[mbphotox]

Got a Creek OBH-15 that had its power supply replaced when the original OBH-2 (linear PSU) died many years ago. The technician I had tasked with repairing it, simply gave me a horrible chinese walwart..
Shortly after that, I moved and had to put the turntable into storage for several years.

When I got my tube amp and turntable out again a couple weeks ago, I noticed horrible humming from the psu (not ground related, I tested everything there is to test, believe me!) and now I'm wondering if I should bite the bullet and get a proper lab PSU (laboratory grade 24V fixed DC output) for 90 USD or just sell the Creek and buy a Pro-Ject Phono Box DS2 instead?

(The Creek OBH-Uni is too expensive from ebay with customs and taxes, more so than the lab PSU.. and a proper linear hifi psu is 120-200USD equiv. so the lab PSU would be the "best deal for the buck")


I've got a Pro-Ject Perspective with Ortofon Rondo Red MC.

(At some point, when the cartridge dies, I'll probably get an AT 33PTG/II or a Grado Platinum 3...)


Question is:
Would the Pro-Ject Phono Box DS2 be much better noise-wise or would I run into the very same issue again, since it only has a walwart as well..

 

[]eep]

That's a hard question to answer. The OBH 15 is a very renowned phono. But it's pretty basic. Getting a decent 24V linear PS should not cost over $100. But then you'd still have a phono-amplifier that's under par when it comes to MC. You can do so much better. With your turntable (I have owned one too) and mc cartridge the Creek is really the weakest link. The phono preamp is a really underestimated component. And MC with 60dB gain is hard to keep quiet.

Pro-ject makes really good stuff for a very acceptable price that is hard to beat. Plus they have the quantum advantage. They have a large market share that allows them to invest in R&D. But to get everything out of MC you need better. They usually use opamps, but to get 60dB for MC you need a few and that makes the signal path complex which makes you lose naturalness and smoothness. It sounds strained and veiled.

However, if you look at my previous post, even with standard tubes, for the price... I compare that to the €2600 Gold Note PH10 I just bought, the EAR 834P is on the same level at 1/10 of the price. It's not as versatile and easy to use and it only has MM.

And again: I do not use the PH10's mc input because it is holding back my MC cartridges. Still. Even at this price. I use a transformer. Yes, I know I bought one 30 years ago, silver coils, very expensive (~€900 then) , and I still have it (actually I have 2 now). But it sounds more quiet (x-former doesn't make any noise) on MM, more open, more 3D. It's just another level.

So the best advice I can give for what you have to spend is: don't try to get a good mc capable phono. The real deal will cost you upwards from 4k. Instead, get one that is very good at MM. My Chinese clone cost me $250. That leaves you plenty for a nice MC x-former or a HO-MC (Hana).

Transformers are making a comeback. They just match great with mc's high ampere, low volt output. The amount of energy is the same. What is also great: they don't age, wear or lose value.

FYI, for a transformer all you need to know is the ratio ( no impedance numbers, those are very confusing). A 1:10 will do the job. A 1:14 is a very usable common value, 1:20 is a lot and might/will get you into trouble with high impedance cartridges.

If you want the formula: your cartridge impedance can not exceed 1/10 of 47k/ratio squared. Ex: 47k:14:14= 230 ohm. Your cartridge coils should be less than ~23 ohms. Your voltage will be 0.4Vx14=5.6V peak. That's a healthy output with an average MC on a 1:14 transformer.

 

[mbphotox]

That's a hard question to answer. The OBH 15 is a very renowned phono. But it's pretty basic. Getting a decent 24V linear PS should not cost over $100. But then you'd still have a phono-amplifier that's under par when it comes to MC. You can do so much better. With your turntable (I have owned one too) and mc cartridge the Creek is really the weakest link. The phono preamp is a really underestimated component. And MC with 60dB gain is hard to keep quiet.

