[cladane]

In the mean time, can you tell me if I made the right choice choosing the 445 instead of the 2A3 ? 

   I made my deposit but I can still change the 845 for the 2A3.
 
And also, in your opinion, with the 845, should I kept my LCD-X or sell it and jump to the HE1OOO or ABYSS instead ?

 
#Yoga is right: the Egoista deserves an Abyss.
From what I heard, keeping a TH900, HD800 or LCD-X, it isn't false that the 2A3 would make a good pairing and possibly not a large gap with the 845.
But there are many other 2A3 amps available, among them EC ones.
 
Keep in mind that probably you will buy the Abyss which the Egoista makes shine.
 
Life is made of choices (but not difficult for someone with a 20000€ entertainment budget).

 

[superfred21]

Yoga.
 
Consensus at the meeting; the egoista 845 and 2A3 far outweighs front of all other amplifiers.
More dynamic,  big  resolution.
For 845 and  2A3  the comments are divided but the 845 wins votes.

 

[Yoga]

Thanks Fred! I'll be demoing both with the Abyss next month - can't wait :¬)

 

[romaz]

Here is the logic I have come up with on why the Egoistas are so special.  It is an oversimplification but the logic is there:
 
Abyss 1266 impedance = 46 ohms
 
SOLID STATE AMPS:
 
Strength - Dynamics due to power
 
Wells Audio Headtrip - 25w at 32ohms
Moon Neo 430HA - 8w at 50ohms
Auralic Taurus Mk2 - 4.5w at 35 ohms
 
Weakness - Edge and grain.  Doesn't have the liquidity that is the domain of tubes.
 
 
TUBE AMPS:
 
Strength - Liquidity and tone = more musical
 
Weakness - Doesn't have the dynamics of solid state
 
Eddie Current 2A3 MkIV - 0.8w at 32 ohms
Eddie Current 445 - 3w at 8 ohms
Apex Pinnacle - 1.5w at 32 ohms
Woo WA5 with 300B tubes (its most powerful tube) - 1.5w
Woo 234 with 2A3 tubes - 4w
 
 
EGOISTAS
 
Strength:  Liquidity and tone of tubes + Dynamics (best of both worlds)
 
Egoista 845 = 15w 
Egoista 2A3 = 4w
 
On paper, it would seem the Egoista 2A3 is no match for the Egoista 845 as this is the most powerful commercially made production tube headphone amp I am aware of but of all the tubes I've heard, the 2A3 produces the most sublime tone.  Its harmonic texture is simply stunning and on intimate vocals, it sounds better than the 845.  You can argue that the Egoista 2A3 has more competition and that is correct but the EC 2A3 puts out only 0.8w and doesn't have the punch of the Egoista.  This is the weakness of most 2A3 amps I have heard.  You would have to go to the Woo 234 and fit it with 2A3 tubes to match the 4w of the Egoista 2A3 but the Woo 234 will set you back almost 18k USD.  For that price, you can almost buy both Egoistas.  I now see why Viva would make both amps and why this is not an easy decision for some.  I am told (again, this is rumor being spread by my Viva dealer so take it for what it's worth) that Amedeo prefers the 845 but others within his camp including one who is a recording engineer prefer the 2A3.  In the end, it comes down to what type of music you listen to the most.  Music that has a lot of dynamic range (complex orchestra works) sound better on the 845.  Intimate vocals sound better on the 2A3.  At least that's my take based on my listening experience so far.

 

[bmichels]

Very very interesting. Waiting for the rest of your finding.
 
but...now I am in full hesitation between the 2A3 & the 845 for my purchase !  

 
Anyway, I really do not understand how the VIVA 2A3 Amp can be 5 time more powerful than the EC2A3 Amp that uses 4 tubes 2A3 tubes instead of the 2 tubes 2A3 for the VIVA !?
 
How VIVA can get 10 times more power from the same 2A3 power tubes than Eddie Curent?  Impossible !!  

 

 

[romaz]

  Very very interesting. Waiting for the rest of your finding.
 
but...now I am in full hesitation between the 2A3 & the 845 for my purchase !  

 
Anyway, I really do not understand how the VIVA 2A3 Amp can be 5 time more powerful than the EC2A3 Amp that uses 4 tubes 2A3 tubes instead of the 2 tubes 2A3 for the VIVA !?
 
How VIVA can get 10 times more power from the same 2A3 power tubes than Eddie Curent?  Impossible !!  

 

Unfortunately, there are no official specs available for the Egoista 2A3 but the 4 watt output has been confirmed for me by 2 separate individuals and both are Viva dealers.  I would say based on my experience with the 2A3 that it appears as dynamic as an Auralic Taurus I have on hand which outputs 4.5 watts.  I have e-mailed Viva for their official specs and I have received no response but I am told Amedeo hesitates to give out specs as he does not believe they represent his amps well.  Since you are able to communicate with him directly by e-mail, perhaps he might respond to you.

