[music_man]

those s9's look really nice. i will see about hearing those. they are a lot less money than the sf's too. i am already thinking the sf's are overpriced and i havent even heard them yet. i'll find out soon.

i don't have a height restriction. proportion comes into consideration when factoring speakers as part of furniture. they would block the light switches on both sides and generally look too big.

i am sure you all know that this is not solely myself making the "furniture" decision. if it was entirely up to me i'd only care about the sound. anyways, i'm not going there.

music_man

 

[music_man]

the s-9's look nice on the web. i have come to learn that one can not judge the cosmetic and structural quality of a product by online photos.

i see their amps. i am not a big fan of that technology. i know that this amp technology can sound pretty good. i think they are pushing the price envelope for that technology however. their topology is intresting. especially the usage of multiple small value capacitors. the size is really appealing.

nuforce are not the actual designers of these speakers. they mention that.

sonus faber is a very high end cabinet/enclosure maker. besides the beauty, the cabinet integrity and rigidity does play a role. i would be very surprised if nuforce offer that type of woodwork. i am intrested to find out.

the nuforce speakers seem like they may be a better value than their amps. i could be entirely wrong about the amps. maybe they are a good value also.

does anyone know in which country the s-9 and nuforce amps are assembled? that is of (some) intrest to me.

a lot of higher end small speakers have been mentioned in this thread. i will listen to some of them. i will start with the guarneri's. the micro utopia be's/rel sub are doing an admirable job. especially given the room issues. i could stop there but you all know how this goes. i may indeed only do worse with better speakers since they tend to get more picky about placement and reflection as the prices increase.

music_man

 

[ooheadsoo]

The s-9 is completely built and finished in the US. By a handful of guys in Indiana. I dunno about the amps. I can tell you that they sounded mighty fine when paired with the S-9, but for me, that's neither here nor there. The speakers are not made or designed by nuforce, although they had a strong hand in the direction that the engineering would take. They look quite good in person, but the finish is very different from a high end violin finish. IMO, a good violin finish should be very fine, enabling the wood to show itself off. The s-9 has a catalyzed clear coat for long life. Very striking, though. The pictures are pretty true to life.

If, as you say, sonus faber is interested in the rigidity of the cabinet, What are they talking about regarding the finish affecting the sound of the speaker? I should hope not. End grain cut bamboo is supposed to be extremely rigid, and if you see the pdf that I linked in an earlier post, and the picture of the internal chambers, you can see that it has bracing inherently built in. The designer, whom I've spoken to says that it's his best imaging speaker, and his theory is that it's because it's actually more rigid than the constrained damping cabinets he normally builds. I built a cabinet using half assed constrained damping and it's quite rigid indeed. No surprise it's commonly used in civil engineering when damping is called for. The s-9 cabinet is significantly more damped to my knuckle test.

 

[chesebert]

Is VR-1 really THE speaker for Grado fans? (Top is my vr1 in-room response and bottom is RS1 FR from headroom)

 

[music_man]

i am really surprised. i was expecting china. they are looking good to me now. no offense to the chinese. i just don't like us companies capitalizing on their labor costs and producing an inferior product designed to make them lots of money. apparently that is not the case at all with nuforce.

who actually makes these speakers? if it is not supposed to be a secret i'd like to know.

the pdf does look like a lot goes into them. i will see if i can hear them. sonus faber is spending a whole lot of time on the finish and that runs the cost way up. i don't really need to pay for how they look. i figured the s-9's were going to be made on a table saw jig and look like slop. i guess i was pretty wrong about that. if the cabinet is good i really don't care how much time they spent making it look pretty.

the sonus is an intresting shape though. some companies are doing shapes like that to deal with reflections and standing waves. if the s-9's are a lot better than the utopia be's i would get them right away. i can sell the utopia's and not be that bad off money wise. the price of the sf's would have to make them just blow me away. which i doubt they can do given their size.
i'll just to have to go listen.