Pro-ject makes really good stuff for a very acceptable price that is hard to beat. Plus they have the quantum advantage. They have a large market share that allows them to invest in R&D. But to get everything out of MC you need better. They usually use opamps, but to get 60dB for MC you need a few and that makes the signal path complex which makes you lose naturalness and smoothness. It sounds strained and veiled.

However, if you look at my previous post, even with standard tubes, for the price... I compare that to the €2600 Gold Note PH10 I just bought, the EAR 834P is on the same level at 1/10 of the price. It's not as versatile and easy to use and it only has MM.

And again: I do not use the PH10's mc input because it is holding back my MC cartridges. Still. Even at this price. I use a transformer. Yes, I know I bought one 30 years ago, silver coils, very expensive (~€900 then) , and I still have it (actually I have 2 now). But it sounds more quiet (x-former doesn't make any noise) on MM, more open, more 3D. It's just another level.

So the best advice I can give for what you have to spend is: don't try to get a good mc capable phono. The real deal will cost you upwards from 4k. Instead, get one that is very good at MM. My Chinese clone cost me $250. That leaves you plenty for a nice MC x-former or a HO-MC (Hana).

Transformers are making a comeback. They just match great with mc's high ampere, low volt output. The amount of energy is the same. What is also great: they don't age, wear or lose value.

FYI, for a transformer all you need to know is the ratio ( no impedance numbers, those are very confusing). A 1:10 will do the job. A 1:14 is a very usable common value, 1:20 is a lot and might/will get you into trouble with high impedance cartridges.

If you want the formula: your cartridge impedance can not exceed 1/10 of 47k/ratio squared. Ex: 47k:14:14= 230 ohm. Your cartridge coils should be less than ~23 ohms. Your voltage will be 0.4Vx14=5.6V peak. That's a healthy output with an average MC on a 1:14 transformer.

Looks like I've missed out on all my music for so many years without ever actually feeling like I missed anything.

Thanks for the detailed answer, but I'll continue to hold my MC back, then, no matter how unnatural and strained it will sound.

I really only care about the noise from the power supply, to be honest.

the phono box ds2 was an idea bc it provides greater freedom to experiment with settings and cartridges. (e.g. the 1mV or even 5mV Grados as opposed to my current 0.3mV Ortofon)

 

[]eep]

I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong. I'm just trying to give you my best advice of over 40 years experience. I'm trying to help you. Even when you dump your question in a totally different topic.

Just buy a new power supply and be done with it. I don't care if you don't want to know and bury your head in the sand. If you think fighting hum is all there is to better sound. Ok.

Now do you have anything constructive to share instead of asking questions you don't want an answer to? New vinyl issue? A review of a great new record? Please share.

 

[mbphotox]

I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong. I'm just trying to give you my best advice of over 40 years experience. I'm trying to help you. Even when you dump your question in a totally different topic.

Just buy a new power supply and be done with it. I don't care if you don't want to know and bury your head in the sand. If you think fighting hum is all there is to better sound. Ok.

Now do you have anything constructive to share instead of asking questions you don't want an answer to? New vinyl issue? A review of a great new record? Please share.

What's wrong with this thread? It's about vinyl, gear, and experiences, no?

Anyways, you lost me when you claimed that thousands of dollars are required to get proper sound out of MC cartridges, because I've never read that anywhere else, ever, before.
Not even those high end audiophile reviewers who own Transrotor turntables with Accuphase/McIntosh/Krell, etc. hardware support that..

If you can support your 40 years of experience with scientific explanations as to why a properly functioning MC preamplifier for 400 bucks shouldn't be able to do what it was designed to do - amplify a signal, I'll readily change my mind.


I believe in speaker sound, room acoustics.. I believe in bad/good recordings/masterings.. I even believe ears/hearing getting significantly and measurably worse with age.

I believe in the deficiencies of tube amplifiers and how they "colour" or "modify" sound.

I have seen good cartridges with horrible frequency response (boosting treble by several dB, or dropping it entirely)


But I cannot believe that no company can make a sub-1000$ phono preamp that succeeds at not clipping, not distorting, and not adding audible noise...

