[Hirsch]

Dave1 came by last night, and we listened to several amps/headphones. The main object was to compare the Headroom Cosmic to the Grado HPA-1 (Cosmic has deeper bass extension and slam, but HPA-1 gets tonality better, particularly in upper bass. I couldn’t hear a difference elsewhere, however, I was focused mainly on the low end, which may be the weakest performance area of the Grado. These amps sound very close.) But that isn’t what this post is about.

We later adjourned to listen to the vinyl system. VPI Scout setup, Dynavector 10x Gold L, Blackhead transformer, Cary LPP-1 phono stage, EAR HP4, Grado RS-1 and SR-325 headphones (to get sound in the same family to two cans simultaneously). Homegrown Audio Silver Lace/VD Power 3 through the phono section, VD Nite interconnects/power cords connected to HP4.

At this point, we had a bright idea. Just how much better was the system above compared to a modern mp3 player? So, we set it up. RioRiot connected to Meta42 using Radio Shack mini-mini, IIRC. The album selected was Bob Dylan’s “Blood on the Tracks” which Dave1 had on the RioRiot, and which I had on vinyl. We decided to handicap the vinyl system by using the SR-325 with it, while the mp3 setup got the RS-1.

OK, the vinyl setup sounded better to me. That wasn’t the issue. The mp3 system was also getting something very right with the music. On a numeric scale, I’d have to say that the inexpensive mp3 setup was getting about 90% of the performance of the vinyl rig. In theory, the vinyl rig should have made the mp3 setup sound like an AM radio. Nope. Nowhere close to that. Switching headphones (RS-1 to HP4, SR-325 to Meta42) widened the gap… but not as much as it could have (should have?). The mp3 setup actually had better “slam” than the analog rig. The analog rig got the fine detail, and fuller body to the music.

The session was both reassuring to me, and disturbing. Reassuring, in that it showed that a “killer” rig is not necessary to get good sound/good music. The difference between those rigs was incremental, not orders of magnitude. The music came through on both. Both systems accomplished what I consider to be the primary goal of any audio system: They got out of the way and let the music through. The omissions of the mp3 setup were primarily subtractive…but whatever was removed did not interfere with the music.

The disturbing part should be obvious. Have I blown my system setup? Or can mp3 really be good enough to play in the same ballpark as a good analog rig? One of the most common pieces of advice given on Head-Fi is to “upgrade your source”. Do I need to do that…again?

Rather than throw out rationalizations and explanations (roll tubes, poorly recorded LP, yada yada yada), I’ll leave it here. Two experienced listeners (Dave1 used to be a recording engineer) felt that the performance of an mp3 system was comparable to a very good analog rig with good tubed electronics. No night and day revelations. The analog rig was better, but the increment in performance was trivial relative to the difference in price between the two rigs. Both rigs were delivering very satisfying musical performance.

Hmmmm……

 

[Tuberoller]

Hirsch,

You have some work to do buddy.You obviously have some set-up or system matching concerns.

When I first read the Cary/Blackhead combo I worried that you would have some shortcomings in detail and low frequency performance.Your analog combo should absolutely cream the MP3 rig in the mid range.I'd play with the set-up a bit starting with the phono amp and moving to the transformer.It's not that any of these components is faulty or sounds bad,but I do wonder about the combo.

 

[jamont]

MP3 quality can vary quite a bit, depending on how they were made. If there are no errors in the ripping (using EAC for example) and a high bitrate is used for the encoding, the sound quality can be very good.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberoller When I first read the Cary/Blackhead combo I worried that you would have some shortcomings in detail and low frequency performance.Your analog combo should absolutely cream the MP3 rig in the mid range.I'd play with the set-up a bit starting with the phono amp and moving to the transformer.It's not that any of these components is faulty or sounds bad,but I do wonder about the combo.

Fred,

I'm aware of the Blackhead/Cary shortcomings, but I didn't want to put rationalizations in my post. The mp3 player was making good music.

Singlepower Audio is building a phono stage for me that should resolve issues with detail and low end response. I want that transformer out of my signal path.

Once I've gotten the phono stage settled, we'll see about a rematch

 

[gbeard]

That's very interesting Hirsch.

No answers, just more questions...

I have a few observations which may or may not be correct or even relevant.

I know you haven't had your Scout long--is it fully broken in? This may be a minor thing, but sometimes its not...