nuforces amps also look promising. i just didn't really want to admit i thought that for some reason. the specs are not amazing. i'll have to hear those also. i like the size of them. they look well built. it all depends on the sound. since the larger companies have a lot more "guts" in their amps they look like more value than the nuforce. i know that does not mean anything. this topology is rather simple. which may be a good thing. i just hope it is not simply a souped up tripath design for $2,500+. from what i have learned about nuforce now i doubt that is the case. the strange thing is onkyo's amp with similar technology is physically 6 times the size of the nuforce. i have no idea why. this type of amp can be made in a nice small package.

i guess the s-9's would be good with the same companies amp. so if i do them, maybe out with the krell also.

music_man

 

[ooheadsoo]

The s-9 speakers are made by SP Technology. They're small and hooked up with nuforce to get more exposure. Nuforce has asian minds behind them (based in the US,) but I honestly don't know where their amps are manufactured. I have read from someone who seems trustworthy (recording engineer who makes great recordings) that the nuforce amps didn't have enough juice for one of SP Tech's 8ohm load speakers when pushed to live levels, keeping in mind that the nuforce amps are optimized for 4ohms, and that the designer of the speaker has happily pushed those speakers to clipping with a 1000w reference amp playing hard rock before the woofer voice coils threatened to melt. He didn't want to switch up to one of SP Tech's more expensive 4ohm speakers because he didn't want to mess with success. The sound was right, he just wanted more juice to get to live levels because the amp was pooping out. I wouldn't consider using a nuforce amp with the s-9 as critical - although, IMO, they didn't do anything wrong when I heard them paired together (the s-9 is a 4ohm speaker.)

As with all things audio, take what i'm saying with a few handfuls of salt. I liked them, my preference is for live sound, and it has to measure well for heaven's sake, as a starting point. I currently use a 8" mtm diy kit I built from SP Tech. They're much too big for my room.

 

[music_man]

i attempted to audition the nuforce's to no avail. mostly due to my own issues.

i should have read the pdf the first time you linked it. it answered all my questions.

the construction of the s-9 is what i really like to see in a wood speaker.
quite similar to the sonus fabers. maybe even better. as it is ply birch and not solid. the sf's are maple which is more stable and dense so it does not really have to be a ply. birch is very soft, hence the ply. still a very good design i think. the front baffle looks especially nice. even the vons are just veneered.
i think the "staved" construction is far superior. not entirely sound wise, but the cabinet is a big part of the speaker as a whole.

as for how well they excute this woodworking i may not soon find out.
doing this type of woodworking takes very high skill. with sonus you know what to expect.

therein lies a problem for me regarding nuforce. i was very taken aback by their distribution channels. they make it, in my opinion rather hard to auditon their speakers. some people may find their private auditions and in home trials etc. very appealing. i do not. i like to be able to walk unanounced into a retail showroom and listen to $200,000 speakers if i so wish. that is just me. i know many people would be pleased with the different channels nuforce uses.

i honestly think this is because they are too small of a company to get into showrooms. the channels that carry nuforce seem also to have other lines that are a step away from "homebrew". again, with sonus i know what i'd be getting. the nuforce may indeed be great but their is still some gamble involved. they are not "inexpensive". warranty etc. comes to mind. sf will be here tomorrow(probably). especially with "staved" cabinet construction. the woods stability to environmental conditions can come into play years down the road. this is one big reason mdf is the common practice in speaker making.

it really is a shame i will not be hearing them soon. maybe i really would have liked them. if i go to indiana in a while i will see if sp can demo them.

as for the sonus: i will be hearing them within days. i have been told though that i personally probably will not like them. they are said to be amazing. for the reasons people like vinyl and tubes. i like my music "clinical" and "steril". completely true to the recording, unadulterated. i am told the sf's tend to make everything seem pretty. like a fine landscape artist. maybe that is their violin heritage.

my focals are razor sharp and very precise. they do not really impart a warm fuzzy flavor to music at all. the sf's i am told do. so i will see at least.

