W2002 bass or no baas?
Nov 23, 2002 at 9:10 PM Post #31 of 39
The fact that headphones have much smaller membranes than speakers and principally move much less air has to do with the circumstance that the sound is generated straightly in front of the ears. Thus the main part of the generated sound reaches the ears, and very few is dispersed outwards, in extremis with canalphones, where all generated sound reaches the eardrum. It's obvious that in such a case there's very few air to be moved to achieve the same loudness as with circumaural headphones or speakers.

There's a direct dependency of loudness and moved air. A certain loudness level is equivalent to a certain amount of moved air in the ear canal – referring to a certain frequency. But there are different degrees of efficiency. With some designs there's a lot of «wasted» air movement – possibly impacting great areas of the outer ear and the head with vibrations, from which the impression or even sensation of visceral impact arises.

But why don't the Staxes provide impact? They have all preconditions for this: large diaphragm, large air chamber and large impacting area around the ears. There must be a different factor. Maybe an additional one. I suppose it's the moving mass, consisting primarily of voice coil and membrane. Just like it's actually incorrect to speak of the moon orbiting the earth, there's no simple moving of the membrane, neither with speakers nor with headphones. Earth and moon are orbiting each other around a common center of gravity – and so do sound transducers: membrane and frame/housing move relatively to each other. The much lighter membrane moves much more than the chassis, but the greater the «moving mass» (especially in the case of a large diaphragm), the greater the impact sound from the earcups or the earpads respectively, which can be felt on our skin accordingly.

It's obvious that electrostatics with their foil diaphragms of very low moving mass produce very few impact sound with their housings. Anyway, to say that's the reason for their «thin» bass even isn't half the truth. For there's also a real lack of audible impact. Where does it come from? In the case of my (self-constructed) electrostatics there's no early bass roll-off. Quite the opposite: they have a very strong low bass, much stronger than the one from my HD 600, it's even a tad too much... And I'm quite sure that the Staxes go very deep, too, according to their measurements. So: what's the reason?

The thin foil membranes have virtually no acoustic resistance; the air pressure they produce inside the earcup can easily equalize itself through the diaphragm – kind of permanent battle for hegemony between signal command and air pressure. This phenomenon is less pronounced with dynamic transducers due to their stiffer, less sound permeable and heavier membranes which give more acoustic resistance. The latter could be the reason for the more substantial reproduction especially of low frequencies compared to the «airy», feathery sound from foil diaphragms which extends also to the bass.

These are nothing but assumptions, but some with rhyme and reason, I guess. I don't think there's any established scientific explanation for such different sonic results with nearly identically measuring sound transducers. The same applies to amplifiers, btw, which more or less are measured absolutely identical and sound that different anyway.

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JaZZ
 
Nov 23, 2002 at 11:45 PM Post #32 of 39
Tomcat and Jazz,
Excellent, thoughtful posts...

All I really can say is that after spending a bit of time listening to the W2002, I noticed it handled bass much differently than other phones. I attribute this to the DADS system. To me, it felt like added pressure and impact totally separate from actual frequency response. I still don't feel they go any lower than the CD3K or the HD600. I think I once likened it to those vibrating discs that go under your seat that they sell for HT applications to help you "feel" the impact of the bass. They don't produce any sound, only vibration, and that's what I feel DADS is doing.

To me, it felt like extra air being pushed against my ears to mimic the impact of Marshall stacks at a rock show. I liked the effect, it was fun and enjoyable and an oddly pleasing sensation.

Thumbs up for DADS!

Mark
 
Nov 24, 2002 at 6:14 PM Post #33 of 39
Quote:

Have you ever listened to Stax SR-404, SR-007, or Etymotic ER-4S?


kelly,

I have listened to the Staxes numerous times, but I don't know the Etymotics.

To my ears, the Stax sound is somewhat goulish and ghostly, there is some of the spirit of the music left, without a doubt, it sounds very fast and clean and clear, even elegant at times (especially when listening to the SR-007 driven by the SRM-007t tube amp), but there is no body to the instruments, no heft and visceral impact. To me, Stax electrostats provide less of a musical experience than an intellectual one. Their closed studio monitor 4070 has had slightly more body (but less elegance and smoothness than the SR-007) when driven by the SRM-007t but it's still a far cry from the reproduction of lower frequncies good dynamic headphones are capable of.

