[rb2013]

 
 

OK here is the layout:
 
Back End:

 
 
1) Singxer F-1
2) iFi iPur2
3) Stock Recovery 6in USB cable
4) W4S Recovery
5) DC iPur
6) 2G Split Cable
7) DC cable from DC-30W LPS (powers the Recovery and F-1)
 
Front End:
 

 

1) MEIYAN 24VDC 11uv LPS
2) Startech REX
2) Startech LEX
4) TeraDak X1/X2 LPS (powers LEX by 2G Split USB Cable Power Leg plugged in back)
5) Jitterbug goes to PC Music Server USB port (modded to USB VBUS blocker)
6)2G split USB cable - Data Leg
7) BJC Ethernet CAT6 cable (connects REX and LEX only)
8)2G Split USB Head
 
Front End Detail:

1) USB 256GB PNY Sticks (Three)
2) Jitterbug goes to USB Data leg to feed Recovery (Modded to VBUS Blocker)
 

1) 2G USB Head from PC
2)BJC Ethernet CAT6 (connects REX and LEX only)
3) Teddy Pardo Silver DC cable (connects to MEIYAN to power REX)
4)Other end of 2.

 

[rb2013]

First, Rob, congratulations on your be digital discovery. Absolutely fascinating.

I'm curious, where would the Startech USB device be connected in a chain which included a Rednet D16? I'm probably missing something obvious.

Thanks for your great work.

Joel

Hi Joel,
 
Thanks for the kind words - I knew this thread would be the most challenging of all!
 
So to your question - there is no Rednet in the equation.  The Startech boxes act as USB packet to IP packet translators (LEX) then IP packet back to USB (REX).  This achieves complete galvanic isolation.  But more I believe the reconstructed USB data stream has vastly improved signal intergrity, complete removal of all PHY USB noise from the PC, better control over USB impedence, the ability to power the 'clean' side of the post Ethernet USB by low noise linear power.  Additionally the ability to do the music file storage conversion in a clean environment, before sending back to the CPU for audio player processing.
 
But like AOIP Rednet gear can work over GB LAN swtiches in a network.

 

[joelha]

 
Hi Joel,
 
Thanks for the kind words - I knew this thread would be the most challenging of all!
 
So to your question - there is no Rednet in the equation.  The Startech boxes act as USB packet to IP packet translators (LEX) then IP packet back to USB (REX).  This achieves complete galvanic isolation.  But more I believe the reconstructed USB data stream has vastly improved signal intergrity, complete removal of all PHY USB noise from the PC, better control over USB impedence, the ability to power the 'clean' side of the post Ethernet USB by low noise linear power.  Additionally the ability to do the music file storage conversion in a clean environment, before sending back to the CPU for audio player processing.
 
But like AOIP Rednet gear can work over GB LAN swtiches in a network.

Thanks for the quick reply, Rob.
 
I understood that the Rednet devices weren't part of the original equation.
 
But I thought in a recent message you mentioned that someone had asked you if it was possible to use the Startech USB storage solution in combination with a Rednet device.
 
If so, I was just wondering how that would work in terms of what gets connected to what.
 
But maybe I misunderstood.
 
Joel

 

[rb2013]

So this would be a good point to reintroduce the Youtube video clip from PS Audio's Paul McGowan - where we all got this Startech (ICRON) idea from.  This was prior to their launching the PS Audio LANRover:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQjJke5uM2g
 
They subseqently launched their version of this for $599 http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/the-lanrover/
 
Note it has only one USB slot - so could not be used for USB stick storage and playback:

 
It also uses a ICRON ASIC chip versus the Xilinx SPARTAN 6 FPGA.  And I believe they no long make the FPGA version.  Startech relabled it, but the OEM was ICRON.
 
This is the new ICRON Ranger with the ASIC chip:
https://www.icronshop.com/icron-brand/icron-ranger-2304ge-lan
 
Be careful as their are numerous ICRON made versions and the labeling terminology is quite confusing.

 

[rb2013]

  Thanks for the quick reply, Rob.
 
I understood that the Rednet devices weren't part of the original equation.
 
But I thought in a recent message you mentioned that someone had asked you if it was possible to use the Startech USB storage solution in combination with a Rednet device.
 
If so, I was just wondering how that would work in terms of what gets connected to what.
 
But maybe I misunderstood.
 
Joel

Yes that would be possible  - but I did not get to try that.  The Startech would connect by USB to the PC and the Rednet by Ethernet directly to the PC.  So both could work together - the Startech soley for USB storage (and would now have 4 empty USB slots).