 

[]eep]

What's wrong? You. You don't want to read. Perle für die Schweine.

I gave you good advice on a comparable budget while you get hung up on a fictitious price.

I'm all in favor of mc cartridges. One of the first upgrades I ever did was getting a high-output mc. Only much later I finally upgraded to low-output mc, an AT-OC9. At that time I already had a tube amp with a very good MM phono input. To solve this problem I bought a matching transformer. It was way above e my budget. But that is now very relative since I still use and fiercely enjoy it.

When they dropped that tube amp during transport for maintenance I was very upset. It was total loss. So I was offered another one without phono. I then had to get a seperate phono. All I could find that was somewhat affordable and supposedly very good was a Musical Fidelity X-LP. The can. Comparable to Creek OBH 15.

That is how I learned this lesson that I am trying to give you for free. While it sounded OK on MM, it sounded nothing, nothing like what I was used to on MC. I was really fortunate to still have that transformer. That really saved the day.

Since then I only upgraded once, and just recently now I finally have some money to spend to Gold Note. I know what it's like to live on €25 a week. That's why I have years of hands-on experience soldering phono-amps. Studying schematics, changing them, listening rinse and repeat. Phono-amps, dacs, amps, speakers.
If that is not scientific enough for you maybe you should tell me what you ever soldered?

I bought a Chinese Jolida 'tubed' phono from a friend for €250. It wasn't a tube phono amplifier, it only has a buffer stage. I have studied it, changed it, modified it. Changed the opamps, voltage, caps, cables, grounding and PS parts. Untill I understood it. The more amplification you demand of the opamps, the worse it sounds. And the buffer stage did nothing but add noise.

I took out the tubes and a pair of opamps. I took me years to get it where it is now. And I decided to forget about MC. It always sounds sub-optimal. The MM however is magnificent.

That's how I know that you will not get a good MC phono on a budget. I have modified several phono amps already. You can get a good one if you stick to MM. But so are tube phono's, if you chose a real one. The last one I bought (EAR) is a prime example. And the one before that (Klimo) with minor mods. Absolutely silent and no distortion. Not even with my ear on the tweeter.

I am a fan of MC cartridges. But it's a real waste of money without the proper amplification.

I will bet you that my latest EAR 834P clone with a €10 cartridge (Rega carbon, AT OEM) will beat your MC with any budget phono. I know, because I have several of them, including upgraded styli. And I have several budget phono-amps.

But hey, you can put your fingers in your ears and go 'la la la la la la la' when I say 4000 or tubes. Maybe a better advice would be: go ask your question on Audio Science Review. Since you seem to know better.

 

[]eep]

Remember how I complained about the new Yello 'special collectors edition' reissues? They are really expensive. Or were. About €70-90 really takes the fun out of it, for just the original lp plus a colored 12".
I only have 2 originals; an lp and a 12". I remember they were always full price and I didn't have money to waste. So weird 'n wacky Swiss music wasn't on top of my list.

It seems prices have come down. I was surprised to see them for just €25. I thought they were just the album. Which is perfectly fine for me. To my surprise I just picked this up from the depot.

Oh yeah! I love you.

I wonder why they never got a Grammy for most original song titles...

I will tell you the rest after playing some.

Edit: I played the first 12". It sounds awesome. This is great music to demonstrate your setup. That's a nice way of saying that the music is boring. Like is very often the case with 12" extended versions. Less is more. More is bore.

The vinyl is not flawless but generally very good. And I heard something I haven't heard on a modern record since the 50-ies. The chugging of the lathe servo pushing the chisel across in the runout groove. Weird. It's not a problem, just weird. And some dirt in the vinyl right at the end before the runout. Otherwise the vinyl is very quiet.

 

[]eep]

Time for an update. Since I modded the EAR 834P I thought I had it all figured out... Err. No.

I switched some cables to play this Hope Sandoval record.

It sounded great. But what is that distortion? You recognize that? With Cd's it's just: yeah, this is what it sounds like. No better, no worse. But with vinyl I am always on high alert. Well, not high strung, but aware. I notice when things aren't right. And when it is right I'm just floating off.