 

[cladane]

In the end, it comes down to what type of music you listen to the most.  Music that has a lot of dynamic range (complex orchestra works) sound better on the 845.  Intimate vocals sound better on the 2A3.  At least that's my take based on my listening experience so far.

Hi there,
 
We experienced also this feeling and I agree with you.
It is the reason why I wrote to #bmichels that keeping his headphones the 2A3 would be a good choice.
 
BUT the 2A3 lacks power to drive the Abyss. The 845 provides a never heard before souding from the Abyss particularly in the bass frequencies. This is very noticeable; just put the 2A3 and the 845 side by side and one Abyss connected on each amp and you can't miss it.

 

After a lot of back and forth with Vincet Brient, I believe the d1-dual is the better pairing with the 845 compared to the d1-tube-Mk2 and I have been tempted to order one for 14 day evaluation.

Really, I think that in a blind test, you couldn't differentiate the D1 Dual and the D1 Single. The Egoista has RCA inputs, stereo design, optimized for headphones. Headphones are no way as resolvant as the high level speakers systems Vincent Brient uses for his tests.
Adding a desimetrizer for the Dual DAC is non sense.
 
Perhaps if you prefer voices warmth more than precision, the D1-tube-mk2....? 

 

[romaz]

BUT the 2A3 lacks power to drive the Abyss. The 845 provides a never heard before souding from the Abyss particularly in the bass frequencies. This is very noticeable; just put the 2A3 and the 845 side by side and one Abyss connected on each amp and you can't miss it.

 
I agree with you completely that if you compare the 2A3 side by side with the 845 on the Abyss, the 2A3 will seem inadequate.  With first impressions, we are generally drawn more to the shinier object and the 845 is a supernova.  However, the more time I have spent with both amps and as I have gotten more accustomed to the power of the 845, it has become easier to appreciate what the 2A3 brings to the table and I have found the shadow that the 845 casts over the 2A3 is now less dramatic.  With that said, I have never heard a more grand presentation than what I have heard with the Abyss connected to the 845.  It is truly spectacular.  
 
One more thing to consider for those thinking about pairing the 845 with the Abyss is fatigue.  I have found, for example, that I can listen to the 2A3 with the LCD-3F seemingly forever and not feel tired (except that the LCD-3 is too tight for my head).  It is that smooth and engaging.  At some point, the 845 with the Abyss can get a bit too much mainly because the Abyss doesn't sound as good when played at low levels and so I find that I have to play it louder to appreciate it.  My French friend is fond of telling me that when he wants to go out for a special occasion, he likes to order filet mignon, but on any other evening, he prefers "comfort food" like the ratatouille that his wife makes. If headphone listening is a special event for you and you want a grand performance each time you listen, then the 845 with the Abyss is for you but if you listen frequently and for long periods of time and your preference is more to chill and relax, you might actually prefer the 2A3.
 
If it sounds like I prefer the 2A3 over the 845, I do not, at least not yet. Truth be told, from one moment to the next, I find myself going back and forth but I take comfort in knowing that I cannot make a wrong decision.

 

[bmichels]

   
I agree with you completely that if you compare the 2A3 side by side with the 845 on the Abyss, the 2A3 will seem inadequate.  With first impressions, we are generally drawn more to the shinier object and the 845 is a supernova.  However, the more time I have spent with both amps and as I have gotten more accustomed to the power of the 845, it has become easier to appreciate what the 2A3 brings to the table and I have found the shadow that the 845 casts over the 2A3 is now less dramatic.  With that said, I have never heard a more grand presentation than what I have heard with the Abyss connected to the 845.  It is truly spectacular.  
 
One more thing to consider for those thinking about pairing the 845 with the Abyss is fatigue.  I have found, for example, that I can listen to the 2A3 with the LCD-3F seemingly forever and not feel tired (except that the LCD-3 is too tight for my head).  It is that smooth and engaging.  At some point, the 845 with the Abyss can get a bit too much mainly because the Abyss doesn't sound as good when played at low levels and so I find that I have to play it louder to appreciate it.  My French friend is fond of telling me that when he wants to go out for a special occasion, he likes to order filet mignon, but on any other evening, he prefers "comfort food" like the ratatouille that his wife makes. If headphone listening is a special event for you and you want to a grand performance each time you listen, then the 845 with the Abyss is for you but if you listen frequently and for long periods of time and your preference is more to chill and relax, you might actually prefer the 2A3.
 
If it sounds like I prefer the 2A3 over the 845, I do not, at least not yet. Truth be told, from one moment to the next, I find myself going back and forth but I take comfort in knowing that I cannot make a wrong decision.

