[The Jester]

Are you sure Planar8 is/was offered with RB900? I have never came across this option here in States.
RB3000 looks delicious tho.

Not sure on that one, maybe an option for the P10 ?

 

[The Jester]

BTW guys…. Who makes turntables for Thorens?
Clearaudio made tt15 for Marantz, Levinson is made by VPI and almost all cheaper TT are made by same manufacturer in China. Funny how that works.

Swiss company with a TT history back to the 1920’s so I’m guessing in house up until the late 90’s when it became insolvent, assets bought up and moved to Germany after that,
The other way around with the Thorens TD150 being the design inspiration for the Linn LP12

 

[Quinto]

Ease of use was the main reason I bought this SL1200G .. also the stable pitch works great with solo piano recordings, which was a disaster on my previous TT

 

[FYFL]

Not sure on that one, maybe an option for the P10 ?

Older P9, yes. But that’s an older TT. I think it’s discontinued.

Ease of use was the main reason I bought this SL1200G .. also the stable pitch works great with solo piano recordings, which was a disaster on my previous TT

Nice. Reliable for years to come.

 

[FYFL]

Swiss company with a TT history back to the 1920’s so I’m guessing in house up until the late 90’s when it became insolvent, assets bought up and moved to Germany after that,
The other way around with the Thorens TD150 being the design inspiration for the Linn LP12

I’ll have to look into it. I read it somewhere that their lower priced turntables were made for them ….. not sure who was the manufacturer tho.

 

[Gil Schwartzman]

Instead of making a fresh thread, I figured I'd try asking here first. I'm looking to get a little bit more out of my records, hopefully someone can point me in the right direction for sensible upgrades. My current setup is a Denon DP-300F w/ an Ortofon Red cartridge and a U-Turn Pluto pre-amp. When I originally put this setup together, I was not overly pleased with it. For comparison my normal listening setup is Tidal/PC > Bifrost > Lyr 2 with most headphone listening done on RS2i and speakers are M-Audio BX8 monitors. Listening on vinyl was notably worse than just listening to my digital music. It lacked detail and clarity, everything just sort of felt flat.

I ended up moving this setup to my living room and integrating it into my Sonos setup. Given that the Sonos speakers are not quite as detailed and articulate as my office listening gear, I had hope that the difference between my records and digital music would be less noticeable. While the difference is less subtle, it's definitely not gone, digital is more lively and detailed that listening to a record.

My intent is to continue to use my records with my Sonos gear, so at this point all I'm trying to do is reach quality parity on that equipment. My current thought is to upgrade the cartridge from a red to a blue, since that's an easy drop-in upgrade, but my concern is that if there is a weak link elsewhere, I'm wasting money. I don't understand enough about how exactly records work to identify problem areas. Is my turntable insufficient? Does that have a meaningful impact on performance, or does that come more down to cartridge and pre-amp selection? Same question then for my pre-amp, is it of sufficient quality to do what I want it to, or should I have purchased something better there? Any advice is appreciated.

 

[simon740]

Hello,

what about this TT? My local HIFI store have one.

 

[FYFL]

Instead of making a fresh thread, I figured I'd try asking here first. I'm looking to get a little bit more out of my records, hopefully someone can point me in the right direction for sensible upgrades. My current setup is a Denon DP-300F w/ an Ortofon Red cartridge and a U-Turn Pluto pre-amp. When I originally put this setup together, I was not overly pleased with it. For comparison my normal listening setup is Tidal/PC > Bifrost > Lyr 2 with most headphone listening done on RS2i and speakers are M-Audio BX8 monitors. Listening on vinyl was notably worse than just listening to my digital music. It lacked detail and clarity, everything just sort of felt flat.

I ended up moving this setup to my living room and integrating it into my Sonos setup. Given that the Sonos speakers are not quite as detailed and articulate as my office listening gear, I had hope that the difference between my records and digital music would be less noticeable. While the difference is less subtle, it's definitely not gone, digital is more lively and detailed that listening to a record.

My intent is to continue to use my records with my Sonos gear, so at this point all I'm trying to do is reach quality parity on that equipment. My current thought is to upgrade the cartridge from a red to a blue, since that's an easy drop-in upgrade, but my concern is that if there is a weak link elsewhere, I'm wasting money. I don't understand enough about how exactly records work to identify problem areas. Is my turntable insufficient? Does that have a meaningful impact on performance, or does that come more down to cartridge and pre-amp selection? Same question then for my pre-amp, is it of sufficient quality to do what I want it to, or should I have purchased something better there? Any advice is appreciated.

