[SilverEars]

As a Chinese person who spent most of the time on the other side “Erji.net” and have seen discussions on Erji on this very similar topic extensively, I think one important theory and aspect hasn’t been discussed in this thread yet is to really look at the placebo effect and the psychological state when using more expensive cables.

Hypothesis #1: People hear different sounds or have different perception of the same sound at different time during the day or different energy level during the day.

Hypothesis #2: Your neural and body reactions to all sort of stimulus constantly changes. Basically your body at this moment will be different from your body at the next moment.

Hypothesis #3: when listening to more expensive gears in general, the listener will tune their mental state to heighten the perception of sound and also lead him or herself to pay more attention to the sound.

If any of the above hypothesis is true, then listening to ANY cable at different time could sound different to the listener. And the price effect will make the “different” become “better”.

Now. If using experience gears help the owner heighten their senses subjectively, and get them to appreciate what they have more, it might as well worth it to buy expensive cables. All the sound we hear is nothing but an image stitched together by our brain and conciousness. The upgrade of cable in this case is an updgrade of a more careful listening mindset internally. It’s the same effect when you look at the same painting on your computer or a painted wall in an office building VS in a museum or gallery - the content is the same but your mental state of accepting those content are different.

The setup of cable dac and amp is undeniably a highly ritual process and all eventually leads to some sort of respect to the music and the eventual focus is the music.

I want to propose that from this point of discussion moving forward, we can at least separate the objective measurement and the subject perception when it comes to “does it make any difference”.

I tried swapping out cables to differentiate sound. I need to proper rig to switch between the two cables quickly. I don't trust myself to recall how it sounded like after after the amount of time it took to swap them out. It's quite difficult to decern, and it makes you hyper attentive at looking for differences and if you recall the memory imprecisely, your impressions are not accurate.

I have heard the argument that usb sounds harsher than optical or the usb sounds shrill or has glare compared to optically fed signal due to noisy line. How does that make sense, although at times, usb seemed brighter sounding than optical. Also, bit rate did change how I perceived sound as well.

 

[GChief]

Ya all are very entertaining. And I am learning.

Thank You!!!!

 

[Whazzzup]

I have heard the argument that usb sounds harsher than optical or the usb sounds shrill or has glare compared to optically fed signal due to noisy line. How does that make sense, although at times, usb seemed brighter sounding than optical. Also, bit rate did change how I perceived sound as well.

I actually can contribute maybe, this depends on delivery source and dac. For example for me my server prefer delivery method is ssd to usb and my TT dac preferred input is its enhanced galvanized USB HD port. Now i have not A/B any other coax etc...Ill take both manufacturers word for that. Now I have A/B the server and I mac delivery itself but thats a different story.

 

[gregorio]

There are abundance of instances were using different brands or quality of gasoline makes the car run better or worse.

So, your saying that using an external fuel filter is going to change the brand and/or grade of the fuel is it? And you think I've got a poor grasp of reality? Classic but entertaining!

G

 

[bigshot]

There are abundance of instances were using different brands or quality of gasoline makes the car run better or worse. This does not mean the car is defective.

When he says "brand", he means Texaco vs Mobil. I think you are mistaking octane ratings for brands. Regular gas does work differently in some cars than Premium, but that's because it actually is different. Buying regular gas from Texaco vs Mobil isn't going to be different.

 

[gregorio]

When he says "brand", he means Texaco vs Mobil. I think you are mistaking octane ratings for brands. Regular gas does work differently in some cars than Premium, but that's because it actually is different. Buying regular gas from Texaco vs Mobil isn't going to be different.

It doesn't matter whether we're talking about different brands or different octane ratings, because just filtering the fuel is not going to magically change Texaco gasoline into Mobil gasoline or regular into premium. The only way an external fuel filter is going to make any difference is if the fuel is dirty to start with AND the car's own fuel filter is not adequately filtering it.