Anyway. I wanted to enjoy my tubes in stereo. And I heard distortion. When there was bass. Yeah, I know. I was following the schematic and the specs. Not my intuition. The schematic said ECC83 , ECC83 and ECC82. And I got distortion. So I changed it back to 82>83>83. Meaning, start slowly and bump it up later. The first ECC83 overloaded the whole chain causing over modulation.

So I changed it back to what I did in the first place. And there it was. This record is, really good. This music is very relaxed and simple. But you can just hear it's a small studio. And the music comes to life. Suddenly the whole universe flows into one.

That EAR 834 clone really is a sleeper.

PS: Oh, and I got me some Chinese cables. Van den Hul clones for €20. I own some genuine too to compare on my other arm. You may call them 'fake' all day long but the quality is just the same at 10% of the price. I replaced a stiff expensive Cardas for it and it sounds better. Shielding is great. I hear no hum with my ear the speaker.

 

[]eep]

Do you recognize this? The record you really wanted. When you are looking through your collection it turns out you already bought it...? Looking at the Permostat sticker which has not been available anymore for a while now, I've had it for years. So now I have two: the original ( 2012 re-issue) and the special edition.

 

[MisterMudd]

Do you recognize this? The record you really wanted. When you are looking through your collection it turns out you already bought it...? Looking at the Permostat sticker which has not been available anymore for a while now, I've had it for years. So now I have two: the original ( 2012 re-issue) and the special edition.

Lol. Yes I do! Just did the same thing with ELO's Discovery album. My problem could be age and/or my collection has grown to the point of not remembering everything I own. I've even had 2 different vinyl's of the same record and STILL went and bought the CD!!! Thanks for that laugh. I'm not alone.

 

[]eep]

I think it's more down to making a mental note like a shopping list and then not being able to erase it. So when you enter a store you know what to get and what you want but not remembering you already did buy it.

It's like squirrel programming. Go nuts!

What also doesn't help is different formats. I remember I have the cd because the lp ws impossible to get when it came out. So I want it on lp. That's why I bought this one double.

Hey, I saw a Jon Anderson album at my goodwill store. You can't get that on cd. But I bought my LP new years ago and it's still in good condition.

 

[iFi audio]

Do you recognize this? The record you really wanted. When you are looking through your collection it turns out you already bought it...? Looking at the Permostat sticker which has not been available anymore for a while now, I've had it for years. So now I have two: the original ( 2012 re-issue) and the special edition.

This is one awesome album and it had a major impact on me when I was a youngster. RIP Keith Flint.

 

[]eep]

Yes, one of the best albums of the nineties when music was still booming and innovative. Since then it's all been downhill in the music industry. More of the same and repetitive computer generated crap. With some exceptions.

I just bought another classic I didn't have yet. If this is your favorite from growing up, you're old . This also defines an era. Most songs are standard hippy fare, one blues song but two songs stand out. And made Grace Slick the voice of the decade. Two songs that each defined a topic of the time, 'Don't you want somebody to love' for free love and 'White Rabbit' for free drugs. And so went Alice down the rabbithole.

What is funny, two iconic albums come together in the most influential, iconic and defining movie for the end of an Era, turning point of consciousness: The Matrix. After that came 911 and WMD' s that were never found and the white rabbit and the red pill took flight in the way Jefferson Airplane never saw coming. "All it does is show you the truth".

Surrealistic pillow is just a cushion to let you forget reality, no need to chase those white rabbits... And it does so very nicely. Nostalgic music for sweet dreams. Not all popular music from the sixties is worth remembering but this one certainly is.

It is just a plain original cover with a lined white paper inner sleeve. The labels are original RCA 'Living Stereo'. Only on the back shows its modern 2017 reissue. The pressing is very good. So is the sound. It is an old recording so it's a bIt left-right. I guess it's sourced from a digital master by the sound of it. It's quiet and smooth. I was looking for the mono version with the vintage direct and dynamic analog sound, but this is also good. A mono with wimpy smooth digital sound would be disappointing.

