[leftside]

I had a  big listening session this weekend where I would play the same music through the DAC and on the turntable at the same time. I just need to press a button on the remote control of the preamp to switch between the two. The DAC has been recently upgraded and costs about the same as the turntable + cart + phono pre. 
 
It made for a very interesting comparison. Vinyl sounds smoother. More romantic and relaxing. If there was any harshness, then it was tamed. I don't tolerate noisy/poppy records now that I have a new DAC. If they are still like this after cleaning, then they get taken to the charity store. Some new records are pressed badly, and some old/used records are beyond repair. The 500+ vinyl albums I have are very quiet.
 
Through the DAC the music seemed more dynamic and musical instruments seemed to have a wider separation. I felt myself switching between the turntable and the DAC depending upon the music.
 
Pick your poison. It's ok to like both poisons

 

[DoctaCosmos]

I don't personally own a vinyl rig due to my selection of music is so dynamic and to me the ability of one finger touch and play is is hard to pass up. With that being said I'm not against vinyl by any means. I'm on the forums a lot and there's always some reason why this new DAC is better than the other ones. Respectful of what a god dac accomplishes, most of what they're aiming for aside from THD and noise floor is putting the pieces together in a timely manner and creating a perfect image. With a vinyl rig, there is none of that. The subtle details are where they belong in the depth of things and not falsely thrown at you (although imo, it can be a good thing sometimes). What I'm getting at is that everything is where it's suppose to be because it's never been broken down and then needed to be put back together.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Spotify is going lossless and maybe Deezer too. That pretty much means all the music almost ever recorded could be streamed directly to your house in 16bit-44.1 kHz.

That means that potentially for the first time there is a great way to get away from computer audio. Just possibly most will have small receivers the size of cassette tapes offering optical, coaxial and USB digital out to your DAC of choice. The issues the small hardware device will have to deal with will be small in comparison to the workings of a full size computer. No moving parts and only a couple parts inside.


Besides CDs I have heard streaming sound pretty good. Surprisingly good. Just coaxial to your DAC and away you go.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I don't personally own a vinyl rig due to my selection of music is so dynamic and to me the ability of one finger touch and play is is hard to pass up. With that being said I'm not against vinyl by any means. I'm on the forums a lot and there's always some reason why this new DAC is better than the other ones. Respectful of what a god dac accomplishes, most of what they're aiming for aside from THD and noise floor is putting the pieces together in a timely manner and creating a perfect image. With a vinyl rig, there is none of that. The subtle details are where they belong in the depth of things and not falsely thrown at you (although imo, it can be a good thing sometimes). What I'm getting at is that everything is where it's suppose to be because it's never been broken down and then needed to be put back together.

That's exactly right it has always been about the digital timing. You can even get a system to perform at bad timing to hear the effect in a drastic way to understand the concept. Taking WASAPI out of Foobar 2000 and changing the buffer will get you a timing issue. In small ways we almost don't notice the timing issue at hand. Even a cheap turntable can be smooth as your listening to a pure stream. There is no correction as it's anologue. Let alone your music having to go past a cable that runs one way, adds up the numbers then gets more numbers from another direction, then computes everything to make sure all is well ..........all day long.

It's an improvement in timng that you pay for with an expensive stand alone CD player in contrast to computer audio and USB. Even just finding some high end old $250 Sony Player and going coaxial is going to show the listener this issue is now gone and we are again one step closer to vinyl.


It's not something that can always be noticed right away but you kind of instictually know something is up. That is the gift vinyl can do even with low priced levels.

 

[stalepie]

  I was going to share my thoughts, but your two recordings show the differences even on my (half-decent) computer speakers.  One is a bit harsh and lifeless and the other has air around the music, and presence, the vocals have timbre and decay with the vinyl playback.  With the vinyl it sounds like the guy could be real.  I can't comment about soundstaging considering my $150 speakers playing music from YouTube, but I'll bet the analog playback does have more depth,and the stringed instruments more like a live guitar or violin too.