To be honest, I always just assumed that most/all of the more extreme audiophiles we're generally normal people who took the hobby very seriously and accepted the published marketing BS, shills, cherry picked anecdotes and indirectly paid for reviews because, due to the financial incentive, there's an overwhelming amount of it targeted at the audiophile community and little/no financial incentive to target them with the actual facts. If you want the actual facts you've often got to look outside the audiophile community, at other communities to whom the facts are targeted, the science community and the sound engineering communities for example. So as an average/normal person, already in or entering the audiophile world, it's relatively difficult to escape this overwhelming, commercially manipulated/manufactured audiophile "group think".

I used the new car and fuel filter analogy for 4 reasons: 1. AFAIK, there is no manipulated "group think" about magical properties of third party external fuel filtering accessories to be fooled by. 2. It removes the emotion of audiophilia. 3. It's a very simple, easy to understand analogy. AND 4. Any average/normal person would complain to the dealer, they wouldn't unquestioningly go out and spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on third party filtering accessories to pre-filter the fuel at the gas pump.
Mediahound's response has got me thinking that maybe my assumption about the more extreme audiophiles is incorrect. I see three possibilities, either: A. I'm misjudging "normal" people, maybe an average/normal person would go out and unquestioningly buy a bunch of fuel filtering accessories and I'm the abnormal one for complaining to the dealer? Or B. Maybe audiophiles (some of them) are NOT otherwise normal people who've just been successfully manipulated by the audiophile marketing BS/press/shills, etc. Maybe their abnormal gullibility, ignorance and/or irrational beliefs are not confined to ONLY audiophilia but they are just abnormal period? The third possibility is that C. Maybe Mediahound does actually "get it" but is just trolling or a shill?

G

 

[Mediahound]

Different brands of gasoline do run better on most cars versus other brands, despite being the same octane rating. Why? Because newsflash: some brands in fact filter their fuel better and/or include better detergent additives. This is known fact. Different brands also formulate their product differently while still adhering to the government regulated specs. Some brands may be 'top tier' rated in the USA, others, may not be.

It's ridiculous to think one should return the car to the dealership due to this fact. Yet this is what gregorio suggests.

 

[Arpiben]

Different brands of gasoline do run better on most cars versus other brands, despite being the same octane rating. Why? Because newsflash: some brands do in fact filter their fuel better a

Different brands of gasoline do run better on most cars versus other brands, despite being the same octane rating. Why? Because newsflash: some brands in fact filter their fuel better and/or include better detergent additives. This is known fact. Different brands also formulate their product differently while still adhering to the government regulated specs. Some brands may be 'top tier' rated in the USA, others, may not be.

It's ridiculous to think one should return the car to the dealership due to this fact. Yet this is what gregorio suggests.

IMO, not ridiculous at all considering:

• USB cable price ratio in the hundreds range
• Probability, time & cost to find the `perfect cable` pretending solving all devices flaws.

If gasoline price ratios were in the same range as audiophile ones then sure I will save money by returning such car as fast as possible.

 

[gregorio]

Because newsflash: some brands in fact filter their fuel better and/or include better detergent additives. This is known fact.

Newsflash: Cars ALREADY contain a fuel filter and adding another fuel filter is NOT going to magically add any missing "better detergent additives". This is known fact! Are you really incapable of comprehending this most simple of facts or are you trolling?

It's ridiculous to think one should return the car to the dealership due to this fact. Yet this is what gregorio suggests.

No, what's ridiculous is your comprehension deficiency and deliberate misrepresentations. As that level of comprehension deficiency is unbelievable, the only believable conclusion is that you're trolling. So thanks for answering the question at the end of my last post, albeit indirectly. Maybe it's time for castleofargh to step in?

G

 

[Mediahound]

Newsflash: Cars ALREADY contain a fuel filter and adding another fuel filter is NOT going to magically add any missing "better detergent additives". This is known fact! Are you really incapable of comprehending this most simple of facts or are you trolling?