 
OK, and then what about the combos  845+LCD-3  or even ... 845+HE1000 ?  Could't it be the best of booth world: better than 2A3+LCD-3 and less fatiguing than 845+ABYSS ? 
 
( I am wondering if my order for 845 was the right choice. May be I should change it for a 2A3....

  but then will the SQ difference between my EC445 and the 2A3 be big enough to justify "upgrading" from my EC445 ?  I definitively noticed a real SQ difference between my EC445 and the 845 (at least a larger stage, more "space around") to justify the change, but.... will it still be a big change to the 2A3 or will I end-up with a sound very similar to my curent EC445  ??) 

 

[romaz]

 

Really, I think that in a blind test, you couldn't differentiate the D1 Dual and the D1 Single. The Egoista has RCA inputs, stereo design, optimized for headphones. Headphones are no way as resolvant as the high level speakers systems Vincent Brient uses for his tests.
Adding a desimetrizer for the Dual DAC is non sense.
 
Perhaps if you prefer voices warmth more than precision, the D1-tube-mk2....? 

 
You bring up an excellent point here.  It has always been my belief that in a headphone chain, the transducer (headphone) should be the most important part of the chain because it is ultimately what provides sound to your ear and no amp or DAC will significantly change the character of the transducer.  The amp should be the second and DAC third and yet for many of us (including myself), we are willing to spend our money in the opposite fashion.  Some will spend nearly 30k for a TotalDac-twelve, 12k for an Egoista 845 and then 5k for an Abyss even though the DAC will make the smallest difference.  Based on statements you and others have made recently, you are clearly passionate about your headphone of choice (Abyss) and that is how it should be.  Then, we search for the best amp possible to make the Abyss sound good.  Your recent experience where you really couldn't tell the difference among a TotalDac, Numerico and Chord I think supports the assertion that this is the piece that makes the least difference mainly because, as you have stated so well, the limiting factor is the headphone.  Unlike a pair of Focal Utopias or Sonus Faber Cremonas, an Abyss can only yield so much resolution and dynamics and so the abilities of certain DACs will never be realized with even the best headphones.
 
As for the TotalDac single vs dual, this is where I have to rely on my European friends.  I have no direct experience with the TotalDac and obviously because Vincent sells direct, there are no local dealers here in the U.S. but I am impressed by what has been said about it and I am equally impressed by my interaction with Vincent.  I would be happy to settle for the d1-single and spend the money elsewhere if there is no distinguishable difference.  Like yourself, if I decide to move forward with an Egoista, I want to make sure my DAC is not the limiting factor and so I value the opinions provided by you and others on this matter.

 

[romaz]

   
OK, and then what about the combos  845+LCD-3  or even ... 845+HE1000 ?  Could't it be the best of booth world: better than 2A3+LCD-3 and less fatiguing than 845+ABYSS ? 
 
( I am wondering if my order for 845 was the right choice. May be I should change it for a 2A3....

  but then will the SQ difference between my EC445 and the 2A3 be big enough to justify "upgrading" from my EC445 ?  I definitively noticed a real SQ difference between my EC445 and the 845 (at least a larger stage, more "space around") to justify the change, but.... will it still be a big change to the 2A3 or will I end-up with a sound very similar to my curent EC445  ??) 

Let me answer you in a few hours since my detailed review is almost completed.  For you specifically, it would help me to know your listening style and the type of music you like to listen to most often.

 

[bmichels]

  Let me answer you in a few hours since my detailed review is almost completed.  For you specifically, it would help me to know your listening style and the type of music you like to listen to most often.

Thanks
 
my music: some classical (little), some piano (little), Pop/rock (more), vocals.
Some prefered track : pinkfloyd "wish you where here", hotel Califiornia, Supertramp, Beethoven N°7 symphony, ....    
Nothing agressive !  (NEVER RAP or Electro)
 
As for headphone: on my EC445, I prefer my TH900 to my LCD-X (I prefer the LCD-X direct on my HUGO !? but still... find it very UNcofortable).
May be I should have bought a LCD-3 instead of the LCD-X ? or... should not have bought a LCD at all and instead a MrSpeaker ETHER, or HifiMan HE1000 or an ABYSS ??? --> Anyway, I have the feeling that I still have not found "MY Headphone" & "MY AMP". 

 

[negura]

  Unfortunately, there are no official specs available for the Egoista 2A3 but the 4 watt output has been confirmed for me by 2 separate individuals and both are Viva dealers.  I would say based on my experience with the 2A3 that it appears as dynamic as an Auralic Taurus I have on hand which outputs 4.5 watts.  I have e-mailed Viva for their official specs and I have received no response but I am told Amedeo hesitates to give out specs as he does not believe they represent his amps well.  Since you are able to communicate with him directly by e-mail, perhaps he might respond to you.

 
I did not know Viva have a 2A3 model. Very interesting. If the power supply is good, I wouldn't see any headphones being challenging to drive.
 