Does your best CD rig measure up with the same results?

It is truly hard to believe that an mp3 player of any quality can match a well recorded record on a rig like the VPI, even my lowly mmf-7 can sometimes sound better than my Cary 303-200. But I wonder if this is where the differences between speakers and headphones really manifest themselves? Perhaps the additional nuances of great vinyl--reach out and touch imaging, and huge soundstage, are not quite as evident through headphones?

I will say that it has been proven time and time again that a decent inexpensive system--properly set up--can get 90% of what an expensive hi-end system can do. That said, it is that last 10%--5%--1%--that (in most cases) gives the illusion of realness to reproduced music. It also costs one hell-of-a-lot of money!

Just like you, at times I have trouble figuring out which camp to sleep in: The "I enjoy listening to music and still have money in my pocket " or, the "I'm broke, but I can hear a nat's ass sliding down the guitar string" camp. Please note that the "illusion of realness" doesn't necessarily correlate to the amount of enjoyment received, hence the condundrum...

Damn Audiophilia Nervosa anyway...

Cheers,
Gary

 

[Dave1]

I was very impressed with Hirsch's setup. I can fully understand the skepticism involved people are expressing about this test. Hirsch and I had identical feelings after the initial listening, the vinal setup sounded really great, which we fully expected, but the mp3s sounded much better than they had any right to.

We listened to an entire side of the Blood on the Tracks album, so this was not a quicky decision. The truth is that they both sounded great.

I would give a slight edge to the vinyl in richness and maybe warmth. I found that it was lacking in impact compared to the mp3. The mp3 had more drive in the lower mids and to my ears, had more excitement and life.

I think that the inference that there is something wrong with Hirsch's setup is unfair and a little insulting to Hirsch. I have never seen anyone who sweats the details more than Hirsch. I happen to think he's nuts about some of the lengths he goes to in pursuit of audio perfection, but if anyone here thinks that he does no know what he is doing, I beg to differ.

Was the vinyl rig better. Yes. Was it very close. Yes.

I know that this whole topic and the belief that good sound comes in many forms is blasphemy, but hearing is believing.

 

[JMedeiros]

<runs to bedroom to try his Archos Jukebox with the nOrh/K1000s>

 

[gbeard]

I certainly was not infering anything of the sort. I am certain Hirsch's system is tweaked to the max. That said, there must be some reason--and perhaps the rio-riot is equal to the task--why you had this result.

I lean on Hirsch heavily when it comes to advice about anything headphone. But it is certainly hard for me to believe that I would have the same result in my speaker system. I can tell a huge difference between my Sony R70 MD player and any of my other sources. This is not to say the MD is not enjoyable through my speakers, it is just not in the same league as my TT or CDP. That is the reason I wonder if the differences in presentation (note; I did not say quality) between hp's and speakers may have an impact on your findings.

Just a question that begs to be asked...

gb

 

[Tuberoller]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave1 I was very impressed with Hirsch's setup. I can fully understand the skepticism involved people are expressing about this test. Hirsch and I had identical feelings after the initial listening, the vinal setup sounded really great, which we fully expected, but the mp3s sounded much better than they had any right to. We listened to an entire side of the Blood on the Tracks album, so this was not a quicky decision. The truth is that they both sounded great. I would give a slight edge to the vinyl in richness and maybe warmth. I found that it was lacking in impact compared to the mp3. The mp3 had more drive in the lower mids and to my ears, had more excitement and life. I think that the inference that there is something wrong with Hirsch's setup is unfair and a little insulting to Hirsch. I have never seen anyone who sweats the details more than Hirsch. I happen to think he's nuts about some of the lengths he goes to in pursuit of audio perfection, but if anyone here thinks that he does no know what he is doing, I beg to differ. Was the vinyl rig better. Yes. Was it very close. Yes. I know that this whole topic and the belief that good sound comes in many forms is blasphemy, but hearing is believing.

Dave,

We are usually more cordial with one another around here.I don't see anything in this thread that could be considered insulting.Hirsch understands what we are all talking about but I think you may somehow lack the understanding or patience.