the sf's are a lot better built than most all speakers cabinet wise. of course as i say time and again it is the sound that matters. if they made it out of toilet paper and it sounded great i wouldn't really care. on the other hand if it looks like mona lisa and sounds less than to my liking i will care!

i could really use larger speakers in this room but i do not have room for them. with the rel sub, small speakers of this caliber do put out a large amount of sound thankfully. as you go up a given line in size, the speakers tend to present a larger soundstage and more information. i am strapped with a size limitation in here however. i could be doing a lot worse. so i am not unhappy in the least.

does anyone else have recommendations for reference class speakers within the size constraints i mentioned earlier? that are available at retail outlets.

i am mostly happy with the micro utopia be's but i do not mind looking at other options for myself and to report to all of you here. i do think it is not fair to go to formal auditions(or in home) unless one really plans on buying ahead of time. as a gentleman i simply cannot do that to people. i would maybe buy, but on the other hand i am sort of window shopping at this point. already being rather content with the focals and rel.


music_man

 

[ooheadsoo]

I probably should have mentioned that nuforce is going out of their way to NOT market the S-9 in the US at this moment because their manufacturing capability of it is not yet up to speed. They know where they have to get before they start pushing the speaker. I'm surprised the review in TAS is slated for feb, that's going to generate some serious interest.

My experience with sf speakers also tells me that they're going to be rolled off on the highs like crazy.

I know what you're saying about in home auditions. However, sometimes there are group events, that's how I got to hear the s-9. Looks like you have the luxury to give it some time, anyway. I think by RMAF this year, they'll have the manufacturing gig ramped up...I hope.

The other problem is that I don't really put too much stock in hearing speakers outside of my room. My room is terrible, but I know what it sounds like. It's my #1 limiting factor. It doesn't really even matter how great a speaker sounds in some other room if it can't sound like that in my room. In a strange room, it's impossible to judge how much of what you hear is the setup and how it would sound in your room. I'd also like quick A/B comparison with my own speakers. I'm one of those on this forum who actually believe in the scientific findings that people's detailed aural memory don't last beyond a few seconds. I guess that actually does lead back to in home audition, huh...

On a self congratulatory side note, I'm happy to say that I have an online friend who used to have a big Oris horn system but sold it when he moved to a NY apartment. I suggested the S-9 to him since it had impressed me so much with its huge sound coming from an unexpectedly svelte package, and I know he read the comments of others at that s-9 unveiling I attended. He bought that demo speaker sound unheard and from what he has told me, he seems quite pleased.

 

[music_man]

i heard the mementos. i really liked them, but i don't really know why.

this is of course as always subjective. i, as many people would have went into this already prejudiced by their price to size ratio. i am not afraid of expensive speakers but these are pushing it for their size. so i had it in the back of my head that i must not like them.

about the looks if anyone cares: i can say with certainty that the sound emitted from these little gems will not be for everyone. on the other hand the looks should be somewhat universally coveted. they are art to behold. sf does make a point of stating that this has a huge bearing on their sound as well. i suppose it does. other speakers fall way short of this type of craftsmanship. my wilsons should go hide their heads in the sand. they look ugly to me right now. at least they still sound good(to me at least).

as it turns out, i can hear the s-9's in a showroom(had to search a little harder for a dealer). if someone is coming from oris and likes these they are probably not for me. i am not really looking for live sound out of loudspeakers. especially not live sound pressure levels. what i wish for in all of my playback equipment is to be true to the recording. the mementos are not true to a recording. they make everything sound pretty as i had been told. i never liked this sort of loudspeaker(or headphone) untill i just heard these.

so i don't really know myself at this point what it is i liked so much about the mementos. sort of magical to me(the price, the wood). i'll have to think about it. if i am to seriously consider them i will listen again. they may not do justice to all(or most) of my music in fact. like an idiot of sorts i brought music that i figured would make them shine. really, i should have done the opposite. at this point i am not sure i have an accurate representation of the mementos sound across a broad range of music to begin with. nonetheless, their craftsmanship should stand the test of time(if that matters any).

