[tanfenton]

I think you should recheck your tracking force and alignment. What tools are you using?

NGF

 

[dsavitsk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadbang Man, it could be so great... For instance there is some distortion in the midrange of my vinyl set-up (very noticable on male voices) that I can't get rid of. I've balanced, aligned, tracked and levelled and made very possible adjustment a half dozen times, but I just can't get rid of it. Relatively small, but very noticable. It's exactly the same kind of distortion that made me get rid of my Pro-ject Debut. We're talking a whole new table and cartridge and I can't imagine it's my phono preamp (could it be?) adding the distortion, so I'm thinking this midrange/vocal distortion is caused by the wear and tear to the records.

I had a similar problem which was solved with new interconnects and speaker cable. Might be worth a try.

-d

 

[chadbang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanfenton I think you should recheck your tracking force and alignment. What tools are you using? NGF

I'm using a free alignment protractor available from Enjoythemusic. I actually just set the tracking force by guesstimation: Zeroing the tonearm and then using the tracking force adjustment on the arm to set the tracking weight. But I don't think it's the tracking force, because I've played with that a lot, varying the TF +/- a gram. Not much sucess. Tonight i completely reset the cartridge and basically wound up with the same results. I'm freakin baffled. But I do notice that the end of the last track on a record really suffers from distortion badly. I thought that would be an anti-skate problem, but I fussed around with that with minimal results. That led me to look that the azmuith. Here's I'm kinda stuck, since all I know how to do is eyeball it (and my eyes aren't that great anymore!). I even thought I spied the problem and jammed a little slip of paper between the cartridge and headshell to correct the azimuth, but even worse results. That's when I completely realigned the cartridge using the protractor and still I got bad distortion at the end of the disc and the same slight distortion throughout the middle of the record (the first track generally sings wonderfully). Man, I really need to lug this table to the next Head-fi meet and find someone who really knows what they're doing. Does anyone know any Head-fi vinyl freaks in eastern PA or central Jersey who might help me out? I know Hirsch could straighten out the table, but he's down in Maryland, I think.

 

[daycart1]

My first guess is that in this case the vinyl is damaged. Especially if it was purchased used, or ever played on bad equipment. But it wouldn't hurt to follow the suggestion to Deoxit the phono stage and cable connectors.

 

[immtbiker]

I have some new albums with surface noise and distortion in different ranges, and some older ones that are quiet, and distortion-free. It sounds like your media, or the recording.
Things you don't hear from the turntable using a speaker system, become annoyingly apparent with headphones. One simple solution would be to play the record on somebody else's system, then you can narrow down the possibilities.

 

[KurtW]

It sounds like an alignment problem, since it gets worse towards the center of the record. Alignment protractors usually set the optimal alignment near the center of the record, so each side of that won't be too far off. It sounds like it's being set somehow for the outside of the record instead. You might want to try playing around with this some more. Its not an antiskate problem, as slightly higher tracking force will compensate for this. And you've eliminated it being a tracking force problem as well. Also, azimuth issues will be across the entire record. Azimuth will affect the bass/treble balance but shouldn't cause distortion unless its way out of wack. A defective cartridge (more common than you might think) should be independant of the position of the record, but may show up on the loudly recorded passages. Often the loudly recorded passages happen towards the end of the record with classical music, but the records you mentioned should be okay in this regard.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtW It sounds like an alignment problem, since it gets worse towards the center of the record.

If this is the case, I have in the mail to me a Phono Cartridge Alignment Tool, $20, which I thought I would try out. Apparently it works as advertised.
$20...I'll give it a shot

http://www.turntablebasics.com/

Complete instructions are included.
They cover:
levelling the turntable
adjusting vertical tracking angle
calibrating and adjusting the tracking weight
setting overhang length
adjusting the tracking angle
checking and adjusting azimuth
Because some turntable models (i. e. Empire, Thorens, Luxman, VPI, Systemdek, Well Tempered, Sota, Music Hall) have larger spindles, this alignment tool is available with either a standard or oversized spindle hole.

 

[chadbang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtW It sounds like an alignment problem, since it gets worse towards the center of the record. Alignment protractors usually set the optimal alignment near the center of the record, so each side of that won't be too far off. It sounds like it's being set somehow for the outside of the record instead. You might want to try playing around with this some more. Its not an antiskate problem, as slightly higher tracking force will compensate for this. And you've eliminated it being a tracking force problem as well. Also, azimuth issues will be across the entire record. Azimuth will affect the bass/treble balance but shouldn't cause distortion unless its way out of wack. A defective cartridge (more common than you might think) should be independant of the position of the record, but may show up on the loudly recorded passages. Often the loudly recorded passages happen towards the end of the record with classical music, but the records you mentioned should be okay in this regard.

