[chadbang]

Man, it could be so great...

Well, after playing with my new Thorens TD-125 and Clearaudio Aurum Beta-S cartridge for a few days I have seen the light. Yes, as all these vinyl guys have been saying, a good record and turntable can slay a cd player. I have two records, "Sinatra at the Sands" and "The Trinity Sessions" by the Cowboy Junkies - on Classic Records, that absolutely sound much better than their cd counterparts. The vinyl pressing of "Sinatra at the Sands" (which I've listened to a hundred times over the years) has a depth, imaging and spaciousness that kill both of my cd versions of that album. I couldn't believe it! I was very surprised to hear what so many have said, that vinyl can be better so much than digital. "The Trinity Sessions" on vinyl has the most amazing cymbals I've ever heard recorded, a delicious, delicate shimmer. Amazing. Yes, vinyl...

BUT...

Because these records have proven to me that vinyl can be so much better than cds, I find it very frustrating that vinyl also has so many flaws and drawbacks. For instance there is some distortion in the midrange of my vinyl set-up (very noticable on male voices) that I can't get rid of. I've balanced, aligned, tracked and levelled and made very possible adjustment a half dozen times, but I just can't get rid of it. Relatively small, but very noticable. It's exactly the same kind of distortion that made me get rid of my Pro-ject Debut. We're talking a whole new table and cartridge and I can't imagine it's my phono preamp (could it be?) adding the distortion, so I'm thinking this midrange/vocal distortion is caused by the wear and tear to the records. This get to the crux of the matter. The very organic nature of vinyl which makes it open to ruin. Pops, crackles and subtle distortion from wear. It's so frustrating to have a great sounding medium so open to disintegration (and that includes your stylus).

So right now my impressions of vinyl are: Yes, it's ultimate audiophile stuff but it can be a real pain to get right. *Sigh* I guess it's convenience vs quality. Same damn problem that seems to plauge every aspect modern life.

 

[lini]

Admittedly, less availability of software, more maintainance, higher complexity of setup and less ease of use are the drawbacks of vinyl compared to cd playback - but midrange distortion?!? Hmmm, that doesn't sound right to me - alright, the entry level stock Stanton cartridge on my old TD280MkII might have some, but with a good cartridge... no, not really. There should be none. What phono stage and interconnect cables are you using?

Greetings from Hannover!

Manfred / lini

 

[hciman77]

Back in 1984 I bought my first (and last) reasonable quality Turntable a Rega Planar 3 with RB300 arm and Nagaoka Gold cartridge. While It was very nice sounding I had endless problems with noise, motor rumble, groove noise especially during quiet passages on classical recordings. I also noticed some distortion on voices but that coud have been the recordings. In the end it just drove me up the wall and I bought my first CD player that same year and have rarely played vinyl since.

Can Vinyl sound better than CD - I guess so but the media are so fragile, my heavily scratched CDs from 1984 mostly play ok still. CD is just less of a pain in the neck. The other thing I like about CD is that I can make backup copies to play in the Car. Apparently there were some car turntables early on but they never really caught on

 

[john_jcb]

The few phono stages I have heard really did have an impact on the sound, more than you would think. The ability of a phono stage to accurately follow the RIAA curve is key. If yours is off a bit in the midrange it may be the problem. Like you said though there are a lot of variables.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadbang there is some distortion in the midrange of my vinyl set-up (very noticable on male voices) that I can't get rid of.

That's just weird. Frequency extremes I understand but midrange.

My cheapy table/set up is not suffering from this. A little unorthodox, my table, cartridge & phonostage are similarly priced at about $400 each. I can hear limitations mainly when a lot of information is happening very quickly things congest/distort. But male voices are great as are those cymbals sounding like cymbals.
(FWIW Pro-Ject Xpression>Dynavector 10X5>Pro-Ject Phonobox SE>Simaudio preamp>Simaudio poweramp>ATC monitors).

Maybe it is the phonostage?

 

[Sovkiller]

Maybe is the LP, that is damaged, these are some of the inconvenineces of the LPs, the media is not durable enough, even if you take good care of it, it will get scratch, and will get damaged in one oway or the other with the use. My humble advice, and I do not want to begin a flame war now, but try to get better and better CD/SACD/DVD-A setups, and get rid ASAP, of the LPS and setup, while you can, once the performance of those were at the same level, nobody will be interested in those nostalgic analog setups......and they will be, sooner or later (if there are not already, some members prefer it to the analog setups, and ownig fantastic setups on both worlds) Maybe those two LPs were poorly remastered for the Cd version, unfortunatelly for you, but not all CDs are like that....