at the moment i am on the fence. meanwhile my utopias are still keeping me happy. they are completely different than the momentos. i think the huge price difference lies in the cabinetry and not the drivers/electronics. the utopias are still high end speakers i think. it mainly depends on taste at this level(as you all should know). not price so much beyond a certain point i'd guess.

the deal breaker for me is probably going to be the mementos dependance on their integral stands. they are not really bookshelf speakers. they must be thought of as floorstanders. i have been told putting them on a table will not allow them to produce anywhere near the level of sound quality they are capable of. add to this pretty poor room acoustics and they are probably not an option for this room. that is if i even really would like them so much upon further and extended critical listening. i think i will rest on making such a decision for some time at this point.

music_man

 

[ooheadsoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man /img/forum/go_quote.gif as it turns out, i can hear the s-9's in a showroom(had to search a little harder for a dealer). if someone is coming from oris and likes these they are probably not for me. i am not really looking for live sound out of loudspeakers. especially not live sound pressure levels. what i wish for in all of my playback equipment is to be true to the recording. the mementos are not true to a recording. they make everything sound pretty as i had been told. i never liked this sort of loudspeaker(or headphone) untill i just heard these. music_man

I'm not quite sure what you mean there. The s-9 speakers measure flat (criteria #1) in frequency response and power response. They don't play what's not on the recording. And, imho, unless the music was generated by a computer, it was recorded "live." I don't mean live in the sense of 4 guys with long frazzled hair banging on their instruments through the 50x18" woofer array live. Live, as in "facsimily of musicians playing the instruments" live. And, in the end, it should also be able to throw a wall of sound - if it's on the recording. Many speakers simply fall short of this. I don't mean to say that that is all that this speaker is good at doing. I was simply pointing out to you that this is the biggest sound I have ever heard in such a small package - capable of reproducing the sound of live instruments. I haven't actually heard them with any of my typical "wall of sound" test tracks. It did a great solo grand piano and a big band when I heard them. This is not that easy to come by, especially from "bookshelf" size speakers. They are also extraordinarily detailed, which I believe comes from the reduction of strain and distortion from the bottom end of the tweeter by the acoustic loading of the waveguide.

I'm glad you like the sf speakers. They must be something special for that price. I still don't buy a stinking word about their speaker finish affecting the sound spiel. Not one. A speaker cabinet should be doing the exact opposite of what a violin body does. One resonates, the other should do everything within reason not to. To say that their finish affects the sound of the speaker is tantamount to saying that their cabinets are big resonant boxes. Of course, we know that their cabs aren't big slop boxes, so I have no choice but to believe that their marketing dept is lying through its teeth. That doesn't mean that the speaker doesn't sound good.

But I haven't heard either the utopias or the mementos, so take all of what I'm saying with a few handfuls of salt, of course.

btw, what kind of music do you typically listen to?

 

[music_man]

(edit: after i just typed all of this i see you already answered all these questions in the above post. i do not know why i didn't realise that the first time i read it. i'll leave this post as is for integrity. anyhow (ooheadsoo) we seem to be on the same page in regard to what we expect of playback equiment. also in respect to what we consider the word "live" to mean as it applies to the playing of music. therefore i think i shall go hear the s-9's asap.)


everyone says about the mementos what you are saying about the s-9's. i did not hear this myself. it could be the music i brought. or subjectivity. nonetheless i was strangely intrigued by them. maybe if by nothing other than their physical beauty. however shallow that may be.

my musical preference tends to be classic(pops) and progressive/modern jazz. i will listen to pretty much anything so long as it is well recorded. you may even see that i showed up in the hip-hop thread.

the utopias do not really throw a wall of sound that would make them appear much larger than they are. they are however very accurate and true to what was recorded. that is usually my number one criteria for equipment.

i normally listen at very low levels. around 85db. do the s-9's still function well at such low levels? if i "crank" the utopias(solely for a test) they "poop" out quickly. of course i don't mind since i don't do that.