To my ears, there is a steep roll-off starting in the lower mids, at about 200 Hz or not too far below that. I just don't perceive appropriate response in the bass at all. But as I tried to explain in my first post, there is probably more to our ability to perceive a natural tone which has its fundamental frequency in the bass region than simple bass extension. And there's more to our ability to discriminate instrumental timbres than a flat frequency response. But in terms of simple bass extension, Stax earspeakers are just plain awful. JaZZ has mentioned it: the thin electrostatic membrane seems too thin and not stiff enough to handle the increasing acoustic impedance at low frequencies and to efficiently transform electrical energy into kinetic energy. That's why there are no electrostatic woofers. BTW, JaZZ, I guess any air vibration (provided it isn't sub or ultrasonic) can be perceived as sound. And if the driver produces vibrations it shouldn't, this could simply be audible as distortion, mostly harmonic distortion, I guess. If electrical energy isn't transformed into air movement, then it is mostly dissipated as heat.

Headroom has some comments about their Stax frequency response measurements on their page titled The problems with headphone testing where they try to explain their "ten best headphones" idea - the basis for their normalized frequency response graphs (which I don't think are useful, but that's a different topic). Quote:

We knew that we might run into a headphone that measured oddly even though it sounded amazing. Such a phenomenon is a very common topic of discussion in high-end audio; at times you find a product that is pleasing to listen to, but has far from ideal technical performance. In the list above we found that the Stax Omega was the odd man out. This headphone is a world class performer in terms of the positive experience reported by listeners, but when we measured it we found an unusual artifact in the bass: a very large upward spike and then a rapid drop. Though these headphones are frequently criticized for not having enough bass, we certainly don’t perceive them to sound like the curve looks. We decided not to use the Stax Omega data in the standard on grounds of it being out of the ordinary, even though they certainly belong on the list of best-of-the-best headphones.


Well, I don't like the Stax sound. To my ears, it just isn't musical. It might be analytically stimulating, but, frankly, I wonder whether reading the score wouldn't have a similar effect.
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Nov 24, 2002 at 6:42 PM Post #34 of 39
Quote:

Originally posted by JaZZ


But why don't the Staxes provide impact? They have all preconditions for this: large diaphragm, large air chamber and large impacting area around the ears. There must be a different factor. Maybe an additional one. I suppose it's the moving mass, consisting primarily of voice coil and membrane. Just like it's actually incorrect to speak of the moon orbiting the earth, there's no simple moving of the membrane, neither with speakers nor with headphones. Earth and moon are orbiting each other around a common center of gravity – and so do sound transducers: membrane and frame/housing move relatively to each other. The much lighter membrane moves much more than the chassis, but the greater the «moving mass» (especially in the case of a large diaphragm), the greater the impact sound from the earcups or the earpads respectively, which can be felt on our skin accordingly.


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JaZZ


one isue with electrostatics (and all other headphones) is that one elment/transducer has to generate all the frequencies from 5hz to 40khz.

in many electrostatic speakers, they've realized this problem, and have added a dynamic subwoofer to produce the bass sound, because you nedd a large transducer to produce good bass, and a smaller one to produce good treble.

Also, to produce any bass, the transducer has to move a much larger distance back and forth than it needs to procude treble, and space is a limiting factor in electrostatics, and in headphones...

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here, or if my assumptions are correct, so please take it with a pinch of salt...
 
Nov 24, 2002 at 6:43 PM Post #35 of 39
Tomcat
I can't help but be amused by the difference between your perception of the Omega II and Jatinder's. Jatinder decided that the Stax were not for him (compared to Orpheus and R10) due to an overemphasis on the bass.

I wonder if he might be willing to post in this thread.
 
