[kerelybonto]

Tuberoller, I believe we've discussed this before. I'll summarize and say that the opinion of military men should be the first considered when determining how to wage war and the last considered when deciding whether to wage war (especially when it comes to the American military).

kerely

 

[markl]

Why do we spend the majority of our budget/taxes on defense and armaments if we never use them? Why would you sign up for the U.S. armed forces if you aren't willing to go to war? If you signed up to get all the benefits but never had any intention of going into battle, I condemn you to war. That's a fitting "punishment".

I say we have the chance to literally "liberate" a lot of captive nations. We should go for it. If you're in the military and you're against going into combat, you made a stupid career choice and you have no right to object or complain.

Mark

 

[elipsis]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl I say we have the chance to literally "liberate" a lot of captive nations

Would you argue that this is being done for the appropriate reasons, especially when:

1) Captive nations exist all over the world, often with the complicity of the Western countries?

2) A war could result in grave repercussions for both the Middle East and the West?

Or do you feel that while the justification may be weak, the result justifies the action?

Not flamebait, a serious question.

 

[00940]

I am from a familly of officers. I've been taught the price of the blood.

To be true I was accepted two years ago at the Belgian School for Officers. (An instructor showed me during the training I could be more useful to my country by serving in another way. I followed his advice and left. I think now he was fully right even it was hard at this time. But I'm still in contact.) Before I went there I had a long time of reflexion on the fact I could be killed, that it was even a part of my job.

I am not speaking of war with a smile. I don't like this idea. But it happens. Or it could happen. In our world the government has sometimes to make this choice to send some of his citizens to the death. As we are in democracy, it is our duty to speak about these issues.

BTW, the evolution of the topic was pretty realistic-cynical. That's how I analyze a situation. Not because I think I like it but because it offers me the best results.

If you want to go deeper in the goal of this war : Do you know the definition of a right war ? They were formalized by Thomas d'Aquinas, based on the Aristote ideas.
- the decision of the war must come from the legitimated authority.
- there should be a right reason (a real threat)
- the war must be launched with the intention to proportionnate the actions to the results.

The fact is that those questions are far more difficult to solve.

 

[kerelybonto]

Just war theory is intriguing, but ultimately not very practical because it condemns any war that would be truly necessary to fight -- at least from an American perspective. I think the Vatican has a good website on just war theory if anyone's interested.

kerely

 

[00940]

Quote:

Originally posted by kerelybonto I'd also be happy to share a short essay I wrote on the subject that fairly concisely and completely states my position on subject, which I arrived at after a few months of study and research.

I missed it

really interested, perhaps by PM if you don't want to accused of thread crapping.

Btw, the more interesting discussions i had on these kind of issues are always in the "no subject" forum of a board with a completly different subject. specialized boards are so pathetic most of the time, spammed by mindless activists.

 

[Tuberoller]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Why do we spend the majority of our budget/taxes on defense and armaments if we never use them? Why would you sign up for the U.S. armed forces if you aren't willing to go to war? If you signed up to get all the benefits but never had any intention of going into battle, I condemn you to war. That's a fitting "punishment". I say we have the chance to literally "liberate" a lot of captive nations. We should go for it. If you're in the military and you're against going into combat, you made a stupid career choice and you have no right to object or complain. Mark

That is just way over the top man.Just to think,people like me join the Military to serve our country to protect people like you.You sound like a real Patriot.Those are some of the most rediculous comments I have yet heard on this forum.

I think if the Draft were reinstated all the people who wage war from the comfort of their home sitting in front of a PC would be singing a different tune.The prospect of actually having to act when the threat is real is different from sitting at home punching a keyboard and disrespecting the people who defend your right to do so.

Markl,I think that you should apologize for the remarks you have made here.We can disagree,but those statements are extremely disrespectful.Yeah, you have a right to free speech,but understand that this right has been and is being defended daily by the very people who you insult with your words.I am very glad that people such as yourself don't actually have the power or the voice to condemn a soldier to war.There is a God.

 

[elipsis]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberoller Yeah, you have a right to free speech,but understand that this right has been and is being defended daily by the very people who you insult with your words.