to me "live" means not a recording. ie, musicians playing in person as listeners are physically present. simply a matter of semantics. i thought you meant the s-9's impart a fake "venue" effect. i take it that is not what you meant.

as an engineer i can generally distinguish a vast difference between music that has been recorded and the music as it is being recorded while i am present. this is inherently due to limitations of all recording mediums, acoustics and the application of engineering processes. very good recordings(of which there are few) shall do a better job of capturing what "really went on" as the recording took place.

what i expect of my equipment is to playback as close to possible exactly what has been imprinted upon the recording medium. not to attempt to decipher the essence of whatever might have actually occured in it's entirety during the recording process. in regard not only to editing and processing but also acoustics and miking.

do the s-9's attempt to playback the information they are fed as it exists or do they try to interpolate information? i hope they do not present a wall of sound if it does not exist on a recording. many recordings are very intimate. it is hard for any speaker to be a jack of all trades. especially very small ones. everyone must ultimately decide on ones to their liking or compromise. the fact is that all loudspeakers impart a different sound when fed the same media. otherwise there would only be one speaker company in the world!

music_man

 

[ooheadsoo]

Well, it could turn out in the end that I'm just blowing smoke out of my rear - seems like you have the opportunity to hear the speakers yourself, if you choose to take it. Smooth flat frequency response, even power response, controlled dispersion, low distortion. The speaker designer is an engineer, and he originally designed his company's speakers as the ultimate monitors for pro use. It's a nice speaker and I like it. YMMV. I won't even say that you'll like it better than any given speaker. We both agree that people have different tastes. Our musical tastes are pretty similar except I don't like avantgarde/free jazz all that much, if that's what you mean by progressive. If you mean current artists like Hiromi or Bela Fleck and the Flecktones, then I'm with you.

 

[music_man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooheadsoo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, it could turn out in the end that I'm just blowing smoke out of my rear -

i doubt that. you have described them as you heard them. i can tell by reading many of your posts that you are competent at reviewing such items.

the manner in which you have described them would suggest i would like them a lot. as i always say "this stuff is highly subjective". so i will let you know what i think once i hear them. i do intend to. it might be a while untill i get to where they are located though.

in the meantime i will probably demo anything high end and small that happens to be close by me if i come across it. i will report my findings here if anything stands out(or doesnt).

so stay tuned.

on a side note, i figured i'd mention the dynaudio special 25's. the limited edition birdseye finish ones. i always really liked those. i don't know why i missed my opportunity at the time to own a pair at a great price

new ones sold out a long time ago. quite frankly i remember them to be more to my liking than my focals. i still really like the focals. i'm not simply out to replace them. if something is much better for me i call that evolution. in that case i would not hesitate to replace them. or any audio component that i felt was better for that matter.

music_man

 

[ooheadsoo]

I do my best to avoid overstatement, which I suspect runs rampant on most audio forums, and perhaps even professional reviews. I've heard great things about the special 25s. I'd love to hear them one day.

 

[freeflier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man /img/forum/go_quote.gif i am intrested to hear this: http://sumikoaudio.net/sonus/prod_guarneri_memento.htm it could maybe a huge upgrade to my micro utopias. on the other hand as always speaker sound is highly subjective. just because they are twice the price of my jmlab's doesnt mean i'd be guaranteed to like them better of course. once i hear them i'll let you guys know(what i think). well, one thing i think already is they are some darn expensive little speakers they'd have to compete with reference floorstanders for that kind of cash imho. music_man

Dude,
I've heard the Guarneri Homage. Probably the only speaker I've ever heard that had bass that was in the same league as my old Thiel 1.5s (very tight and accurate). Bear in mind I'm an upright bass FANATIC. A VERY VERY good speaker and one of the very few that really stands out from the crowd as both highly accurate and musically balanced.
Ps I'm convinced that good monitors are a very good way to go in order to minimize the extreme bass hump that most small to average sized rooms impart. If you get it right, the rolled off bass responce of a monitor (in comparison to a full sized floor stander) can very nicely balance the room reenforcement.