[ultrabike]

Quote:

 
But who really cares about these audiophile cable arguments? There is no point in being a total weenie and try to rational everything when you can simply use your own ears and draw your own conclusions? How can you argue against a "high end" $500+ cable if you have never heard one???  I have heard cables from several price levels and that is what I based my conclusion on.
 
 
My advice is try different cables and decide for yourself what sounds best. There is no need to make this any more complicated that it is. Sheesh.

 
Is there any particular high-end high-performance cable you vouch for that is readily available for trial?

 

[ultrabike]

Quote:

No, no, no. I am informed b/c I have took the time to compare several different levels of cables and I have drawn my own conclusion from that.. and solely that. Others including yourself clearly have not there is no point in arguing with you if you won't try it for yourself. When I hear a general smack you in face difference I call it "objective" b/c the sound difference can not be denied. Notice I have said "difference" not "better" or "worse". Only you can decide that.
 
So why not try it for yourself? Otherwise your counter-argument will not prove anything.

 
You are being very vague here. What cables did you found to be very different in a positive way with what equipment?
 
And why are you posting all of this in the Sound Science forum if you don't have any scientific evidence to support your stance? I'm not denying your hearing of differences with different cables... but there is a forum for that... AFAIK this is not it.

 

[radiofrog]

Quote:

... but there is a forum for that... AFAIK this is not it.

 
This may not be the forum for it, but I'm finding this entertaining.
 

 

[anetode]

Quote:

 
But who really cares about these audiophile cable arguments? There is no point in being a total weenie and try to rational everything when you can simply use your own ears and draw your own conclusions? How can you argue against a "high end" $500+ cable if you have never heard one???  I have heard cables from several price levels and that is what I based my conclusion on.
 
 
My advice is try different cables and decide for yourself what sounds best. There is no need to make this any more complicated that it is. Sheesh.

There's no point to shutting down your mind and opening your wallet either. Though I like your total weenie argument, it reminds me of kids daring each other to eat dirt.
 
Wouldn't you know it, I have heard audiophile USB cables, much to my chagrin, at hifi shows and hifi retailers. They didn't make a difference with expensive DACs and they didn't make a difference with the SanDisk Clip I brought along. I've also had my hearing checked, turns out that it works quite well. So where's the difference? Could it be in your mind?

 

[jaddie]

Quote:

 
But who really cares about these audiophile cable arguments? There is no point in being a total weenie and try to rational everything when you can simply use your own ears and draw your own conclusions? How can you argue against a "high end" $500+ cable if you have never heard one???  I have heard cables from several price levels and that is what I based my conclusion on.
 
 
My advice is try different cables and decide for yourself what sounds best. There is no need to make this any more complicated that it is. Sheesh.

 
Well, as said in this thread, using just using your ears doesn't get around flaws in judgement caused by expectation bias. It's not that easy to audition USB cables.  
 
Assuming your'e working with a PC and a DAC, usb connected.  Here's what you need to test and use only your ears:
 
A computer with multi-track audio software (Audition, Audacity, similar) with two USB connections
Several audio test selections.
A way to test both DACS for level match
A way of switching your headphones (or audio system) between the DACs, Choice A and Choice B
A way to switch to a third choice (C) equal to DAC1 or DAC2, but not known to the tester which it is
A way to scramble which DAC is on Choice 3 for at lest 20 tests
A way to recover a "truth table" that lists what Choice 3 was after the tests are completed
Two USB cables to test
 
Prep:
Two copies of test audio file is placed into the software so they appears in two stereo sets of tracks, positioned to play in perfect sync.  On stereo set is routed to DAC 1, the other to DAC 2.
 
Then...
The tester listens to both choice Choice A and Choice B, switching between them at will.
The tester then listens to Choice C, and attempts to match it to Choice A or B, and records his decision.
 
After collecting data for about 20 test cycles, swap the DACs USB connections and do it again.  This is necessary to eliminate differences in the two USB connections at the computer.
 
Tally it all up, see if the results show that DACS can be matched reliably to an unknown choice to , say, 60% or better accuracy.  
 
What you'd have then is good data, using just your ears, that would show a different cables present an audible difference with equipment in your test setup.  It would not prove the same cables would be different in a different setup, with different DACs, USB connections, etc.  
 
Ok.......GO!

 

[bigshot]

Listening tests can be very useful as long as you deal with the issues of expectation bias, auditory memory and volume matching. How did you deal with those issues when you did a comparison of high end USB cables?

 

[ab initio]

Quote:

How can you argue against a "high end" $500+ cable if you have never heard one??? 

 
Here is how I propose arguing against $500 cables if you haven't heard them:
USB has a set of specifications [http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/] such that a system whose components are all operating within specification will behave in a deterministic fashion. If you have a USB cable which meets the electrical specifications of the USB standard, and this cable connects two devices who also operate within the USB specifications, then the result of swapping the USB cable with another USB cable which also meets the USB specifications will be identical behavior. Any deviation in behavior is the result of one of the components not meeting the USB standard. Therefore, if you replace a $500 cable (that meets or exceeds USB specification) with another cable that also meets the USB specification (regardless of price) and you get a different result, then you can conclude that one of the components is faulty (in the sense that it doesn't meet the USB specification). It's not the cable.
 