 
But you're hearing both digital files there. The one you describe as having more air and timbre is also a digital playback because it's through YouTube and your computer.

 

[bagwell359]

Nope.  All digital.  I've sold 20% of my vinyl for about 3k over at discogs.  Equipment is starting to go out shortly.  Saves space, and I don't degrade my Delmoni or UHQR by actually listening to it, not to mention my Koetsu needs to be retipped.

 

[edwyun]

I think there's room for all formats, and not just vinyl or CD.  In fact, some vinyl or CD recorded on R2R at 15ips sounds even better, at least to me.  I agree the differences in formats are subtle but they are there.  But it also is affected by the recording, artist, venue, etc.
 
In those instances where I have identical recordings on vinyl and CD, it usually is the case I prefer vinyl but not always.
 
YMMV.

 

[panterarapida]

I know this thread is older but I'm only now going through my own stereo journey. Once I got my vintage turntable, amp and speakers I set out to listen to a pair of DAC and CD players that some friends lent me with the focus on gear that was affordable, not those with sky high prices that would cost more then my entire system.

I played some digital hi-res albums and CDs and found either medium to sound somewhat brittle, harsh and I just didn't enjoy listening to much music on them.

Where I had the file, CD and vinyl I compared all three and just found the turntable to sound the best. My assumption was at that point that I'd need to spend a serious amount of money on a DAC (didn't consider a CD player) to get the quality I was hearing through my TT.

I was fine with adding to my growing LP collection, going to stores, and I bought an affordable cleaning apparatus (with vacuum). There were some things about vinyl that were turning me off, and a number of things vinyl didn't quite live up to, but it was not enough to go to digital. Until last weekend.

I was able to A/B a few vintage, affordable CD players. I didn't like the stock ones, but there was one my friend had modified that just sounded amazing. The sound was natural, not brittle or harsh, it just invited me to listen to the next track, and the next, etc.

I brought it home and hooked it up to my stereo and have since been playing CDs I owned, ones I bought recently for only $2 in as new condition, and burning some of my hi-res digital files to CD-R.

Now I'm more into CDs because through this player they just sound so clear, and they maintain that 3D separation and sound I was only hearing through my TT. But I can appreciate that either medium has it's good and bad, one album or CD may sound better than the other, etc.

I do find it's easier to digest buying a bunch of very cheap newish CDs than dropping $30 on one new vinyl LP, so now I'm rethinking my direction with vinyl only.

 

[goodvibes]

When I compare formats, I use what I feel is representative of the best kit those formats have to offer, which I have access to. Of course 'best' is also relative to opinion so I won't get into specific products here but let's just say when I do this sort of compare, it's with over $30k sources. Vinyl is better than CD but not as good as a proper 24/192 wav file also played on costly dedicated kit (not a USB DAC). As I said in an earlier post and when using this sort of kit, a vinyl dub into a Nagra VI can sound better than the record when played in the same room as the turntable if the recording was made without the speakers playing because when you are listening to the table, the speaker vibrates the vinyl system regardless of how you try and isolate it or quality of it's suspension. When a recording is made, speakers will be off for this reason and it's enough to have the dub sound better than the vinyl in real time. If the table were in the next room it would obviously not be worse and likely a hair better. CDs are also susceptible to external vibration and tend to sound better when converted to stored files and streamed properly for that same reason besides the general laser tracking errors/jitter in real time playback. If both are transcribed properly it's still in favor of vinyl dubbed at a high bit rate. All that said, it's not cut and dry because the performance of Turntables cartridge combos vary by a huge amount.

I remember in the early days of digital, we were dubbing a tape to a tweaked out CD recorder (standard Phillips suspension) and were unhappy with the result. The folks that did that tweaking told us to try again without the speakers playing and it was lots better.

Also, I find many HiEnd turntables compromised by poor setup and/or MC cartridge loading and many are over engineered to the point where no one, even the designer, is in control of its resonance parameters. Damping tends to be selective so it's usually a situation where controlling resonance with little to none in a well thought out design and high quality components gets it done.

