firefox switches the sampelrate and imo chromium sounds a little worse (maybe/probably because of the resampling)
 
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Feb 10, 2023 at 9:47 PM Post #19 of 110
One more (very important imo) thing i just figured out...
i was always sceptical about how much phase alteration of IIR filters do matter, and i also didnt figured out a "easy" way to make true FIR filters for CamillaDSP, so i was still using IIR on my speaker setup
yesterday i played around with my heaphone correction to get as close as possible to my speaker setup (studio montiors, room corrected/room treated) stay tuned, i will probably make a thread here)
and i saw in the easyeffects "equalizer" app a "IIR" setting, which can be set to "FIR" with no hassle at all! this made a huge difference in getting closer to my speakers (currently i use on my speaker just a light house curve, no correction since i remanage my room at the moment)

so if you go with easyeffects, make sure to try the FIR setting, i think it specially helps with "soundstage" it gets bigger/more consistent, seperation gets more "airy"
for crossfeed i can recommend jmeier, 700hz, 7-9db, i think this makes headphone sound more closer to speakers too, tho im still trying around here
:)
 
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Feb 10, 2023 at 10:00 PM Post #20 of 110
Phase was more of an issue with analog equalizers than digital ones. Generally, you get as close as you can with room treatment, then go to EQ to fine tune. That way, you aren't making gross adjustments.
 
Feb 10, 2023 at 11:26 PM Post #21 of 110
Phase was more of an issue with analog equalizers than digital ones. Generally, you get as close as you can with room treatment, then go to EQ to fine tune. That way, you aren't making gross adjustments.
digital IIR filter alter the phase too, as CamillaDSP shows in graphs, tho you are right its probably hard to hear a +10° phase, tho just for the sake of it i will go with FIR from now to not worry about this since it was audible for me on headphones (DT880 BE 250ohm corrected to harman target and "hourse curve" applied), and specially EasyEffects makes it really easy to implement FIR by just pressing a button, so why not try it :) tho i wished more software would offer easy FIR like this

and yes, thats what im doing right now, improving room treatment to hopefully get lighter EQ (and specially better bassresponse) and good room treatment sounds better than an overused EQ, even if you measure flat at the listening position
 
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Jun 7, 2023 at 7:06 AM Post #22 of 110
EQ is applied subtractively to avoid clipping, so it is going to have a lower volume level than without. You just turn the volume up a little bit.
Alternatively, decrease the overall EQ gain setting by the same amount of Db of the highest increased frequency (e.g. max gain is 5db at XYHx, then the gain setting goes to -5db or so). Not the ideal solution but a practical workaround given that is it more intuitive to add (than subtract) when playing with an EQ...
 
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Jun 7, 2023 at 12:44 PM Post #23 of 110
for crossfeed i can recommend jmeier, 700hz, 7-9db, i think this makes headphone sound more closer to speakers too, tho im still trying around here
:)
The "natural" crossfeed level depends on the spatiality of the music in question. Crossfeed simulates in a very simplified manner the direct sound crosstalk in loudspeaker listening with speaker set at about ±30° angle. According to the science of human spatial hearing the Interaural Intensity Difference (IID) at frequency f given in Hz can be roughly calculated with the equation:

IID ≈ 1.0 + ( f / 1000 )^0.8 * sin 𝜃​

For sound coming from a distant source at 𝜃 = 30° = 𝜋/6 rads angle the natural Interaural Level Difference ILD = 20*log10(IID) is roughly:

25 Hz: 0.2 dB
50 Hz: 0.4 dB
100 Hz: 0.6 dB
200 Hz: 1.1 dB
400 Hz: 1.7 dB
800 Hz: 2.6 dB
1600 Hz: 3.9 dB
3150 Hz: 5.5 dB
6300 Hz: 7.3 dB
12500 Hz: 9.3 dB

For sound sources closer to the listener there is an additional level differerence due to the distance from the sound source to the ears not being almost the same in comparison to the distance of the listener and the sound source. A fly one inch from the left ear is about 10 times further from the right ear (around the head) and that has a massive effect on ILD! This additional ILD is approximately:

8 meters / ∼27 ft: 0.2 dB
4 meters / ∼13 ft: 0.5 dB
2 meters / ∼7 ft: 0.9 dB
1 meters / ∼3 ft: 1.7 dB
0.5 meters / ∼2 ft: 3.1 dB
0.25 meters / ∼1 ft: 5.2 dB
0.1 meters / 4 inches: 9.1 dB
0.05 meters / 2 inches: 12.2 dB
At the other ear: 19.9 dB

So, for speakers at 30° and 2 meters away from the listener the crosstalk level at 100 Hz is about 0.6 dB + 0.9 dB = 1.5 dB as an example. Of course this analyse is only for the direct sound while the reflections, reverberation and room modes are ignored. The real ILD can be a little bit higher than this and at room mode frequencies possibly much higher depending the position of head, but room modes are undesired problems that harm the fidelity at low frequencies: We are lucky to not suffer from them with headphones! As a rule of thumb, at bass frequencies (below 200 Hz) 1-3 dB of ILD is the "natural" target window. Larger ILD at bass than that indicate sound sources near head which isn't very natural or desirable in music context, but if you want your music "slamming" at your ears then keep ILD large!