Before investing any money on upgrades, I would check few things first.
Tracking force (1.8g recommended for red or blue)
Turntable level, VTA (vertical tracking angle), anti-skate etc.

Once that’s done and everything looks good, I would make sure your stylus and records are clean (even new records are not %100 clean. It’s normal).

And only then, think about making it better with either upgrades or alt TT rig.

If upgrades are the way you want to go with, I would start with replacing stylus for 2M Blue ( very nice cart on its own) since both Red and Blue are interchangeable. Retails for $200 tho. You can probably find it a lot cheaper during upcoming seasonal sales.
2nd. I’m not familiar with that phonostage at all. But I’m sure you can do better. I hear ppl praising Schiit and iFi Zen phonos. Worth a try given that you can return it if it doesn’t work in your system.

And lastly…… this is going to be a little harsh but I’m speaking from personal experience.

When it comes to vinyl, it’s really hard to bet on cheaper entry level turntables. It’s a hit and miss for many folks.
That’s why I always recommend to spurge substantially more now and save yourself headaches and upgrade expenses later.
Buying from places that know a thing or two about turntables is always a plus. Often they can check TT and set it up or correct anomalies for you at no cost. It’s not guaranteed tho. When I bought my Rega (not exactly budget TT) they supposedly setup it up and optimize it. It sounded like crap so I knew right of the bat that there’s more things going wrong than right. So, even those turntables that claimed that they have been factory setup and checked, sadly , don’t have too much faith in it. Check it yourself. Or have someone who knows what to look for.

Michael Framer (self proclaimed analog guru) reviewed iFi Zen phono on his website called AnalogPlanet. So perhaps that would be an option sometime in the future?

 

[FYFL]

Hello,

what about this TT? My local HIFI store have one.

Looks like it can sound very good.

 

[Gil Schwartzman]

Before investing any money on upgrades, I would check few things first.
Tracking force (1.8g recommended for red or blue)
Turntable level, VTA (vertical tracking angle), anti-skate etc.

Once that’s done and everything looks good, I would make sure your stylus and records are clean (even new records are not %100 clean. It’s normal).

And only then, think about making it better with either upgrades or alt TT rig.

If upgrades are the way you want to go with, I would start with replacing stylus for 2M Blue ( very nice cart on its own) since both Red and Blue are interchangeable. Retails for $200 tho. You can probably find it a lot cheaper during upcoming seasonal sales.
2nd. I’m not familiar with that phonostage at all. But I’m sure you can do better. I hear ppl praising Schiit and iFi Zen phonos. Worth a try given that you can return it if it doesn’t work in your system.

And lastly…… this is going to be a little harsh but I’m speaking from personal experience.

When it comes to vinyl, it’s really hard to bet on cheaper entry level turntables. It’s a hit and miss for many folks.
That’s why I always recommend to spurge substantially more now and save yourself headaches and upgrade expenses later.
Buying from places that know a thing or two about turntables is always a plus. Often they can check TT and set it up or correct anomalies for you at no cost. It’s not guaranteed tho. When I bought my Rega (not exactly budget TT) they supposedly setup it up and optimize it. It sounded like crap so I knew right of the bat that there’s more things going wrong than right. So, even those turntables that claimed that they have been factory setup and checked, sadly , don’t have too much faith in it. Check it yourself. Or have someone who knows what to look for.

Michael Framer (self proclaimed analog guru) reviewed iFi Zen phono on his website called AnalogPlanet. So perhaps that would be an option sometime in the future?

A lot of helpful advice here, thank you. I don't have anything to measure tracking force. It came fully set up. (EDIT: I did balance it per the included instructions, but I did not measure with a gauge). I guess I hadn't considered to check this. Is tracking force something that changes over time? Do I need to regularly monitor this? Same goes for your other recommendations, I've never checked these things, but I will be sure to. Out of curiosity, if any of these things are off, can it damage anything? Or just degrade quality?

As for cleaning, I have a brush that I use every time I start a record to free it of any lint and whatnot. Should I be doing something beyond this? Some kind of wet cleaning?

2M blue is something i've been eyeing for a while (years). If this is something that might get some BF discount, I can wait a little longer. As to the pre-amp, i've had it for years also, so definitely no returning it. When I bought it, Schiit didn't have one (or at least, if they did, not in my price range), or else I'd have gone that route for sure.