 

[Redcarmoose]

The best vinyl set-up tweak was a $4 premixed mixed drink handed to me once. It was an unexpected thing just brought up to the room............something fully out of the blue. It just may be that slight thing which reduces any stress helping the mind relax and focus. In the end it’s about mental attention into the music. If it’s digital or analog.....it’s breaking down barriers and gaining communication. IMO

I also learned audiophiles that are at the final junction of endless tweaks at times look at alcohol for that final ahhhhh. That and strangely placed antique musical instruments to add harmonic complexity to dull areas in a room.

Detail?
Listening to the details we seem to be fooled. The guy with the perfect playback gets tricked when someone gives him a new DAC to try. The new DAC does nothing more but have a treble spike. The guy sits alone for days contemplating the treble spike. He drifts far from where he was with his old sound.

It’s a combination of both the “new-toy” as it’s a new piece of gear.....new technology too. And it’s this new detailed sound, which can be revealing and entertaining.... but?

Somehow this new detail is a big change? He actually brings in other opinions as he knows he could be wrong? He needs more listers.....more drinks too!

Sometimes the single drink can offer insights too. All of us are way too caught up in this.

 

[ab_ba]

How cool to see some new life in this old thread! Thanks panterarapida for getting it going again. And, really good timing too - I've been thinking about vinyl vs digital a lot lately.

I went to Rocky Mountain Audio Fest this year - my first audio show. Everybody should go to an audio show. Going around from room to room is a complete delight, but more importantly, there's really no better way to figure out what you like. Years of reading forums and magazines can't measure up to an afternoon at an audio show. My likes surprised me a little. I thought I wanted music to be reproduced as accurately as possible. Let the music be musical, and let the gear be analytical. I'm pretty sure that's not my preference. Rather, I want music to be engrossing, vivid, thrilling. I think I'm willing to sacrifice a little accuracy to be drawn-in. This is art, after all.

At RMAF, I learned that I prefer tubes to solid state. And, I had it confirmed that I prefer vinyl to digital. I was able to listen to ridiculously expensive setups - nearly direct comparisons of top-end gear. When I entered a room, I felt like I could always readily identify wheter I was hearing vinyl or digital. Even when done perfectly, they just sound different. The PS Audio room was the best for this - they played digital while swapping records. The vinyl just bloomed. It filled space. The digital was clean. Digital is polite. It cleans up after itself. Vinyl wants to be the life of the party. Vinyl is watercolor, and digital is pen-and-ink. On good vinyl reproduction, the decay of a cymbal or an open chord just trails off forever. Digital just doesn't do that, not to the same extent at least, no matter the file resolution, no matter the quality of the dac. On the other hand, vinyl can be soft. I'd say digital is all about the attack, and vinly is all about the decay.

(Another benefit of an audio show - it puts a lot of debates to rest pretty quickly. I was able to tell that things that "should not matter" actually do - the Chord reclocker improved the sound of the Chord Dave, even though it shouldn't. MQA really does sound better.)

I left RMAF ready to try some tube gear. The easiest way to do it was a phono preamp. After reading reviews, I decided to try the Rogue Audio RP-5. It sounds better to me than my Violectic V600 - but it should, for 3x the price. (I've tried solid-state phono stages somewhat more expensive than the V600, but none improved on the sound enough to justify the expense.) Tubes aren't perfect - at least, not at this price-point. The RP-5 has some background hiss, and although it's audible while music is playing, it's not distracting. Tubes + vinyl are a pretty sweet combination. I would have thought it would be too much "imperfection" to hold my interest, but it's just so absorbing and gorgeous. Tonight I listened to Alt-J's Awesome Wave and Willie Nelson's Stardust, and both held me transfixed, beginning to end.

As it stands right now, my vinyl rig is a Clearaudio Performance turntable with a Talismann cartridge, going into the Rogue RP-5. That feeds my McIntosh MC152 and my B&W 805D2 speakers. I'm quite happy now. The analog frontend sounds better to me than my Ayre QB-9, and from what I heard at RMAF, I'd prefer my $10,000 vinyl frontend to a $10,000 dac, but I also know that this is purely a matter of taste. Your tastes might surprise you - go to an audio show and learn what you really like.

