[zowie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot What is a "16 rpm celluloid disk"? See ya Steve

It now says "78 rpm celluloid disk" but I still don't know what that's supposed to be.

 

[Zanth]

I like both formats. My CD player has great attack and weight to the notes. The vinyl rig does too, but it is not as consistant, even though the quantity of bass from my vinyl rig is on average greater.

Those that speak about mastering have it right. I think when it comes down to it, given great systems, the bottle neck will always be the disc. Some of my cd's are hauntingly good, whereas my vinyl might be lackluster and vice versa. Still, overall I prefer the vinyl rig because of the interaction. But my CD player is prettier to look at

 

[Scrith]

I think it comes down to the mastering. I personally have some examples of music from a readily-available CD that sounds just awful in comparison to a homemade digital recording of vinyl-based playback of the same album with a high-end analog system. Well, aside from the inevitable (and highly annoying) surface noise that vinyl playback inevitably gives you along with your music. Anyway, in these recordings, the digital copy has a very vinyl-like sound that the CD version does not. So, really guys, I think it's the mastering...not to say that the vinyl mastering is better, just that it sounds different, and some people prefer that sound.

By the way, I'm pretty sure you could get "the vinyl sound" with some decent DSP plug-ins. I know it works for "the tube sound" (which I really don't care for either).

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadbang I actually just returned a Shure M97 to Amazon. Nice, their return policy doesn't list cartridges as non-returnable! It was a TAD darker than the Ortofon, but lost tons in air and imaging. I was very surprised by how mediocre it was, after reading all these raves (of course, Tuberoller didn't like Shures -- I should have know better.) When I bought the TD-125 it came with an old Grado cartridge which actually sounded more like I thought vinyl should sound. The stylus was shot and distorting, but it was nicely dark and full sounding. I'd love to hear a new Grado sans distortion. I wonder if the Black is really what I'm looking for. Tuberoller said he thought it sounded veiled and syrupy. Maybe that's what I need.

Most of the issues with cartridges sounding completely different to different people is down to the tonearm influencing the cartridges sound.

The TP14 is quite a high mass tonearm and most carts these days are designed to work with medium mass so it's not going to be that easy to find a good modern match.

The more I think about it what you really need to get that classic vinyl sound is a classic cartridge design which is still being made unchanged from the 1960's-70's.

The Shure M-55 / M-75 maybe? or the one of the Denon MC's like the 103 could be your best bet. The Denon's are very cheap for MC carts and have a real cult following.

Also are you sure your arm is a TP14 and not a TP25. Check out what Stepano Passini writes about it here http://www.stefanopasini.it/Thorens%...0EMT%20929.htm

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrith I think it comes down to the mastering. I personally have some examples of music from a readily-available CD that sounds just awful in comparison to a homemade digital recording of vinyl-based playback of the same album with a high-end analog system. Well, aside from the inevitable (and highly annoying) surface noise that vinyl playback inevitably gives you along with your music. Anyway, in these recordings, the digital copy has a very vinyl-like sound that the CD version does not. So, really guys, I think it's the mastering...not to say that the vinyl mastering is better, just that it sounds different, and some people prefer that sound. By the way, I'm pretty sure you could get "the vinyl sound" with some decent DSP plug-ins. I know it works for "the tube sound" (which I really don't care for either).

I'm with you on this one. IMO it's all about mastering. Instead of reviving an arguably inferior and highly sensitive format, it would be nice if the recording industry just focused on making properly mastered CDs and other digital recording. Probably won't happen, so I have no doubts that the vinyl revivial will continue.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleestack I'm with you on this one. IMO it's all about mastering. Instead of reviving an arguably inferior and highly sensitive format, it would be nice if the recording industry just focused on making properly mastered CDs and other digital recording. Probably won't happen, so I have no doubts that the vinyl revivial will continue.

That and the fact that a great many albums will likely never appear on CD or any digital format for that matter.

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth That and the fact that a great many albums will likely never appear on CD or any digital format for that matter.

Yes. Totally true. The available library for vinyl is amazing.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleestack I'm with you on this one. IMO it's all about mastering. Instead of reviving an arguably inferior and highly sensitive format, it would be nice if the recording industry just focused on making properly mastered CDs and other digital recording. Probably won't happen, so I have no doubts that the vinyl revivial will continue.

I don't think you can argue that the revival in vinyl is as a result of pressure from the recording industry. They did try very hard to kill it in the 1980's...

It's a very expensive and labour intensive process making a record so this raises the bar to only artists that are serious enough. The fact that anyone can make a CD and mail it to a record label is a great democratising assett but it also means you have to wade through ever more crap to find anything worthwhile.

This and the fact that vinyl is harder to pirate are two of the reasons they are getting behind it now, but the main one is that there is money in it.

Vinyl never went away because it was always in consumer demand. Simple as that. The recording industry would still be selling us 8 track carts if enough people used them to make it profitworthy.