Which, of course, means that they are beyond reproach and cannot be questioned.

 

[Tuberoller]

Quote:

Originally posted by elipsis Which, of course, means that they are beyond reproach and cannot be questioned.

C'mon.you know in your heart that is not what I'm saying.Do you at all deny that this statement is true?please don't take my words out of context here.I in no way would ever suggest that I or any other Vet or Soldier has an opinion that is beyond reproach or doubt,but failure to condemn Markl's remarks is as good as agreeing with them,which would really be tragic.

 

[kelly]

kerelybonto
Thanks again for the explanations. I agree that there is likely already some amount of action being taken in Iraq but I am curious about what tactical considerations you're referring to. Are you just talking about the physical movement of troops to the region?

tuberoller
I'm not sure what was meant by "kelly's flamebait" but I didn't suggest that we should or should not go to war and I do consider this topic a bit more serious than audio components. My post was in response to the latest news events and an attempt to understand them, only.

 

[eric343]

Hrm. Tuberoller - you do have a point, we're all limited by our viewpoints. On the other hand, you're limited by your viewpoint too.

While I definitely agree that war should be a worst-case / last-resort solution, you need to make sure you're willing to use it if it's necessary. (or is this what you meant about Vietnam Syndrome?)

Should we go to war now? Probably not. Should we go to war period? Maybe.

And I also half-agree that anyone advocating war should have to fight; the thing is, do you REALLY want all the armchair generals who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with a hand grenade fighting for our country?

(just joking...)

 

[Tuberoller]

Quote:

Originally posted by eric343 Hrm. Tuberoller - you do have a point, we're all limited by our viewpoints. On the other hand, you're limited by your viewpoint too. While I definitely agree that war should be a worst-case / last-resort solution, you need to make sure you're willing to use it if it's necessary. (or is this what you meant about Vietnam Syndrome?) Should we go to war now? Probably not. Should we go to war period? Maybe. And I also half-agree that anyone advocating war should have fight; the thing is, do you REALLY want all the armchair generals who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with a hand grenade fighting for our country? (just joking...)

Again Eric,You exhibit wisdom beyond your years.I agree that my viewpoint is limited and acknowledge that those limitations do not allow to me to understand the views of some others.I hope and pray daily that guys like you or my son or my two daughters are never faced with war.

 

[ServinginEcuador]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberoller I hope and pray daily that guys like you or my son or my two daughters are never faced with war.

After 7 months in the Gulf, I pray te same thing. People see and do things that you would never wish your worst enemy would see or do!!! I am not a pacifist or anything, but it war should be a last resort whenever possible. I for one am glad that people like Tuberoller and many other people have served this country!! We enjoy many things here that the rest of the world only dreams of having. Imagine having conversations about how much money we spend on headphones and related equipment in Uganda where thousands of people from starvation every year!! Not dumping on this thread, just trying to put things into a little perspective.


And I for one am glad that tensions have reduced here in this thread and we can get back to helping each other and having intelligent, informed, and somewhat heated discussions about headphones, amps, and whatever else comes up now and again.

 

[00940]

Quote:

Originally posted by eric343 And I also half-agree that anyone advocating war should have fight

"should have TO fight" seems better to my eyes.

 

[eric343]

009: Edited. Thanks for the correction

Tuberoller: Thanks, I needed an ego boost

Seriously, though, I appreciate your hopes/prayers. I've played enough computer games of the twitch'n'shoot variety to realize that war is only fun on screen.

Ecuador: It's amazing what environment/upbringing can do, eh? In the neighborhood that I'm fortunate (if that's the right word; while there's lots of money the people are rather shallow, greedy, and generally unadmirable. At least I wasn't born here) to live in, the 'poor' are those that live in house that only have carports. With any luck, I'll graduate from college and go on to a nice job, and be able to afford my own house. I'd wager that given the same start and chances, your average Ugandan would do just as well.

You might want to check out an orginization called World Neighbors; it's a pseudo-charity that instead of simply throwing money at the problem, teaches literacy and skills to third-world people, among other things.