And then please come back here and tell us! I have to say, the posts on this thread were always such a delight to read. Thoughtful, informative. Just awesome.

 

[panterarapida]

Interestingly enough there is an Audio show here in two weeks which I am attending. A friend passed along the invite to last year's show, which I really enjoyed, but I didn't know as much about HiFi as I do now, so it will be interesting to walk around each room this year.

I get that you like vinyl over digital, but we need to level set which budgets we're working with. If you have a $10000+ system then yes, possibly vinyl can outshine CDs and DACs.

My entire rig cost me maybe $2500. The TT is a 1965 Lenco L75 that was cleaned up and placed inside a big heavy butchers block. It has the stock arm and an old MP-11 cart. It sounds really good.

The amp is a 1976 Sansui 9090, the speakers are Cerwin Vega VS-120. This year the speaker midranges were upgraded and all capacitors replaced, and all capacitors were replaced in the Sansui.

I built my own MDF board stand, deciding to go with only two levels (amp below, TT on top) with 3 MDF boards each shelf. Stand weigh 72 lbs. And then there's the newly acquired Cambridge CD player.

I don't see how to upload an image from my computer to the thread or I'd put one here.

Now I'm at the point where I either begin upgrading RCA and power cables as I'm using mostly standard ones, or replace the cart on the Lenco. I had hoped to get a 12" tonearm and cart, but I don't have the budget to do both right, so it's most likely a better cart for now.

Another issue is cleaning used vinyl. The affordable vacuum system I got, using the mix of fluids prescribed, honestly did nothing for me. Yes albums look cleaner, but either all these albums have scratches I can't see or the dirt never quite got cleaned out.

And therein lies even more cost. You get a nice TT, but then you have to buy a cleaning system, and then you realize the affordable setup may only gain you a 25% improvement, so you go seek out even more expensive solutions.

Before you know it you could have bought a tricked out CD player for a few hundred and a ton of CDs for $2. You just have to accept the fact that this is all you can have.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Music is intrinsically analog. When mastering was analog there was no question vinyl was better. I remember when CDs came out. I went to several high end shops that tried to sell me big money CD setups and they sounded horrible. I swore off digital anything for the next 25 years or so.

Now that everything has been digitally mastered for a long time it's unclear. Personally I like the sound of SACD (and DSD). It sounds like what I expect from vinyl. CDs can often sound great too. I think it mostly comes down to the quality of mastering. After that whatever media they create is going to be great or suck or somewhere in between based on how good the recording was. So try 'em all...

 

[Redcarmoose]

Music is intrinsically analog. When mastering was analog there was no question vinyl was better. I remember when CDs came out. I went to several high end shops that tried to sell me big money CD setups and they sounded horrible. I swore off digital anything for the next 25 years or so.

Now that everything has been digitally mastered for a long time it's unclear. Personally I like the sound of SACD (and DSD). It sounds like what I expect from vinyl. CDs can often sound great too. I think it mostly comes down to the quality of mastering. After that whatever media they create is going to be great or suck or somewhere in between based on how good the recording was. So try 'em all...

I’ll never forget the time when I listened to vinyl 98% of the time and CDs 2% of the time. I didn’t have the greatest set-up but had a Pioneer turntable with a Shure cartridge. I used an old mid-sixties Scott as a headphone amp, and I was happy. Not only happy but I used that set-up for ten years. Along comes Absolute Sound, and they had these Grado headphones advertised....it must have been 1997.

I strolled down to the stereo store to maybe order them and the over-the-top sales guy took me away from the front desk like he was high. Then he played Steely Dan on a 5.1 channel digital system. He was jumping around trying to show me how each instrument was local to the speaker, he kept asking me if I loved it, yet I had never heard such a cold mess made out of any music? And just think how much it costed too!

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Well now that vinyl is outselling CDs again and SACDs are on the comeback trail, who knows? Maybe we'll all have quadraphonic receivers next year