 

[somestranger26]

I'm interested in how your chain would compare to the Rednet without Fidelizer, usb sticks, etc. I use my computer for way more than just music, and am not willing to go to such great lengths to optimize the computer's power supply. That was one of the biggest draws of AoIP for me.
 
I also don't see why the USB stick would sound any better than full file buffering in Foobar (with an SSD). Either way, the file has to be read by the CPU and put into memory.

 

[joelha]

 
Yes that would be possible  - but I did not get to try that.  The Startech would connect by USB to the PC and the Rednet by Ethernet directly to the PC.  So both could work together - the Startech soley for USB storage (and would now have 4 empty USB slots).

Well, Rob. I was right about one thing. It was obvious. 

 
Thanks a lot. I'll be following this thread with a lot of interest.
 
Did you ever give thought to trying to move the OS drive out of the PC enclosure and somehow place it into a separate connected chain of devices?
 
Joel

 

[rb2013]

  I'm interested in how your chain would compare to the Rednet without Fidelizer, usb sticks, etc. I use my computer for way more than just music, and am not willing to go to such great lengths to optimize the computer's power supply. That was one of the biggest draws of AoIP for me.
 
I also don't see why the USB stick would sound any better than full file buffering in Foobar (with an SSD). Either way, the file has to be read by the CPU and put into memory.

Those are great questions.  When I originally compared the Startech USB Chain (I called the Uber USB chain), (sans Fidel, the MEIYAN, and USB sticks) I preferred the Rednet 3, esp with the Mutec and Antelope.  I found myself after a few months losing interest in the sound.  At the time I was modding the BURL B2B DAC as well.
 
As I mentioned the AOIP from the Rednet 3 was very good, but I noticed a 'sterile' quality to it.  Now this may just be on my system.  Moving to the BURL was better in the clinical quality of the sound, but worse in terms of tonal density.  Of course a well made tube DAC, esp R2R multi-bit ones, are know for that (especially with the best NOS tubes).  So I started to revisit the Uber USB chain, and I did miss some of what the Rednet AOIP did - especially in the bass department - one of AOIP's greatest strengths.  But I found a closer emotional connection to the music.
 
At this level of audio - things get complicated.  The difference between better and different.  Or even more complicated some things gained and others lost.
 
The MEIYAN did make a difference on the REX.  But also a few other tweeks - like removing the Curious 200mm cable between the Recovery and the iPur2:


Crazy as it may sound I much preferred the stock Recovery cable.
 
Also replacing the Forza Audio split copper USB cable on the PC side (Front end) with a LH Labs 2G also improved things, now the USB Uber was getting closer.  And the emotional connection was there!  In spades.  I attribute this to greater tonal density.

Then came the Shazam (great Andriod app btw) moment!  The use of these USB sticks - esp the PNY 256GB ones.  Whoa!  Dynamics just over the top - but they needed burnin.  And after 100hrs got even better.  Now the USB Uber chain had leaped over the best of AOIP - and became the Ultra USB chain. 
 
Bass as good or better then AOIP.  Dynamics incomparable, air, transparency, detail at a whole other level.
 
Fidelizer and the replacing of the Music Server HDD with a SDD (best $39 investment ever) - just put this whole source way past the old.
 
But I really wanted to be sure, to live with this new sound for awhile - the more I listened the more impressed I became.  I found myself saying repeatedly - I NEVER heard that before - even with the Rednet/Mutec/Antelope AOIP stack.  I have to sum it up - as revelatory.  It has changed the way I listen to music - which I found impossible to believe.  But what a ridiculous chain!  I tried to simplify it  - no go - every attempt diminished the magic.  My last 'experiment' was to try and replace the Recovery/DC iPur/TeraDak DC-30S with a RCore LT3042 (.8uv near sota) LPS.  It was good - but not as good as before.
 
So that's where I'm at now - and will gladly remain here for quite some time.  The reward from this insane 2 year quest is gold - sonic gold - and despite all the trial and error well worth it.  I don't recommend anyone else remotely attempt this.  But I had to share it.  Like I said before I would characterize this as one of the greatest audio advancements I have heard in 30 yrs.
 
Cheers!

 

[rb2013]

  Well, Rob. I was right about one thing. It was obvious. 

 
Thanks a lot. I'll be following this thread with a lot of interest.
 
Did you ever give thought to trying to move the OS drive out of the PC enclosure and somehow place it into a separate connected chain of devices?
 
Joel

Good suggestion  but no.  I did toy with the idea of running the OS from one of the sticks...hmmm  Don't get me started!
 
