[mrarroyo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by panda /img/forum/go_quote.gif that's too bad they sold out. the wadia lineage has been quite good and now they're tainting it by mixing. at least it's just an option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinp6301 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wonder why they didnt design a headphone amp themselves. I'm pretty sure wadia could design a pretty good headphone amp

Quote:

Originally Posted by panda /img/forum/go_quote.gif for starters i dont think rsa amps sound all that good, plus they have different signatures, why wouldnt they design their own circuit? i'm assuming they're trying to bait head-fiers who are rsa fanboys to go out and buy a wadia dac now with this marketing ploy.

Could Wadia have designed their own headphone amp? Sure but it appears they chose not to.

I am a big fan of Ray's amps. The fact that now I have the option of adding one to the Wadia DAC is to me a big advantage, although I would love if it was the HR-2 type. So overall I am excited about this possibility.

 

[auee]

This product looks like a winner, particularly if Wadia does not go for off the shelf digital to analog conversion. There decoding technology is really an achievement.

 

[MASantos]

I also don't understand why Wadia didn't design their own HP amp section.

I don't know what kind of circuitry Ray will implement in this product, but if it is opamp based as his portable amps and some of his home amps, 500$ seems too much, since there's no fancy enclosure orbig R&D costs(IF he uses one of his current designs). Opamps are cheap(read afordable) parts.

 

[dmashta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MASantos /img/forum/go_quote.gif I also don't understand why Wadia didn't design their own HP amp section. I don't know what kind of circuitry Ray will implement in this product, but if it is opamp based as his portable amps and some of his home amps, 500$ seems too much, since there's no fancy enclosure orbig R&D costs(IF he uses one of his current designs). Opamps are cheap(read afordable) parts.

they could design their own but then it wouldn't be $1500 anymore. and even if they simply reused one of ray's existing design, you don't suppose they would charge equivalently now that it comes with the wadia logo, would you?

as with most dac+amp units, the amp section is usually a toss-in just to sweeten the deal.

 

[frozenice]

I have no idea what motivates Wadia anymore but the bigger question to me is why would Ray allow a substandard product to use his name and sully his reputation.

My feeling is unless Ray is happy with the quality of the product he wouldn't sign his name on it. For that reason alone I think it will be the product to beat in it's price range when it comes out. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Gilles De Rais]

Why don't Wadia build they own headphone amp? Because its not their area of expertise that's why. Look at their product range - its all cdps, transports and DACs, not one amplifier product. So they've done what any sensible company does - they've recognised their lack of expertise in an area and outsourced that part of the product to a company which specializes in that particular area. Best of both worlds rather than expending significant and probably unnecessary R&D for the company and slowing down the product release. People really should look at a company's product range before they venture an opinion.....

regards,

Giles

 

[MASantos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmashta /img/forum/go_quote.gif they could design their own but then it wouldn't be $1500 anymore. and even if they simply reused one of ray's existing design, you don't suppose they would charge equivalently now that it comes with the wadia logo, would you? as with most dac+amp units, the amp section is usually a toss-in just to sweeten the deal.

It could still be 1500. It would depend on how much they would want to spend on R&D and component cost. They are charging 500 for the HP amp section. I would supose that at least half that sum is going to Ray. Another thought. This will probably be selling in hundreds around the world, so the amp section will probably not be hand built by Ray as in his more expensive products. Probably wadia builds the HP amp boards themselves using a design they bought from Ray and also his agreement for using his name. That is technical business stuff I won't get into.

I don't agree with you on your last statement. Many DAC+amp offerings have great amps, take a look at the Benchmark DAC 1 or headroom's offerings(more an amp with add-on dac though).

Quote:

Originally Posted by frozenice /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have no idea what motivates Wadia anymore but the bigger question to me is why would Ray allow a substandard product to use his name and sully his reputation. My feeling is unless Ray is happy with the quality of the product he wouldn't sign his name on it. For that reason alone I think it will be the product to beat in it's price range when it comes out. Again, just my opinion.