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool I don't think you can argue that the revival in vinyl is as a result of pressure from the recording industry. They did try very hard to kill it in the 1980's... It's a very expensive and labour intensive process making a record so this raises the bar to only artists that are serious enough. The fact that anyone can make a CD and mail it to a record label is a great democratising assett but it also means you have to wade through ever more crap to find anything worthwhile. This and the fact that vinyl is harder to pirate are two of the reasons they are getting behind it now, but the main one is that there is money in it. Vinyl never went away because it was always in consumer demand. Simple as that. The recording industry would still be selling us 8 track carts if enough people used them to make it profitworthy.

I'm not sure that I said it is a result of pressure from the recording industry. I definitely think it is a result of demand, but think that demand would be less if the recording industry focused on mastering digital formats properly.

 

[Zanth]

I think the reason Vinyl has survived at the level it has is not because of the niche audiophiles and vinylphiles that are apt to keep any old format going just 'cause...but rather it is because of the dance/hip hop crowd. Folks, the DJ has ruled over vinyl for the last 20 years because of the ease of manipulation, 12" and albums have lived on and on in high numbers. Without the DJ's, most kids would not be into it because vinyl would not be as "cool." Sure we would have the folks that want to listen to the original 60's and 70's acid rock on their bazaar tables but overall, the DJ's kept it en vogue to a point now that people my age and under are really interested in getting back into it. With the increase of indie artists pressing lp's, we have a choice between buying the CD or the LP.

Here is an AWESOME tactic by one record label: Merge, they release an LP and provide a link to the site to download the digital files in a high bitrate. How cool is that!!! If all LP's came with this option I bet LP's would fly off the shelves. Camera Obscura's recent album, noted to be among the best released this year, came out on Merge. I bought the LP and have the luxury of having the mp3s on my iPod for work. Perfect example of having one's cake and eating it to. All that is left is that the digifiles come lossless, then we REALLY have it all.

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth I think the reason Vinyl has survived at the level it has is not because of the niche audiophiles and vinylphiles that are apt to keep any old format going just 'cause...but rather it is because of the dance/hip hop crowd. Folks, the DJ has ruled over vinyl for the last 20 years because of the ease of manipulation, 12" and albums have lived on and on in high numbers. Without the DJ's, most kids would not be into it because vinyl would not be as "cool." Sure we would have the folks that want to listen to the original 60's and 70's acid rock on their bazaar tables but overall, the DJ's kept it en vogue to a point now that people my age and under are really interested in getting back into it. With the increase of indie artists pressing lp's, we have a choice between buying the CD or the LP.

I think you're right about that. DJ's and their trusty Technics definitely kept things alive. That being said, the recent proliferation of high end turntables, phono stages and heavy vinyl reissues indicate that audiophiles have jumped back on the ship.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleestack That being said, the recent proliferation of high end turntables, phono stages and heavy vinyl reissues indicate that audiophiles have jumped back on the ship.

Most definitely. But we both know they are buying older first prints or new reissues on audiophile labels. I would bet these albums are LOW on the list of big sellers, the biggest sales are still the indie bands (White Stripes for instance). That said, no doubt that the hardware manufacturers are selling large to the audiophiles, only Technics I would imagine is really making any money from the younger gen. Most of them would be buying up used tables they see at flea markets and/or pilfer from Dad's basement

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleestack I'm not sure that I said it is a result of pressure from the recording industry. I definitely think it is a result of demand, but think that demand would be less if the recording industry focused on mastering digital formats properly.

Don't think demand for well produced material is a major factor at all, otherwise formats like SACD would have taken off. The number of people who are interested enough in Hi-Fi reproduction to notice these things is a very small and insignificant one unfortunately.

The simple fact is that Vinyl wouldn't exist today were it not for the hip hop and dance markets in general. Compare the figures for 12" singles sales until very recently to every other format and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool Don't think demand for well produced material is a major factor at all, otherwise formats like SACD would have taken off. The number of people who are interested enough in Hi-Fi reproduction to notice these things is a very small and insignificant one unfortunately. The simple fact is that Vinyl wouldn't exist today were it not for the hip hop and dance markets in general. Compare the figures for 12" singles sales until very recently to every other format and you'll see what I mean.

I'm sure you are right, however there is definitely a vinyl revival that is going on in the audiophile industry as well and thousands of recordings geared toward audiophiles. When it comes to those types of recordings I think the one of the reasons many audiophiles are turning to vinyl is because of the difficulty in finding well mastered digital material... that includes Redbook and SACD.

 

[neilvg]

If I'm going to add something it would simply be that I concur wholeheartedly with the poor mastering on RBCD. In my experience, many of the CD's I own from the 80's and 90's seem to be very poor transfers as compared to their vinyl counterparts. Many albums from the 60's and 70's literally only sound good on vinyl. There have been 70's albums that have only now have come to CD with a good mastering job (usually as a Japanese Mini-LP) and they sound great!

I find it a little funny that people would spend so much money on high-end CD players when in fact they are battling against poor masters. But I'm not saying don't get expensive CD players; god knows I have one or three

Neil