Ok a couple of things that could be explored:
 
1) Different USB sticks (once the price of the 512GB come down I will upgade the three and double my storage)  I paid a total of $120 for all three PNY sticks at Bestbuy.
2)F-1 mods - remove the DCtoDC MornSun converter and power the 5VDC and 3.3VDC with separate LPS.  This was discussed near the end of the now closed XU208 thread.
3)Try a different DDC like the XU216 DIYinHK Pro3z.
4) Additional Ethernet GI isolation - like a GISO or FMC inbetween - maybe even a Corning optical Ethernet cable
5)Marcel at JCAT has offered to send me the new JCAT USB Card FEMTO. Not sure how this would help but...
http://jplay.eu/jcat/
6)Super Secret - a new Super USB gizmo is in the works.  Can't divulge details but it sounds like it would be terrific.
7)Well if the Lotto numbers come in a Uptone JS-2 LPS to feed the REX and LEX and a LPS-1 to feed the F-1.  When's the next drawing?
 
But really I'm good for now - totally happy place.

 

[somestranger26]

 
4) Additional Ethernet GI isolation - like a GISO or FMC inbetween - maybe even a Corning optical Ethernet cable

They have a more expensive USB extender that uses fiber 

http://www.icron.com/products/icron-brand/usb-extenders/fiber/usb-3-0-spectra-3022/

 

[rb2013]

They have a more expensive USB extender that uses fiber :evil: http://www.icron.com/products/icron-brand/usb-extenders/fiber/usb-3-0-spectra-3022/

Hurt me baby, make me write bad checks. One other upgrade would be to use those marvelous Cerious Tech Graphene power cords on the three separate LPS's. I did that, well at two on the Rednet/Mutec/Antelope AOIP stack. But at $250 each that's a lot of dash - $750. Might as well spend a bit extra and get a $1000 JS-2 LPS.

I guess one could also try a Mutec MC-3+ USB as a SPDIF reclocker, maybe add a 10Mhz Rubidium clock on it as ext wClock. I did try the new iFi SPDIF reclocker. Not good, esp powered by a SMPS iPower.

I would note SPDIF coax cables are critical for best results. I tried a few, the Audio Sensibilities Silver Statement 1.5M digital RCA, the Audience au24Se digital RCA 1M, and the Synergistic Research Element Copper 1M digital RCA with the new UEF tuning plugs, and the upgraded Galileo MPC active shield energizer.

The SR was by far the best, actuallt the Audience was very good too - both excelled over the AS Statement. No slouch of a digital cord (I have listed for sale in the classifieds). I got the SR as a demo from a dealer on Audiogon for a crazy good price.

It was also my favorite on the AOIP stack, but the differences here on tnis USB chain were much more noticeable. Esp the tonal richness, clarity and transparency.

 

[Coilfield]

Many thanks to Rob2013.  I have followed all your posts with great enthusiasm.  Time to say thanks for all your work.
I use a Gustard U12 and Lite dac 60.
I look forward to full upgrades to the Lite dac.  I've read your forum at least 3 times.
I've taken to heart your recommendations on sensitive digital isolation.  I just upgraded to 3 separate digital ps filters and OCC power cords.
This is what is on my radar. It's an SD card player.
I'd be interested in your opinion?
 
https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/aune-x5s-24bit-192k-hifi-dsd-asynchronous-ditital-player.html
 
I currently use Server 2012 with 15 processes running.
Thanks for the great lay out pics.  This makes it much easier to understand.
 
Cheers and a Merry Christmas to you,
Frank

 

[Paulkouhan]

Hi Bob,
 
Thanks for sharing your experiments and findings.
I wish I had more time to do my own experiments...
 
I have some questions about your ratings of the Singxer :
1)
Is the main difference between
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2    145
and
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB   170
that the music is stored on isolated usb flash drives (instead of HDD)
The Startech is out of budget for me, did you try using your flash drives with a powered USB hub (data USB cable from the computer only)
 
Did you try an USB galvanic Isolator like this one ?
http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/en/product/1165503/?insert=62&insertNoDeeplink&productname=CESYS-Cesys
 

2) What are the differences between
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB   170
and
Ultra USB chain (details to long to list)      370
 
 
SSD drive + cables + ... ?
 
I want to try to get the best from my NUC+ssd+LPS / Recovery + LPS / iPur2 / Singxer. My next try will be the USB flash drive. ( I dont believe in cables ...)
 
 
 


Cheers
 
David

 

[rb2013]

  I also don't see why the USB stick would sound any better than full file buffering in Foobar (with an SSD). Either way, the file has to be read by the CPU and put into memory.

In my reply I didn't answer this part your question - so see below.
 