Nov 24, 2002 at 9:47 PM Post #36 of 39
Quote:

Originally posted by Tomcat
BTW, JaZZ, I guess any air vibration (provided it isn't sub or ultrasonic) can be perceived as sound. And if the driver produces vibrations it shouldn't, this could simply be audible as distortion, mostly harmonic distortion, I guess.


That's very true. What are you referring this «objection» (?) to?
Quote:

To my ears, there is a steep roll-off starting in the lower mids, at about 200 Hz or not too far below that. I just don't perceive appropriate response in the bass at all.


A review in the German «Audio» magazine from February 1988 comprised the frequency response of the Lambda and the Signature. The former's frequency response shows a dominating and very flat area from 20 to 1600 Hz, without any roll-off at 20 Hz (± 0 dB referring to 1 kHz)! But I agree: the bass never ever sounded that way.

I can only adduce the Lambda, Signature, Gamma and Sigma Pro models as references. But according to your characterizations the new models (SR-303, SR404) seem to sound similar, at least in terms of bass. The greatest lack of bass impact I have experienced with the Lambda. Compared to the Sigma, the difference is blatant. The Sigma's bass is overdone, downright booming. And they both use the same drivers. Physically, the difference lies in the air volume within the earcups.

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Btw, the Sigma's spaciousness didn't compensate its lack of transparency, midrange and elegance. My first self-constructed electrostats used the same drivers in a housing which is something between the Sigma and the Lambda – in terms of air volume as in driver array. It thus provided a very pronounced, extended but not exaggerated bass, and due to the concerved midrange transparency, the soundstage was even better, in one word: phenomenal. What I actually want to say: the bass (impact) seems to be dependent on the air volume; and this has possibly to do with the foil membranes' mentioned lack of acoustic resistance.
Quote:

Well, I don't like the Stax sound. To my ears, it just isn't musical. It might be analytically stimulating, but, frankly, I wonder whether reading the score wouldn't have a similar effect.
wink.gif


I don't go that far. For me by all means electrostatics have a certain sensual appeal: the wonderfully esthetic midrange clarity and the absence of muddying resonances... and furthermore, the intellectual dimension is a truly worthwile component of my musical perception. Anyway: my own models don't lack bass at all...
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Quote:

Originally posted by Apollo
One isue with electrostatics (and all other headphones) is that one elment/transducer has to generate all the frequencies from 5hz to 40khz.
in many electrostatic speakers, they've realized this problem, and have added a dynamic subwoofer to produce the bass sound, because you need a large transducer to produce good bass, and a smaller one to produce good treble.
Also, to produce any bass, the transducer has to move a much larger distance back and forth than it needs to procude treble, and space is a limiting factor in electrostatics, and in headphones...


Headphones and speakers are'nt exactly comparable in this regard. The membrane excursion is an issue in speakers, where a larger distance between the electrode grids results in reduced efficiency. That seems not to be a problem with headphones. And the main issue of (large) fullrange electrostatics is by nature the increasing sound focussing towards high frequencies. With headphones, that absolutely doesn't matter. So fullrange transducers actually are ideal; the same applies to dynamic headphones, btw, where the moving masses of the relatively small membrane surfaces needed for an adequate low-frequency reproduction don't restrict the reproduction of high frequencies.

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JaZZ
 
Nov 25, 2002 at 7:22 AM Post #37 of 39
Quote:

Originally posted by Flasken
Nik, everytime I read your signature I feel like killing someone.

IT's NOT FAIR!!

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I don't understand you...
I just wrote my equipment's components exactely like every one...
Yes, it's not fair because I'm not selling nothing!



Best!
Nicola
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Jun 5, 2005 at 3:27 PM Post #38 of 39
Nik

Most times this type of statment is simply a backhanded compliment, at least that is the way I would take it.

Great components, great sound, I am glad for all those with this level of equipment share their experiences on this board. Thanks, this makes it something more to look forward toward.

Slwiser
 
Jun 5, 2005 at 8:12 PM Post #39 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by halcyon
Could this remarkable difference in the perception of amount of bass on W2002 be contributed to the amplifier differences? If so, what difference in amp attributes could explain this?


Yes, it's called tube rolling producing an amplifer that doesn't have a flat frequency response...
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