That's quite a statement there about being the product to beat. Again take a look at the benchmark(which many consider the best at 1k) or headrooms desktop offerings. Though that might be actually true ( and even that is subjective as everyone has different tastes) saying it will be the product to beat just because it is a Wadia and RSA is a bit adventurous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilles De Rais /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why don't Wadia build they own headphone amp? Because its not their area of expertise that's why. Look at their product range - its all cdps, transports and DACs, not one amplifier product. So they've done what any sensible company does - they've recognised their lack of expertise in an area and outsourced that part of the product to a company which specializes in that particular area. Best of both worlds rather than expending significant and probably unnecessary R&D for the company and slowing down the product release. People really should look at a company's product range before they venture an opinion..... regards, Giles

Giles, I know the Wadia product line and many here do to. Even though not being their area of expertise, they could easily have developed such a product as they certainly have people to do it. I agree with you that outsourcing is a good thing and saves money and time. Wadia actually has experience and expertise in amplifier design as their products incorporate amplifiers in some section and they even have some proprietary designs. Being your 1st post you should be more gentle and not say stuff like your last sentence... a bit rude...

 

[Gilles De Rais]

Hi MASantos,

Just a quick comment or two. One it was my first post under this name (lost my previous couple of log-ons after coming back from holidays) so I'm certainly not a newbie, having been a head-fier since 2005. On the second matter of being rude, I am sorry but there are far too many people on this and other fora who whinge and moan about product x without even bothering to do basic research, which surely isn't hard given they're on a computer anyway. Sure express an opinion but make it a sensible and informed one. I just get cranky with idiots and lazy bloggers...

Oh and the ability to use Wadias as an "amp", by which I assume you mean as a device which can plug straight into a power amp without the use of a pre-amp, comes about more due to the ability of a Wadia CDP/DAC to vary the output of the DAC component than through the use of a discrete amplifier module. This is at least what the Wadia paper on their "Direct Connect" technology implies. Hey, I must have researched that bit of info!

Either way I'm looking forward to the 121 and will almost certainly buy one for my office system.

regards,

Giles

 

[dmashta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilles De Rais /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why don't Wadia build they own headphone amp? Because its not their area of expertise that's why. Look at their product range - its all cdps, transports and DACs, not one amplifier product. So they've done what any sensible company does - they've recognised their lack of expertise in an area and outsourced that part of the product to a company which specializes in that particular area. Best of both worlds rather than expending significant and probably unnecessary R&D for the company and slowing down the product release. People really should look at a company's product range before they venture an opinion..... regards, Giles

despite this not being their specialty, i doubt the R&D expenditure needed to build a 'good enough' amp is much of a factor. and as MASantos said, they certainly don't lack the people. remember, this is their affordable, entry-level line, they certainly aren't aiming for 'high-end'. it would be a different story if they are trying to release a flagship amp. but considering this and the itransport are targeted to the ipod audiophile (who grew up on a healthy dose of portable amps), it only makes sense to team up with a reputable name in that market, and hey the Ray Samuels brand is as good as any.


Quote:

Originally Posted by MASantos /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... I don't agree with you on your last statement. Many DAC+amp offerings have great amps, take a look at the Benchmark DAC 1 or headroom's offerings(more an amp with add-on dac though). ...

no i don't disagree. i said most but i was by no way saying dac1 HP out is shabby at all. it is a very competent amp although i still prefer a predator to it (but that's just my preference).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilles De Rais /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi MASantos, Just a quick comment or two. One it was my first post under this name (lost my previous couple of log-ons after coming back from holidays) so I'm certainly not a newbie, having been a head-fier since 2005. On the second matter of being rude, I am sorry but there are far too many people on this and other fora who whinge and moan about product x without even bothering to do basic research, which surely isn't hard given they're on a computer anyway. Sure express an opinion but make it a sensible and informed one. I just get cranky with idiots and lazy bloggers...

well, newbie or headphoneus supremus, it is still rather rude and arrogant implying someone's an idiot. no doubt you're very knowledgeable in some areas but less so in others. we're all here to learn and benefit from each others' expertise...um much like wadia and ray, no? but hey, if i can have you do the research and save me the trouble, you can call me an idiot all day long.

 

[Gilles De Rais]

Hi dmashta,

I'd like to stress that I was not having a go at you, nor trying to insult you. Whilst my langauge may be somewhat brusque, I am trying to raise the level of informed discussion. I guess, however, from the responses that that seems to have lead to "shooting the messenger"! Perhaps a change in tone may help...

