[jrosenth]

Outside of the kimber are there and specific recommendation for usb to mini usb like the kimber?

 

[krisjan]

ok, i have read some of the papers by steve, etc. and the concept of jitter influencing audio quality makes perfect sense, but in terms of the practical implications for the leymen such as myself... i'd like to hear some kind of qualitative description from someone knowledgeable in terms of how audio influenced by jitter sounds - is it a loss of detail? or weird pitch-bending effects? audible noise? Does a low-jitter system simply have more clarity...

Second q - Can jitter affect the latency performance of a soundcard such as the emu0202, or is this a completely different issue altogether - in other words could i gain a millisecond or two with a synergistic cable as opposed to a belkin gold, or would it only be sound quality gain...(sorry if this is a dumb q, but since jitter is a time related thing i was wondering if it could affect the latency)

(i went out and bought a 1.8m belkin btw - the other one i used was just simple dell cable with ferrite beads...even the stock emu cable that i used at first has a ferrite bead around one end?!)

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioengr /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here are some asylum threads on the same topic: Computer Audio Asylum Computer Audio Asylum Computer Audio Asylum As you can see, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence supporting the physics, and the difficulty of making anything jitter intolerant. Steve N. Empirical Audio

The evidence is anecdotal, but not at all empirical.

USB has been argued to be asynchronous and buffered, making it less than ideal for very high speed high precision bidirectional data timing. Upgraded USB cables will not make up for this fact. You are more or less putting high end Z Rated racing tires on a pick up truck.

-Ed

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flecom /img/forum/go_quote.gif seriously? i mean, really, seriously??? teflon USB?

Seriously. Even more important than a S/PDIF cable with Teflon dielectric.

Quote:

one of the problem i have had with the really crappy USB cables that come with devices are that their conductors are TOO thin causing too much V drop across the cable (mind you these are like 1ft cables, so you can imagine lol)

I dont recommend using a device that utilizes USB power. This is way too noisy for audio. This is the only reason to have larger conductors. Most hgih-quality cables like the Belkin Gold have large gauge on the power and smaller on the signals anyway.

Quote:

you CANNOT "color" 1's and 0's, additionally jitter is so massively over-rated, its just reaching for straws, 99% of people are not going to notice 99% of errors, so please stop with the FUD

We are not talking about 1's and 0's. We are talking about mucking-up the timing of the 1's and 0's. Pay attention.

There are plenty of cable non-believers for all kinds of cables. Cables matter, all types analog and digital. Go ahead and put your head in the sand. The rest of us will have better audio.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[audioengr]

ok, i have read some of the papers by steve, etc. and the concept of jitter influencing audio quality makes perfect sense, but in terms of the practical implications for the leymen such as myself... i'd like to hear some kind of qualitative description from someone knowledgeable in terms of how audio influenced by jitter sounds - is it a loss of detail? or weird pitch-bending effects? audible noise? Does a low-jitter system simply have more clarity...

This is difficult to describe. Some folks call it "veils". My wife describes it like looking through a dirty window. After the jitter is reduced, the window is clean and you see all of the detail outside and none of the haze on the window.

Quote:

Second q - Can jitter affect the latency performance of a soundcard such as the emu0202, or is this a completely different issue altogether - in other words could i gain a millisecond or two with a synergistic cable as opposed to a belkin gold, or would it only be sound quality gain...(sorry if this is a dumb q, but since jitter is a time related thing i was wondering if it could affect the latency)

Latency is completely different issue. Has to do with the software stack and hardware implementation in the computer that drives the USB interfaces.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif The evidence is anecdotal, but not at all empirical. USB has been argued to be asynchronous and buffered, making it less than ideal for very high speed high precision bidirectional data timing. Upgraded USB cables will not make up for this fact. You are more or less putting high end Z Rated racing tires on a pick up truck. -Ed

Packetized networked data is certainly a superior method to USB, but has issues such as non-support for higher sample-rates, limitations to player software choice, usually more costly and interference if it is WiFi.