 

[Anders]

I am sorry but much point to the phono preamp. You changed turntable and cartridge and get "exactly the same kind of distortion". I also assume that you have used a CDP in the same chain without this distortion. Could be the cable but this seems less probable, maybe if it is the $1 cable you got with the phono preamp.
Phono preams can look tiny and of little importance but they amplify the signal very much. They have much more gain than a headphone amp.

There may be many years on this "new" TD125 and it can be rewarding to clean the cartridge clips and the output plugs with DeOxit or similar.

 

[chadbang]

Well, since I am hearing the same distortion I heard with the Pro-ject, maybe I should investigate the phono preamp. I just using the built-in phono preamp on my Harmon Kardon Citation preamp. Guess, I'll have to wait an experiment, though. My wife has declared martial law on audio equipment. Caught me looking at a Nitty Gritty machine last night and I got the smack down.

I guess I keep my eyes open for a Grado, Monolithic or McCormack phono preamp which were all recommended to me by Tuberoller. If anyone has one I could borrow for a couple days, that would be nice. Naw, I can't ask that. Just have to hold on.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadbang My wife has declared martial law on audio equipment. Caught me looking at a Nitty Gritty machine last night and I got the smack down.

Stealth?

Nah...hard to hide that. I just got the entry model a few weeks ago. My most expensive small vacum cleaner.

It works but also makes me laugh when I fire it up.

Quote:

I guess I keep my eyes open for a Grado, Monolithic or McCormack phono preamp which were all recommended to me by Tuberoller.

Why would you limit yourself to three makes? There must be many fine phono preamps not recommended by Tuberoller

I noticed a Musical fidelity model today for $150 at audiogon for example link

 

[KurtW]

If you take good care of LPs, there is no reason they should end up being scratched or damaged. I have some I bought 30 years ago and they still sound good. One thing to keep in mind though, you need to "rest" the grooves before playing them again. The cartridge has a tremendous force per area and will depress the vinyl grooves when played. However when left for a day the vinyl recovers back to normal. If you play the same track repeatedly you will limit its ability to recover.

 

[Jasper994]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtW If you take good care of LPs, there is no reason they should end up being scratched or damaged. I have some I bought 30 years ago and they still sound good. One thing to keep in mind though, you need to "rest" the grooves before playing them again. The cartridge has a tremendous force per area and will depress the vinyl grooves when played. However when left for a day the vinyl recovers back to normal. If you play the same track repeatedly you will limit its ability to recover.

Okay, that settles it, I'll never get a vinyl setup.... now records need to rest?!? sheesh!!!!

 

[ampgalore]

I want my music to pamper me, not the other way around.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ampgalore I want my music to pamper me, not the other way around.

It takes two to tango

Seriously, I've thought about this issue of effort and audio, which is a personal choice, and now consider the extra enjoyment worth the extra effort. (And I did work hard to earn the money to buy the hardware in the first place as well).

But I know what you mean. Sometimes I just want to press 'PLAY'.

 

[ampgalore]

With almost 1/3 of my CD collection stored as wav files on my harddrive, I am not even bothering using my CD changer much nowadays.

It's just so much more convenient, having your music collection at your fingertips. You can play any album with a few mouse clicks.

I have 3 cardboard boxes full of CDs. I am moving soon, so I am thinking about putting all my CDs into storage. I'll just take my external harddrive with me. Much less weight to carry around.

I can't imagine how much you have to carry with you with a vinyl collection.

 

[tyrion]

I just put together a real inexpensive vinyl set up using an old technics tt with a $40 shure cartridge. I am using the phono stage in my sunfire symphonic reference pre and I am really enjoying the music. This is with vinyl that is not in the best shape. There are some crackles here and there but I have to say there is something about the sound that sets it apart from a cdp. I am looking forward to getting my hands on better quality tt. If the music is good I don't mind getting up every 20 minutes or so to change sides. If I want convenience I use my computer > apple airport express > CI vda-1. I hope you find the answer to your problem.