What is also nice is that I payed only €19 for it which is a very decent price these days. Simple but well done, I give it a 4 star overall. The music of course is a 5 star must have.

 

[]eep]

I finally decided to buy box number 4 of the Kate Bush Remaster series. I wasn't sure about it because it's a collection of 'fillers', extended versions, B-Sides and loose ends.

It isn't cheap either. But as a long time fan of hers, it's also a collection of 'things I didn't have' as I normally only buy full albums. And I've been a fan ever since 'Never forever' from 1980. What should have been my first lp, Kim Wilde prevented that but never had the same longevity, maybe that's why she turned to gardening. Yeah, it's a long time ago when my first crush told me she liked Kate Bush, so I started listening, and of course I liked it too. But my love for Kate Bush has lasted a lot longer. For a long time I thought it was just my history but she is unique and world class.

It's a nice sturdy box where the 4 albums slide out. Nice lined black inner sleeves and seperate outer sleeves for each lp. The vinyl is nice thick 180 grams. Not totally silent but good enough not to be disturbing the music.

The first record I played was the 12" versions and it started with 'Running up that hill' of recent 'Stranger Things' fame. What a great way to start. All songs were actually from 'Hounds of love', my favorite album. Extended versions can be very boring and stretched out. But none of these were repetitive or boring.
After that I played 'in others words' where she does covers, which she normally never does. But she does make them special.

So far this set is much nicer than I thought. Why did I wait so long to buy this? It's really good. And completes my collection. This is not so much 'the other side' of singles but the other side of Kate Bush. Do I recommend it? I'm too biased so I leave it to you.

 

[]eep]

Here a news update on cartridges. Not 1, not 2, not 3 not 4 ... I lost count but a full dozen new Chinese MC cartridges have arrived on the market. I have not found any brand or manufacturer so 'OEM' is all I can say. A lot of manufacturing has already transfered to China over the years. So it's not surprising they are seeping out through different channels. Of course boutique cartridge manufacturers do not want to disclose where they placed their production. Of course it's always 'in house by our specialized craftsmen'. That's all fine and understandable.

But not everybody can afford those boutique prices. I have to insert here that Audio Technica as a long time surviver still makes affordable MC cartridges. And since vinyl is booming, so is the market for equipment. But with a bigger market you would assume production prices come down. Right? Well, not that I noticed. But there's that strange mechanism in market capitalism called competition. Ok, let's not get tangential here...

I have already seen cartridges from China by LP-Audio, Jasmine and Excsoni. I won't mention their western brand names. But 1 look and you know they are exactly the same at half the price. Which is normal because you need to flip the price over 120% to make a profit with all the overhead. But that doesn't benefit the costumer much.

So last week I saw a whole slew of new cartridges appear on AliExpress. Some might say 'hey that's a direct copy of...' . Sure. So what? Go buy the original then. The technology is over a hundred years old. I made a screenshot so you can see the whole range. Prices are in Euros including 21% VAT.

As you can see you can get a very nice MC cartridge for a decent price here.

They use real materials, no plastic. Aluminum, carbon fiber, ebony, rosewood, 6N copper wires, even sterling silver. The cantilevers are alu tube on the cheapest, Titanium, boron, ceramic and sapphire. The styli vary from elliptical to super elliptical to Shibata.

I couldn't resist and bought one; rosewood with no front yoke, silver wire, Ti cantilever and super elliptical stylus for 300 ex VAT.


PS: it's a screenshot of part of the shop, they sell other western brands too, or Japanese, the 2nd bottom row is the first Chinese MC that came on the market. The LP-audio MC80H that did establish the brand. I have a much more expensive Ruby II and I'm really satisfied with it.

Link for anyone interested
Strange the link redirects to the front page. Just search for mc cartridge and you'll find "speed tops store". They sell a lot of speaker drivers, tubes, parts etc.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...33780edaa9!12000035151433949!sh!NL!2248664979