I know Hirsch's combo well and have used much of the gear he is using.The specific combo of the Cary phono amp with the transformer and cartridge may not have the best synergy.There are variables so numerous that to metion them all here would take hours.There could be problems with loading,impedance,gain or a many other variables.Hirsch understands that these things don't always fall into to place right away.He started this thread to offer his thoughts on the set-ups.He himself speculated that he may have synergy or compatability problems.Please lighten up and learn a few things from Hirsch.

 

[Tim D]

I thought the 10% is what it was all about. Hate to bring the two words up, but its about diminishing returns.

As far as a portable rig being able to sound so good, I have no doubts since I can totally enjoy my portable rigs as well. In fact I recently sold an Mp3 flash player that uses only 1 AAA battery and I loaded Chesky's Audio demonstration CD(well mp3 now) onto it, and I can definitely tell you that thing had no right to sound as good as it did.

You can get a lot of portable gear together and end up with something that probably does pale in comparison...but if you look carefully you can definitely end up with some killer portable gear. It's not so much about the cost IMO as it is the search.

 

[drewski]

It's tough to understand what 90% of the sound means to each person. If I think about it, I think I get 90% sound quality from ety's, supermini, and minidisc player compared to my Scout and the setup it's on. Also, part of the attraction with analog is the laid back, warm, smooth characteristics that it presents... it's also a naturalness that can't be found on digital. The fact that there's more slam from the RioRiot isn't really an issue for most analog lovers and I'm not too surprised that there'd be a close result when there was an a/b comparison (nor am I insulted as a Scout owner). Also, this test was an a/b test with one album... I'm not familiar with this album (I know, I must live under a rock)

, but comparing other titles/music genre may have changed things as well.

So Hirsh, first it was the Supermini and the K-1000's, now the RioRiot vs. the Scout- Let me know what's next before you kill the resale value of more of my equipment!!!

- (especially if it's something like the Apex DVD player out guns the Arcam FMJ CD23)

Glad you guys had fun doing this.

 

[Dave1]

Fred,

My appologies. It came off much harsher than intended.

The alchemy is something that seems more like voodoo than engineering.

 

[Hirsch]

I think there's an issue in here that may well bear further exploration. Regardless of any issues with the analog system, which is still a work in progress (aren't they all

), the mp3 system was producing good music. There have been instances where some very high-end setups haven't (try reading any reviews of The Abso!ute Sound's setup at a show in NY several months back, where their "ultimate system" received almost universal scorn).

IMO one of the real challenges in audio is putting a system together correctly. To some degree, there are some levels that can only be reached by putting in the $$$ and getting the component matching right. However, if the components are matched properly, there are some budget systems that don't have an "audiophile stamp of approval" that nonetheless make real music. IMO these low-budget music makers can offer real value to an entry-level audiophile (and many not-so-entry-level audiophiles), if we can find out what they are. These systems are getting something right that some high cost systems don't. What is it that these setups are doing? How do we find it, except empiricism?

 

[gbeard]

Quote:

IMO one of the real challenges in audio is putting a system together correctly. To some degree, there are some levels that can only be reached by putting in the $$$ and getting the component matching right. However, if the components are matched properly, there are some budget systems that don't have an "audiophile stamp of approval" that nonetheless make real music. IMO these low-budget music makers can offer real value to an entry-level audiophile (and many not-so-entry-level audiophiles), if we can find out what they are. These systems are getting something right that some high cost systems don't. What is it that these setups are doing? How do we find it, except empiricism

So right you are Hirsch. Recently I heard a little system at my buddy-dealer Brian Bowdle's place that consisted of an Audio Note 2x-i (I think that is the model #) driving a little Jolida 301 hybrid integrated powering some $450 Audio Note bookshelf speakers. Good cables were used and the speaks were on stands. The sound was warm, inviting and wonderful. I could live with it for a long time if I couldn't afford what I own. The whole thing retails for less than a Twinhead II, and good cans!

I have found that Synergy is everything and one of my "great truths of audio" is that once you have synergy, you are doomed to ruin it, and painfully try to recapture it. It's just the price we pay to keep looking for the next "best" thing.

Regarding the RioRiot, I have been thinking about buying a HDD player for a portable set up, perhaps I should try one out...

Have a great sunday!
gb

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by gbeard Regarding the RioRiot, I have been thinking about buying a HDD player for a portable set up, perhaps I should try one out...

The only reason I haven't bought one is that SonicBlue went under. I think Denon bought out some of their line, but I have no idea if they'd be supporting the RioRiot or not.