If the only USB cables that meet the proper specification cost $500+, then I completely agree with you that the $500+ cables can't be argued against.
 
Cheers
 
[edit] to fix link and grammar

 

[robertsong]

Quote:

There's no point to shutting down your mind and opening your wallet either. Though I like your total weenie argument, it reminds me of kids daring each other to eat dirt.
 
Wouldn't you know it, I have heard audiophile USB cables, much to my chagrin, at hifi shows and hifi retailers. They didn't make a difference with expensive DACs and they didn't make a difference with the SanDisk Clip I brought along. I've also had my hearing checked, turns out that it works quite well. So where's the difference? Could it be in your mind?

 
I have treated my cable connectors with Deoxit Gold, and I have added Isopod feet under my DAC. I believe both of those made some sound improvement, but I cannot be certain it wasn't "just in my mind".
 
With the Dual-Conduit it was not one of these cases. The improvement was not subtle in the least. It was a genuine smack me in the face difference from the Lacie Flat cable which I was using for six months. I did not "A/B" them, and if I actually felt a need to do that I would have returned the cable immediately. Why dish out $350 for a subtle improvement? I could just use that cash towards a better DAC, right?
 
I would have never even bothered to mentioned the dual-conduit here if I did not feel so strongly about the improvement. As I said before, it beat my expectations. I look for even further improvement when I add-on a dedicated +5V power supply ( many on HF praise this method).
 
I'm sorry to hear your experience with audiophile USB cables was completely unlike mine. I find this interesting. Can I ask which cables and DACs you heard that let you to your conclusion?
 
The other cables that seem to get alot of praise in magazines and internet are the WW Platinum Starlight, Acoustic Revive, King Rex Y cable, and the Locus Design Polestar, FWIW.

 

[anetode]

Quote:

 
I'm sorry to hear your experience with audiophile USB cables was completely unlike mine. I find this interesting. Can I ask which cables and DACs you heard that let you to your conclusion?

I do too and I will answer your question after you answer mine: could this difference that you hear be all in your mind (e.g. a result of expectation bias)? If not, how do you know?

 

[robertsong]

Quote:

 
If the only USB cables that meet the proper specification cost $500+, then I completely agree with you that the $500+ cables can't be argued against.
 
Cheers
 
[edit] to fix link and grammar

 
 
Proper specification? Any POS USB cable can have the proper computer specs.  What were talking about here with audiophile cables is minimizing jitter that is introduced within the cable, and minimizing extraneous noise as well as the noise from it's own +5v line. That is what accounts for sound differences. I know that is not what you want to believe, and you most likely won't research much into the subject, but if you wanted to you could certainly find the right answers to satisfy you.

 

[robertsong]

Quote:

I do too and I will answer your question after you answer mine: could this difference that you hear be all in your mind (e.g. a result of expectation bias)? If not, how do you know?

Read more carefully. I thought I tackled that thoroughly.
 
Which cables? Huh?

 

[bigshot]

You didn't take the trouble to find out if there really was a difference. Auditory memory is measured in seconds. If you didn't do a direct A/B, you can't know if there was a difference or not. You couldn't have accurately level matched either, although I don't think that's the problem here. You also didn't do a blind test, so you're subject to expectation bias.

None of this is meant as a criticism of you. But there shouldn't be a difference between functioning USB cables. If there is, either one of them is defective and should be replaced, or your comparison isn't controlled enough.

I get USB cables from Monoprice that work as good as any other USB cable out there at any price. You might try them next time and save yourself a lot of money. Doing carefully controlled comparison tests will help a lot with that too.

 

[robertsong]

Oh this is interesting...
 
 
I see you have both the HD650 and HD800 in your headphone inventory. Great headphones! Can I assume you hear very little difference between these? Quite a big price difference there between those two.

 

[bigshot]

Proper specification? Any POS USB cable can have the proper computer specs.  What were talking about here with audiophile cables is minimizing jitter that is introduced within the cable, and minimizing extraneous noise as well as the noise from it's own +5v line. That is what accounts for sound differences. I know that is not what you want to believe, and you most likely won't research much into the subject, but if you wanted to you could certainly find the right answers to satisfy you.

I've done the research into the subject. I'm afraid you're wrong. Even the cheapest USB cable doesn't cause jitter or line noise at audible levels.

 

[bigshot]

I see you have both the HD650 and HD800 in your headphone inventory. Great headphones! Can I assume you hear very little difference between these? Quite a big price difference there between those two.

The difference between transducers... even different samples of the same model are MUCH more audible than the difference between modern digital hifi components and cables.

If you're interested, you should read a few of the threads in the Sound Science forum. There are some very knowledgeable people in this forum. Lots to learn.