Everything you say makes perfect sense. Using the Thorens manual I double checked the overhang and the cartridge spacing on the headshell. That all checks out perfect. The only variable, which is where I'm "eyeballing" it, is aligning the cartridge perpendicular to the tonearm This is where I'm also using the enjoythemusic protractor. It seems like a decent tool, but eyeteeth's obviously looks better. That mirror would certainly help alot. It's really hard seeing what your doing at this scale. This is where I might be missing it. I really believe I've eliminated all the other factors (I put a brand new record on today, and I'm still beginning picking up distortion from about half way in, so it's not the record). And as you smartly note, Kurtw, that also eliminates the stylus and cartridge as the source of distortion (thank you Jezuz). And I also didn't know that about azimuth issues, so that was a great load off my mind, thanks Kurt! So I think, for now, I'll try to locate another alignment protractor and give it another shot.

 

[kentamcolin]

If your going to play vinyl seriously, a good record cleaning machine is a great investment. I recommend VPI 16.5, which will run $300-$350 used on audiogon, or $450-$500 new.

 

[marios_mar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadbang I'm using a free alignment protractor available from Enjoythemusic. I actually just set the tracking force by guesstimation: Zeroing the tonearm and then using the tracking force adjustment on the arm to set the tracking weight. But I don't think it's the tracking force, because I've played with that a lot, varying the TF +/- a gram. Not much sucess. Tonight i completely reset the cartridge and basically wound up with the same results. I'm freakin baffled. But I do notice that the end of the last track on a record really suffers from distortion badly. I thought that would be an anti-skate problem, but I fussed around with that with minimal results. That led me to look that the azmuith. Here's I'm kinda stuck, since all I know how to do is eyeball it (and my eyes aren't that great anymore!). I even thought I spied the problem and jammed a little slip of paper between the cartridge and headshell to correct the azimuth, but even worse results. That's when I completely realigned the cartridge using the protractor and still I got bad distortion at the end of the disc and the same slight distortion throughout the middle of the record (the first track generally sings wonderfully). Man, I really need to lug this table to the next Head-fi meet and find someone who really knows what they're doing. Does anyone know any Head-fi vinyl freaks in eastern PA or central Jersey who might help me out? I know Hirsch could straighten out the table, but he's down in Maryland, I think.

Is the Stylus ok?

Btw what is this 'Hail Satan' thing above your avatar ?

r

 

[drminky]

Hmm, distortion in the midrange.. You sure the record needle's clean? If you played a record to soon after cleaning it and didn't wait for it to thouroghly dry, it can cake dirt onto the needle that can be a pain to try and remove. Needle alignment could be an issue but I doubt it would be this bad unless it's WAY off, and I'm sure as long as your overhang is correct, and you've used that protractor correctly, you should be at least in the ballpark. It also could be caused by a marginal connection in your cartridge or tonearm wiring, but because you had similar trouble on the last player, I doubt it.

But by far, I'd say the most likely candidate is the phono preamp you are using. This would explain why you had the same problem on both players, and it also happens to be the weakest link in your chain (assuming your interconnects are okay). You have a fine turntable setup, it is a shame to put it through such a preamp. Normally, distortion associated with phono preamps happens with female vocals rather than with male, but with an inbuilt phono preamp in a reciever, I wouldn't be surprised where your distortion happens. Phono preamps are without a doubt the hardest type of amp to do really well because of; a) the wide range of input voltages/impedances they have to deal with; b) the massive dynamic range of vinyl and most importantly c) the HUGE amplification ratios in question (700x is fairly typical). The problem of overload clipping really pushes the boundries of solid state (some say only well implemented tube preamps can cope with overload effectively). The reciever's designers most likely treated that important part of the chain as an afterthought as few people would be trying to run vinyl through it.

I do sympathise with your problem with the WAF, though...you could try buying her something nice first?

 

[peterinvan]

Man, it could be so great...

Well, after playing with my new Thorens TD-125 and Clearaudio Aurum Beta-S cartridge for a few days I have seen the light. Yes, as all these vinyl guys have been saying, a good record and turntable can slay a cd player. I have two records, "Sinatra at the Sands" and "The Trinity Sessions" by the Cowboy Junkies - on Classic Records, that absolutely sound much better than their cd counterparts. The vinyl pressing of "Sinatra at the Sands" (which I've listened to a hundred times over the years) has a depth, imaging and spaciousness that kill both of my cd versions of that album. I couldn't believe it! I was very surprised to hear what so many have said, that vinyl can be better so much than digital. "The Trinity Sessions" on vinyl has the most amazing cymbals I've ever heard recorded, a delicious, delicate shimmer. Amazing. Yes, vinyl...

BUT...