  Many thanks to Rob2013.  I have followed all your posts with great enthusiasm.  Time to say thanks for all your work.
I use a Gustard U12 and Lite dac 60.
I look forward to full upgrades to the Lite dac.  I've read your forum at least 3 times.
I've taken to heart your recommendations on sensitive digital isolation.  I just upgraded to 3 separate digital ps filters and OCC power cords.
This is what is on my radar. It's an SD card player.
I'd be interested in your opinion?
 
https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/aune-x5s-24bit-192k-hifi-dsd-asynchronous-ditital-player.html
 
I currently use Server 2012 with 15 processes running.
Thanks for the great lay out pics.  This makes it much easier to understand.
 
Cheers and a Merry Christmas to you,
Frank

Hi Frank - Thanks for the Kudos!  Good luck on the DAC60 project - you where lucky to get one.  They are almost impossible to find now.  I wonder about the Startech GB LAN USB Ethernet extenders as well - the ones with the SPARTAN 6 FPGA.  As it looks like ICRON has moved away to their custom ASIC (to lower the costs).  I guess the SPARTAN 6 has greater processing power.  But more jitter?  Maybe the ASIC version is even better?  Doubt it.
 
The SD card player is interesting  but I have a couple of issues:
 
1) As I understand it USB Flash drives (sticks) are unique in that they have on board 3.3VDC regulators
2) Storage limitation to just one card.  Just a 500GB PNY SD card costs $200.  I paid $120 for all three 256GB USB sticks for a total of 750GB of storage.
3) Storage flexibility - Each 256GB USB stick has it's own drive letter and in Windows acts as any normal SSD/HDD drive/partition.  But you can ALSO have additional SSD or HDD in the server - totally flexible.
4) Limitation on the 'Back End' of the chain - that is you only have the choice of analog output (with lower SQ opamps), or SPDIF coax/optical/AES digital output.  Where as with the Startech/ICRON USB/Ethernet IP solution - your choice of DDC is wide open - and can continue to be upgraded down the road. This a real deal killer for me.
 
On the Plus side - lower cost and less in the chain - although a separate LPS box would likely still be needed for better SQ.
 
OK so why may USB Flash Drives be the optimal solid state storage medium?
 
I posted this at the opening of this thread - from a CA thread:

Quote:

  Someone over on this CA thread mentioned that USB sticks sound better then SSD or HDD:
 
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f7-disk-storage-music-library-storage/does-solid-state-drive-sound-better-hard-disk-1650/index4.html

sandyk

Masters Level Member

​

Join Date​

Aug 2009

Location​

Sydney Australia

Posts​

8,339
​

You're trying to explain digital audio system with analog means where indeed power supply quality or line noise may affect the signal




Many people will tell you that a USB memory stick, which has an inbuilt 3.3V voltage regulator , sounds a little better than either SSD or HDD. It's very easy to demonstrate using a high resolution sound system, that the same USB memory stick when supplied by a very high quality +5V Linear PSU, with vBus +5V disconnected at the PC end of a USB cable sounds noticeably better than when usingUSB power, even when both .wav files are played from System Memory using cPlay.
I had no problems demonstrating that, and an even more highly contentious issue, to a Sydney based qualifiied E.E. at a listening session several weekends ago. The E.E has wide industry experience, and is also a DIYAudio member.("Owdeo")
Alex

​

 
Now imagine taking those USB sticks and running them outside the PC - on a galvanically isolated - low noise LPS powered unit - power separate from the PC.  But there maybe an additional benefit from the USB>Ethernet>USB packet translation going on.  The files all run fine, even 352K PCM Wave and DSD128 files - no hiccups, super stable.  Running my system 24/7 for weeks nows - with no hangups.  Latency is fine as well. 

 

I now wonder if a better USB stick for audiophile use could be made or modded - one with a etter lower noise 3.3VDC regulator?
 
 
Someone had mentioned to me that the slower speed of USB 2.0 vs SATA III may actually be a benefit to the SQ.  Less chance of overloading the memory buffer as the CPU processes the incoming music file data stream in the audio player.
 
I don't know about that - but certainly having the critical conversion operation from solid state storage to a active USB data stream done in a 'clean' environment away from the CPU and it's inherent RFI/EMI, ground plane noise, etc... Can't hurt.  Especially since the USB sticks are now powered by very low noise LPS.

 

[rb2013]

  Hi Bob,
 
Thanks for sharing your experiments and findings.
I wish I had more time to do my own experiments...
 