Just to clarify. The Eddie Current 2A3x4 out of 6 watts into 8 ohms drives these speakers exceptionally well, and yes that is including the big woofers with really excellent bass response: http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php/equipment-menu/367-pmc-ib2i-loudspeakers
 
Manufacturer specs:
Recommended Amp Power: 180-900W

 

 
 
It so happens it also drives the HE-6s flawlessly. The Abyss are an easy job.
 
A good 845 amp should make short work of driving most speakers and any headphones. Hence why I am buying an 845 amp (not Viva).  However I wish Viva reconsidered removing the speaker taps off their "headamps". After all there should be little differences to their similar speaker amps. Not sure anyone picked this up yet. By the looks of it the headamps are actually pretty much their existing speaker amps with speaker taps removed and a headphones output. They will probably deny it, but I think it's just marketing strategy to offer different lines.

 

[romaz]

   
I did not know Viva have a 2A3 model. Very interesting. If the power supply is good, I wouldn't see any headphones being challenging to drive.
 
Just to clarify. The Eddie Current 2A3x4 out of 6 watts into 8 ohms drives these speakers exceptionally well, and yes that is including the big woofers with really excellent bass response: http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php/equipment-menu/367-pmc-ib2i-loudspeakers
 
Manufacturer specs:
Recommended Amp Power: 180-900W

 

 
 
It so happens it also drives the HE-6s flawlessly. The Abyss are an easy job.
 
P.S.: I wish Viva reconsidered removing the speaker taps off their "headamps". After all there should be little differences to their similar speaker amps. Not sure anyone picked that up yet. By the looks of it these are actually pretty much their existing speaker amps with speaker taps removed and a headphones output. They will probably deny it, but I think it's just marketing strategy to offer different lines.

Yes, it is a new amp. A production model was available as early as 2014 but apparently Viva didn't want to release it at the same time as the 845 because they wanted the spotlight only on the 845.
 
According to the Eddie Current website, the 2A3 MKIV "will drive 8 ohm speakers to 6 watts per channel" but the Abyss has a much higher impedance of 46 ohms.  Again, according to the Eddie Current website, "Power into 32 ohms is 800mW" which would mean that at 46 ohms, it's probably a little less than 800mW.  
 
People have mentioned connecting their Abyss directly to the balanced outputs of a TotalDac d1-dual without an outboard amp and that it sounded good.  When I asked Vincent Brient for the power output from the balanced connections of the d1-dual, he told me it is about 6.2V which is about 1 watt so it would make sense 800mW might be enough to power the Abyss.  Personally, I have connected the Abyss to the headphone output of my Sony ZX2 portable DAP which outputs only 15mW and I will tell you at max volume, it plays sufficiently loud and clean but the dynamics and air are no where the same.  As others who have heard the Abyss on the 845 will tell you, there is no comparison.

 

[negura]

  Yes, it is a new amp. A production model was available as early as 2014 but apparently Viva didn't want to release it at the same time as the 845 because they wanted the spotlight only on the 845.
 
According to the Eddie Current website, the 2A3 MKIV "will drive 8 ohm speakers to 6 watts per channel" but the Abyss has a much higher impedance of 46 ohms.  Again, according to the Eddie Current website, "Power into 32 ohms is 800mW" which would mean that at 46 ohms, it's probably a little less than 800mW.  
 
People have mentioned connecting their Abyss directly to the balanced outputs of a TotalDac d1-dual without an outboard amp and that it sounded good.  When I asked Vincent Brient for the power output from the balanced connections of the d1-dual, he told me it is about 6.2V which is about 1 watt so it would make sense 800mW might be enough to power the Abyss.  Personally, I have connected the Abyss to the headphone output of my Sony ZX2 portable DAP which outputs only 15mW and I will tell you at max volume, it plays sufficiently loud and clean but the dynamics and air are no where the same.  As others who have heard the Abyss on the 845 will tell you, there is no comparison.

 
I think that spec is inaccurate. Note that it's the same quoted spec for both the 2 tubes as well as 4 tubes versions. That can't be right. I can't explain how but the 2A3x4 amp has immense power on tap, with both speakers and headphones. With tube amps my gut feeling is it is the transformers and power supply quality that are the most important. I think the actual max wattage is much less important. And I am comparing speakers amped by a 120 lbs solid state high class A bias, 320 Watts amp. There is no loss on dynamics, air, headroom or what has you with the 2A3. Even the bass is excellent.
 
This is exactly how a puny power 20-24 watts 845 amp can drive demanding speakers that are rated for much much higher minimum power requirements, perfectly well. My only explanation is the power supply, which is a very demanding requirement for high voltage transmission tube amps in the first place.
 
With headphones it's probably totally overkill, but that is also a good thing. And the 845s have a different presentation than smaller triodes.