Because these records have proven to me that vinyl can be so much better than cds, I find it very frustrating that vinyl also has so many flaws and drawbacks. For instance there is some distortion in the midrange of my vinyl set-up (very noticable on male voices) that I can't get rid of. I've balanced, aligned, tracked and levelled and made very possible adjustment a half dozen times, but I just can't get rid of it. Relatively small, but very noticable. It's exactly the same kind of distortion that made me get rid of my Pro-ject Debut. We're talking a whole new table and cartridge and I can't imagine it's my phono preamp (could it be?) adding the distortion, so I'm thinking this midrange/vocal distortion is caused by the wear and tear to the records. This get to the crux of the matter. The very organic nature of vinyl which makes it open to ruin. Pops, crackles and subtle distortion from wear. It's so frustrating to have a great sounding medium so open to disintegration (and that includes your stylus).

So right now my impressions of vinyl are: Yes, it's ultimate audiophile stuff but it can be a real pain to get right. *Sigh* I guess it's convenience vs quality. Same damn problem that seems to plauge every aspect modern life.

I attended a listening session at my local high end retailer, where they were demoing Wilson Shasha (?) speakers and very expensive turntables, pre amps, amps and connectors. I would guess $150,000 worth of gear.

I was curious to see what the best vinyl could sound like. There were about 15 vinyl lovers, and some brought their best demo records to hear.

My bias: I gave up vinyl and CD years ago when we downsized to a condo. I listen to Tidal streaming (on decent gear). I kept my mouth shut as I suspected I was in the minority.

I was amazed at the 5 minute ritual one goes through to clean the record, and the needle, and trying to drop the needle on the start of the demo track. Then I was distracted by the snap-crackle-pop on the first album. The retailer said it had been played 3 or 4 times, and to expect some snaps. Then he gave a 15 min talk on the efforts one has to go through to set up the cartridge and the tone arm.

The Wilsons sounded bright with great bass and overall SQ, but the retailer was playing at between 70 and 84 db (as per my iPhone app). I left after three tracks to avoid any further damage to my old ears.

 

[AnalogEuphoria]

I attended a listening session at my local high end retailer, where they were demoing Wilson Shasha (?) speakers and very expensive turntables, pre amps, amps and connectors. I would guess $150,000 worth of gear.

I was curious to see what the best vinyl could sound like. There were about 15 vinyl lovers, and some brought their best demo records to hear.

My bias: I gave up vinyl and CD years ago when we downsized to a condo. I listen to Tidal streaming (on decent gear). I kept my mouth shut as I suspected I was in the minority.

I was amazed at the 5 minute ritual one goes through to clean the record, and the needle, and trying to drop the needle on the start of the demo track. Then I was distracted by the snap-crackle-pop on the first album. The retailer said it had been played 3 or 4 times, and to expect some snaps. Then he gave a 15 min talk on the efforts one has to go through to set up the cartridge and the tone arm.

The Wilsons sounded bright with great bass and overall SQ, but the retailer was playing at between 70 and 84 db (as per my iPhone app). I left after three tracks to avoid any further damage to my old ears.

I don't think your going to be getting a response back this thread is 18 years old.

 

[Daniel Johnston]

I attended a listening session at my local high end retailer, where they were demoing Wilson Shasha (?) speakers and very expensive turntables, pre amps, amps and connectors. I would guess $150,000 worth of gear.

I was curious to see what the best vinyl could sound like. There were about 15 vinyl lovers, and some brought their best demo records to hear.

My bias: I gave up vinyl and CD years ago when we downsized to a condo. I listen to Tidal streaming (on decent gear). I kept my mouth shut as I suspected I was in the minority.

I was amazed at the 5 minute ritual one goes through to clean the record, and the needle, and trying to drop the needle on the start of the demo track. Then I was distracted by the snap-crackle-pop on the first album. The retailer said it had been played 3 or 4 times, and to expect some snaps. Then he gave a 15 min talk on the efforts one has to go through to set up the cartridge and the tone arm.

The Wilsons sounded bright with great bass and overall SQ, but the retailer was playing at between 70 and 84 db (as per my iPhone app). I left after three tracks to avoid any further damage to my old ears.

Holy necro of a thread!

Anyway. The ritual of playing vinyl often is part of the fun/mystique. A clean record on a nice TT setup is pretty amazing. I’ve heard Wilson speakers tend to be brighter. The volume levels are on par for reproduction of “live” sound.

The issue with streaming is the same with cable/satellite TV. Vast array of choices. Since everything is at your fingertips, the actual enjoyment of a single album from start to finish is often lost. The vinyl ritual forces you to listen to the album from start to finish as the artist intended.

YMMV

 

[RobertSM]

Shielded cables and a power conditioner are necessary in the modern day turn table setup.