I guess that one of the things that I've been trying to get across in this discussion is that when you look at the Wadia range, outside of the iTransport, it starts at some $6k for the 581SE. This immediately indicates that it is at this end where their focus is: high-end digital replay. It also would seem to indicate that when it comes to resources and R &D they dedicate towards the new DAC, they won't be high in absolute terms. Hence the outsourcing. Clearly Wadia sees a need to support the surprising success of the iTransport, but not at a cost of diverting resources from their core line.

Irrespective of the sucess of the iTransport, Wadia is not going to reposition itself as a higher volume, lower cost company. Reputations such as Wadia's once lost are not easily reclaimed.

Hope this mollifies some of the tension!!

regards,

Giles

 

[dmashta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilles De Rais /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi dmashta, I'd like to stress that I was not having a go at you, nor trying to insult you. Whilst my langauge may be somewhat brusque, I am trying to raise the level of informed discussion. I guess, however, from the responses that that seems to have lead to "shooting the messenger"! Perhaps a change in tone may help... I guess that one of the things that I've been trying to get across in this discussion is that when you look at the Wadia range, outside of the iTransport, it starts at some $6k for the 581SE. This immediately indicates that it is at this end where their focus is: high-end digital replay. It also would seem to indicate that when it comes to resources and R &D they dedicate towards the new DAC, they won't be high in absolute terms. Hence the outsourcing. Clearly Wadia sees a need to support the surprising success of the iTransport, but not at a cost of diverting resources from their core line. Irrespective of the sucess of the iTransport, Wadia is not going to reposition itself as a higher volume, lower cost company. Reputations such as Wadia's once lost are not easily reclaimed. Hope this mollifies some of the tension!! regards, Giles

giles,

oh no, i didn't think you were calling me an idiot, at least it didn't appear so based on our discussion. as you can see from my earlier posts, i never once questioned why wadia didn't design their own amp. in fact i specifically said it was a good thing they didn't otherwise i suspect we would be seeing a different price tag. likewise, i saw this as a 'low-end' offering (outside of their core range) to stack with the itransport and so there was never any intention for a 'wadia-level' amp. so it makes sense to outsource and probably tap into the cross-branding while they are at it.

so it seemed to me we were on the same page and i never thought that was directed at me. but either way, thanks for clearing it up.

 

[drc73rp]

At $500 additional for the optional amp section, it really doesn't make sense to me to get the DAC+Amp combo. With integration you lose flexibility. Unless the level of the amp included is of higher value when purchased separately like the HR-2, there's not much to gain from it when the DAC only version is also available. At $999, the DAC only 121 looks very promising though. Hopefully its as good or well designed as any of the higher model Wadia stuff that's just way beyond the reach of most of us.

 

[Champ04]

I took a close look at this thing while at CES and thought it a great idea.

The 121 is, for all intents and purposes, the old 300 series from Wadia. It uses the same level of digimaster software. (digimaster 3.x)

For any long time Wadia enthusiats you will remember that the 300 series of cd players were their "entry level" stuff. These cdp used the "16X" sampling algorithm. Now that seems to be in this little gem. So I would expect it to sound very similar to those pieces.

The stand alone cdp such as the 581 and 781 use the "32X" algorithm. Much like the old 800 series stuff. (digimaster 2.x)
And their big arse stand alone DACs (they call them decoding computers) use the "64X" algorithm. (digimaster 1.x)

So the way I see it. What was the 301 is now basically the 121. What was the 831 is now basically the 581/781. And what was the 27 is now the new 931/922. All with improvements in technology as they go, etc etc.
Basically what they did was spread the price points over a much larger scope. It used to be ~$3k to ~$15k. Now its $1k to $40k.

I think its a good idea. It certainly satisfies the hardcore audiophile at the upper end. Plus they use their unique technology to bring HiFi to the masses. Brilliant if you ask me.

 

[pjw241142]

Is there any sort of ETA of when this is going to hit the market?

 

[Morph201]

Sorry but I have to add my .02 cents to this. After reading all of the whiny, 'why are they using Ray's design'....'Why is it $500 more for an RSA integrated HP amp section'..

Look, if you have an issue with the price or the fact that they chose to 'sell out' to Ray Samuels, then don't buy the goddman thing! I never seen so many b*tch posts in one setting before. For chrissakes, just don't buy it! Simple!

/rant over