The cheapest way currently to get hi-res is USB.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[jrosenth]

Steve, seriously do you have any cable rec.s for mini USB other than the kimber but around its price?

thanks

 

[Quaddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrosenth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Outside of the kimber are there and specific recommendation for usb to mini usb like the kimber?

its a limited market, straight away if you are after a 'high quality' usb cable with a native mini USB termination

best, as i did, to buy a HQ usb cable of your choice, with its standard A to B plugs, and use a decent quality gender bender, A to Mini for example

you will struggle to find one, if at all, catering for native USB mini

i did buy a lindy B to A-mini some while back but i much prefer using my cryo-parts usb cables, in fact the dac i use now doesnt need the mini plugs like my headroom did

supposed to be getting my axis from cryo parts in next few weeks, to compare alongside my standard and existing 'standard' cryo-parts cable...will be giving my thoughts sometime then

loving this thread, some great posts..

 

[jrosenth]

Cool - thanks - that's kind of what I was finding.

I'll look forward to reading your thoughts on the cables.

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioengr /img/forum/go_quote.gif The best available currently are the Synergistic and the Locus Design Axis. These are spendy, so I would recommend the Belkin Gold for around $20 for 5m. This is what I generally use. Steve N. Empirical Audio

Do you think those cables are worth it or is the difference small enough for you to just use the Belkin as you say? Also, can you give is a ball park number as to how much better an expensive USB cable can sound, 5%, 20%, etc.?

 

[myinitialsaredac]

Steve,
Thanks for all the info.

Whats your opinion on using software resampling such as the secret rabbit resampler for foobar I think you alluded to in your white papers.

Also, If I'm correct you are totally against using optical toslink, and believe usb to be a much better solution even with the pcm2902 usb handler chip that is employed in a lot of dacs?

Basically what I'm am getting at is what would you recommend to get my audio out from my pc to the headroom microdac, (toslink or usb)? If you want to help out a reply here is fine, or a pm works also

Thanks,

Dave

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you think those cables are worth it or is the difference small enough for you to just use the Belkin as you say? Also, can you give is a ball park number as to how much better an expensive USB cable can sound, 5%, 20%, etc.?

These upgrade cables are around $500 and $2K. Are they worth it? I dont know, never heard them.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by myinitialsaredac /img/forum/go_quote.gif Steve, Thanks for all the info. Whats your opinion on using software resampling such as the secret rabbit resampler for foobar I think you alluded to in your white papers.

I exclusively use SRC upsampling to 24/96 with Foobar 0.8.3 because I like the way it sounds on my system. Some prefer 44.1.

Quote:

Also, If I'm correct you are totally against using optical toslink, and believe usb to be a much better solution even with the pcm2902 usb handler chip that is employed in a lot of dacs?

The PCM270X is what is mostly used. Not sure which one of these is really worse. They are both bad IMO.

Quote:

Basically what I'm am getting at is what would you recommend to get my audio out from my pc to the headroom microdac, (toslink or usb)? If you want to help out a reply here is fine, or a pm works also

I'll PM

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioengr /img/forum/go_quote.gif Packetized networked data is certainly a superior method to USB, but has issues such as non-support for higher sample-rates, limitations to player software choice, usually more costly and interference if it is WiFi. The cheapest way currently to get hi-res is USB. Steve N. Empirical Audio

That's why USB implentation is so popular. Best bang for the buck I suppose.

-Ed

 

[skamp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioengr /img/forum/go_quote.gif Go ahead and put your head in the sand. The rest of us will have better audio.

…says the salesman. The big problem with such allegations, besides the fact that they're highly technical and, quite frankly, don't make a whole lot of sense to the layman, is that you can't trust anyone when (a lot of) money is involved. The omnipresence of snake oil in the audio market doesn't help with trust issues either.