As to your last bit, definitely not harsh at all. I'm sure it's clear I have a lot to learn about this. I picked up a TT because it was en vogue and I thought they were cool. I knew enough to no go pick up a Crosley at Wal-Mart but obviously didn't learn as much as I should. I bought the Denon + Ortofon combo that TT Lab sells because it seemed to be a well reviewed combination with the features I wanted and came pre-configured.

 

[FYFL]

A lot of helpful advice here, thank you. I don't have anything to measure tracking force. It came fully set up. (EDIT: I did balance it per the included instructions, but I did not measure with a gauge). I guess I hadn't considered to check this. Is tracking force something that changes over time? Do I need to regularly monitor this? Same goes for your other recommendations, I've never checked these things, but I will be sure to. Out of curiosity, if any of these things are off, can it damage anything? Or just degrade quality?

As for cleaning, I have a brush that I use every time I start a record to free it of any lint and whatnot. Should I be doing something beyond this? Some kind of wet cleaning?

2M blue is something i've been eyeing for a while (years). If this is something that might get some BF discount, I can wait a little longer. As to the pre-amp, i've had it for years also, so definitely no returning it. When I bought it, Schiit didn't have one (or at least, if they did, not in my price range), or else I'd have gone that route for sure.

As to your last bit, definitely not harsh at all. I'm sure it's clear I have a lot to learn about this. I picked up a TT because it was en vogue and I thought they were cool. I knew enough to no go pick up a Crosley at Wal-Mart but obviously didn't learn as much as I should. I bought the Denon + Ortofon combo that TT Lab sells because it seemed to be a well reviewed combination with the features I wanted and came pre-configured.

Tracking force for Red or Blue is stated between 1.6g-2.0g with recommended 1.8g. More tracking force (say 2g) tracking will cause heavier bass that could outshine other frequencies. Not enough force, it might be bass shy. Recommended tracking force by manufacturer is approximate sweet spot. But you can always adjust that slightly to your personal taste. Going way above recommended tracking force could wear your records down as well as cantilever on your stylus.
Perhaps getting in touch with audiophiles in your area knowledgeable enough to help you out is a possibility? If so, I would go that route. Always great to know ppl that share your passion and can help you with issues you might have now and in the future.

I covered basic setup tools and cleaning previously in this thread.
There are some budget minded solution exactly with budget minded and new to the hobby folks like yourself. Just don’t be discouraged. That’s the number one reason why ppl are iffy about getting to vinyl or keeping vinyl setup.

2M Blue. You just need replacement stylus not the whole cartridge but I guess you already knew that. That would be a nice upgrade. Not night and day but noticeable nevertheless.

 

[Quinto]

My experience with turntables have been quite frustrating because I listen to solo piano records and my Dual CS(?) and Music Hall 9.1 were not up to it
Jazz sounded fine, although nowere near my current (way to expensive) vinyl set up..IMO it takes quite a budget to match your vinyl with your digital set up..
On the other hand, I'm a sucker for LP records and will never stream stuff, urghh

 

[The Jester]

So many variables in turntables, as you go up in price generally the platter gets heavier to increase the flywheel effect which can help with something like solo piano, even the stylus profile can have an effect due to different friction levels, combine the two and it’s enough to cause a “budget” turntable to “flutter” … short term speed changes that are most noticeable on solo instruments like the piano …
With the Denon / Ortofon setup I’d be looking more towards the preamp after checking tracking weight and cleaning the stylus, if you or anyone you know has a recent home theatre amp they’re starting to come with phono inputs just for a comparison …

 

[The Jester]

Been cleaning a few LP’s lately and got to one I hadn’t played in a while, so gave it a spin …. hmmm dull, flat, lifeless ? Odd …
Tried the CD version … dull, flat, lifeless … Lol
Can’t help the occasional poor recording ..

 

[FYFL]

Been cleaning a few LP’s lately and got to one I hadn’t played in a while, so gave it a spin …. hmmm dull, flat, lifeless ? Odd …
Tried the CD version … dull, flat, lifeless … Lol
Can’t help the occasional poor recording ..

Not all LPs are created equal.
Same with digital masters.

Speed stability is extremely important part of vinyl playback. Idlers/direct driver turntables are generally very good solution at reasonable cost. Belt driven TT have potential for isolating motor resonances but at lower price, suffer with speed accuracy that gets worst over time due to elasticity properties change of a rubber belt. Speed control box is helpful to keep speed accuracy at correct level but that’s not all that’s to it.
I don’t use rubber belt on my DIY TT, Instead I use plain fishing line that is replaced every few-several months. I also incorporate external power supply with speed adjustment for more accurate speed control.
Everything matters in turntable setup and architecture. It looks simple but it’s really NOT.