I have some questions about your ratings of the Singxer :
1)
Is the main difference between
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2    145
and
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB   170
that the music is stored on isolated usb flash drives (instead of HDD)
The Startech is out of budget for me, did you try using your flash drives with a powered USB hub (data USB cable from the computer only)
 
Did you try an USB galvanic Isolator like this one ?
http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/en/product/1165503/?insert=62&insertNoDeeplink&productname=CESYS-Cesys
 

2) What are the differences between
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB   170
and
Ultra USB chain (details to long to list)      370
 
 
SSD drive + cables + ... ?
 
I want to try to get the best from my NUC+ssd+LPS / Recovery + LPS / iPur2 / Singxer. My next try will be the USB flash drive. ( I dont believe in cables ...)
 
 
 
 
 
Cheers
 
David

Hi David - again thanks for the kind words.
 

Well the difference in your question #1 had nothing to do with the USB sticks - that discovery came much later.  I have not tried a generic USB hub for storage - maybe powered by a LPS.  That would be a good experiment.  But would not have the benefit of the Startech USB/Ethenet galvanic isolation nor what I believe to be an inherent advantage to the USB packet to IP packet translations.
 
I have not tried the intona or any other USB GI isolator.  I won't go into my criticisms of the Intona in detail here  - I posted a great deal on the Gustard U12 thread (mainly the low quality SI Time CMEMS clocks used).  It is not easy to make a true USB GI that can reliably handle the High Speed throughput for Hi Res.  But really have no need to with the Startech providing this with inherent UTP CAT cabling.  I will note I did try using a SMFC in between to very little effect -and in fact needed to power the two boxes with a pr of LPS's to not degrade the SQ.
 
I also tried a variety of CAT5e and CAT6 UTP cables - the best being the Blue Jean Cable CAT6 550Mhz.  Very reasonable cost.
 
As for your second question - the evolution of the '170' chain to the '370' chain is described in detail in post #54. 
 
The changes were more then just the addition of the USB sticks, it did include the changes in some of the cables.  But also the use of Fidelizer Pro - now on my AOIP thread a few folks who had liked what FP did for their USB chain - found it had little benefit when using the Dante Rednet AOIP solution.  So I kind of ignored it.  Not smart - I should have at least given the free one a try.  Anyway, once I moved back to focusing on the USB chain - I thought what the heck.  Everything was running smoothly and reliably.  Well it made a very significant difference!  Increase in detail and even greater dynamics. I was a bit worried with the music files having to be read over the USB/Ethernet connection - then the processed music data stream back again - how Fidelizer Pro would possibly create problems.  Not a worry.  I will say the increase in musical intensity was almost too much at the 'Purist' setting, so I had set it to 'Audiophile' for a while.
 
I had moved the OS over to a PNY 128GB SSD from a HDD (to go completely spinnerless) right before installing FPro.  This way I could always default back to my HDD, if issues would come up that could not be fixed.  I mean what FPro does is very extensive.  Anyway I think the PNY SSD needed a 100 hours to settle in - it did improve the SQ right out of the box - but the sound had gained a brightness - with FPro 'Purist'.  That totally went away - and I was able to benefit from the more intense 'Purist' setting again with near perfect tonal balance.
 
Important note:  The big leap in the rankings from '170' for the Uber USB chain to the best of AOIP Rednet/Muted/Antelope at 270 was a greater amount of detail, smoothness and deeper bass.  But as I said before, after a few months a loss of some emotional connection.  Hard to really put into words, and may just be my perception so YMMV, I would lose interest in the music after a short period.  It reminds me of my 'Krell' days  - oh God could those massive Krell amps just shake the rafters and where very impressive at the start - but I would lose that emotional conection.  This was at the very start of my serious audio journey.   Then I discovered Harry Pearson and 'The Absolute Sound'  back when it took no advertising (it's a POS now). Harry espoused the sonic and emotive quality of analog and most important TUBE gear.  Out went the big Krells (with the help of a forklift) and in came a very long series of tube amps and pre-amps.

 
 
So I equate this experience to that - AOIP (solid state amps) to Ultra USB (tube amps).  Now many tube amps had major flaws!  Bass was flabby and weak - but the midrange tonality was fantastic. 

 

 
 

 
That lead to trying to solve this equation.  Fast forward 15yr later I landed at the tube Hybrid integrated solution.  Class A solid state for the output section, Class A true tube in the pre-amp section.  Viola! Deep tight bass with thunderous extension and that mid-range magic!  Better treble extension as well.
 
I equate this Ultra USB chain as the solving of this AOIP vs USB equation in a similar fashion.  A Hybrid of USB and Ethernet IP.
 
Sorry for the long story but I'm trying to condense 30 yrs of very intense audio experience into a few paragraphs.  My handle on Audiogon is Rb99 and I have over 200 transactions - much amp, pre-amp, cable, speaker rolling.