Anyway, stereo recordings in general do not contain infinite channel separation: If we set our target at 100 Hz to ILD_target = 2 dB and the channel separation in the recording at 100 Hz is ILD_recording = 8 dB, we need to reduce it by 6 dB. The math isn't very easy at this point, but this is how the calculations go:

We need to calculate the "channel difference ratio" D for the stereo recording. D is the ratio of the side channel level S to the sum of both side and mid channels: D = S / (S+M). For mono (left = right) sound D = 0 and when the right and left channels are completely inverted versions of each other (out of phase), D = 1. For headphone listening recordings should have about D = 0.1 at bass and have D raise to about 0.5 or a bit more at treble. The problem is that when mixing music for loudspeakers, the desired D values are higher than that, especially below 800 Hz, because acoustic crosstalk is taken into account. Channel correlation btw is simply 1 - 2*D. Anyway, in this example case we have:


D = (1-10^(-ILD_recording/20)) / 2 = (1-10^(-8/20)) / 2 ≈ 0.301

We also need the "channel difference ratio" target value T:


T = (1-10^(-ILD_target/20)) / 2 = (1-10^(-2/20)) / 2 ≈ 0.103

From D and T we can calculate the parameter 𝛽 ( = crossfeed level on linear scale):


𝛽 = (D - T) / (D + T - 2 * D * T) = (0.301 - 0.103) / (0.301 + 0.103 - 2 * 0.301 * 0.103) ≈ 0.579

Finally the needed crossfeed level on dB scale is calculated with:


Crossfeed level = 20*log10 𝛽 = 20*log10 (0.579) ≈ -4.75 dB

=> about -5 dB is "close enough."

The closer the recording is the target, the less there is need to crossfeed while hard panned "ping pongy" recording require hard crossfeed. One can learn to hear how much crossfeed is needed (how excessive the spatiality is).

____________________________________
Before someone comes and writes about how this mathematical model and analyse oversimplifies spatial hearing, I totally know it! Since default crossfeed is also an oversimplification of "loudspeaker spatiality simulation", this math works well with it. It's on the same level of simplification. Many people enjoy basic crossfeed which illustrates how even oversimplified solutions can sometimes work nicely for some people. Not all, but some such as myself...
 
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Jun 7, 2023 at 12:51 PM Post #24 of 110
Finally the needed crossfeed level on dB scale is calculated with:


Crossfeed level = 20*log10 𝛽 = 20*log10 (0.579) ≈ -4.75 dB

=> about -5 dB is "close enough."
The closer the recording is the target, the less there is need to crossfeed while hard panned "ping pongy" recording require hard crossfeed. One can learn to hear how much crossfeed is needed (how excessive the spatiality is).
im kinda switching between 5-7db once i try to tweak crossfeed in a while again

pure headphone user might see this differently but what i truely want from crossfeed is the same spatiality as speakers, tho this might vary with different headphones too
well spatiality is the wrong word... you cant get this "airy" soundstage from speakers with headphones anyway... but atleast crossfeed helps to some degree to eliminate the hard left/right pinpointing
 
Jun 7, 2023 at 12:54 PM Post #25 of 110
Hi all -

I'm relatively new here but I've built a nice little collection of stuff and I want to share what I guess would be considered a semi-controversial observation (I think?):

I hate to EQ.

Every time I apply the EQ presets that are custom-tailored for certain headphones or IEMs, the overall sound experience sounds thinner/less warm/more metallic. The decibel level clearly goes down so maybe some of the difference is attributable to that? On Mac I'm using SoundSource and Qudelix 5K on portable.

I'm not posting this here to pick a fight with EQ-lovers. I'm just curious if I'm doing something wrong?

P.S. I will say there is one case where EQ really felt like it was needed: UM Mest MKII. It was a muddled mess unless I put EQ on. The rest of my stuff (u12t and Arya) felt like they were better without EQ.

Any other insights/tricks I'm missing?

Rich
AGREED!
 
Jun 7, 2023 at 2:03 PM Post #26 of 110
im kinda switching between 5-7db once i try to tweak crossfeed in a while again
That's the "medium" crossfeed level. If you use only one setting, about -6 dB or so is the one to choose.

pure headphone user might see this differently but what i truely want from crossfeed is the same spatiality as speakers, tho this might vary with different headphones too
well spatiality is the wrong word... you cant get this "airy" soundstage from speakers with headphones anyway... but atleast crossfeed helps to some degree to eliminate the hard left/right pinpointing
Crossfeed can shape the channel separation closer to what it is whit speakers, but the characteristics of the soundstage are pretty different as you state. Personally I experience "miniature" soundstage with crossfeed and the quality/size of that miniature soundstage depends on how good/natural spatiality the recording has. Well-recorded organ playing in a church for example can give really nice result. :)
 
Jun 7, 2023 at 2:09 PM Post #27 of 110
Personally I experience "miniature" soundstage with crossfeed and the quality/size of that miniature soundstage depends on how good/natural spatiality the recording has. Well-recorded organ playing in a church for example can give really nice result. :)
yes miniature soundstage is a good wording too

what really is noticeable with crossfeed is that it actually gives you a "phantom-middle" like speakers do, but instead of infront of you the phantom point is inside your head
 
Jun 7, 2023 at 2:22 PM Post #28 of 110
what really is noticeable with crossfeed is that it actually gives you a "phantom-middle" like speakers do, but instead of infront of you the phantom point is inside your head
Anything in the mix presented in mono should do that, regardless of crossfeed. Vocals are often mixed mono and appear inside your skull with headphones.
 
Jun 7, 2023 at 3:43 PM Post #30 of 110
No, they put it there so the vocals are fixed in the middle right in front of you. They want you to focus on the singer. Putting them at the sides would sound weird like Bohemian Rhapsody.
 

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