No, what's ridiculous is your comprehension deficiency and deliberate misrepresentations. As that level of comprehension deficiency is unbelievable, the only believable conclusion is that you're trolling. So thanks for answering the question at the end of my last post, albeit indirectly. Maybe it's time for castleofargh to step in?

G

You really seem to not be able to comprehend simple points being made here. Do I really have to spell this out for you?:

Better quality fuels do run better in your car than other crappy fuels. Buying fuel from a crappy station with polluted tanks can put more particulates in to your car whereas better gas is cleaner and even has detergents which help your car run better and keep everything in your engine and fuel lines cleaner.

You keep saying cars have fuel filters. Duh. That has nothing to do with the fact that different fuels will make your car run better than others, not to mention the fact that running dirty fuel through your fuel filter will clog it faster than running a cleaner fuel and that the fuel filter cannot filter everything so starting with a higher quality fuel is always better.

You keep stating that I'm trolling when you cannot argue your point effectively, yet the irony is that the mods have removed posts of yours due to trolling here.

 

[GChief]

Newsflash: Cars ALREADY contain a fuel filter and adding another fuel filter is NOT going to magically add any missing "better detergent additives". This is known fact! Are you really incapable of comprehending this most simple of facts or are you trolling?



No, what's ridiculous is your comprehension deficiency and deliberate misrepresentations. As that level of comprehension deficiency is unbelievable, the only believable conclusion is that you're trolling. So thanks for answering the question at the end of my last post, albeit indirectly. Maybe it's time for castleofargh to step in?

G

Wow, I am new here and did not realize the thought/opinion police are working in full force here.

 

[bigshot]

Different brands of gasoline do run better on most cars versus other brands, despite being the same octane rating.

Do you think you could discern the difference between Texaco and Mobil in your own car with a double blind test? (You don't have to drive blindfolded!)

Wow, I am new here and did not realize the thought/opinion police are working in full force here.

Welcome to Sound Science! This is the only forum at HeadFi where thoughts and opinions are subject to challenge. With everything you say, you are being judged. Have fun!

 

[Mediahound]

Do you think you could discern the difference between Texaco and Mobil in your own car with a double blind test? (You don't have to drive blindfolded!)

We don't have Texaco here in Northern CA so your query is invalid.

In all seriousness, I can indeed tell a difference in how my car runs if I fill up with say Chevron versus say Arco. My mechanic (ASE certified) can too. He's told me that he has taken apart engines with 100k miles on them that have used crappy gas that were all gummed up with deposits, versus engines run with only quality fuels with detergents, that were totally clean.

 

[bfreedma]

We don't have Texaco here in Northern CA so your query is invalid.

In all seriousness, I can indeed tell a difference in how my car runs if I fill up with say Chevron versus say Arco. My mechanic (ASE certified) can too. He's told me that he has taken apart engines with 100k miles on them that have used crappy gas that were all gummed up with deposits, versus engines run with only quality fuels with detergents, that were totally clean.

IMO, The analogy isn’t about different brands of gas, but the same brand of gas with the OEM and aftermarket fuel filters representing the USB cables

Fill car A with gas A through the factory fuel filter
Fill car A with gas A through a $1000 aftermarket filter.

Same car, same gas, different filters.

Car anologies - they never seem to help

 

[GChief]

Welcome to Sound Science! This is the only forum at HeadFi where thoughts and opinions are subject to challenge. With everything you say, you are being judged. Have fun!

Thanks for the welcome!! And I am onboard with that. Just don’t expect me to explain myself when I make a point that has 30+ yrs of experience working on digital electronics and sound processing equipment. I will be stating real world experiences and people can take it or leave it. No skin off my a$$. And the old retired Chief Petty Officer in me will probably step out of line occasionally, if I do and you get butt hurt give me your address and I will send a safety pin to you. If I do post something technical of course I will explain myself.

Cheers