[Griploc]

Im running an intel mac mid 2010 with an apogee symphony io dac. The truth is the sound quality changes significantly when u have good converters and good clocking recording digital.

 

[bigshot]

If a most-significant bit error occurred, then such errors would result in a click/pop artifact.

That isn't necessarily true. Jitter, if it does reach audible levels (which it rarely does), operates in a time frame measured in picoseconds. That is a sliver of time that is so minute, you wouldn't hear it as a pop at all. It would sound more like distortion.

But I wouldn't know for sure, because I've never heard jitter, because it pretty much doesn't exist at audible levels in consumer stereo equipment.

It really pays to be a little bit skeptical and to chase down the truth yourself instead of taking the word of equipment manufacturers. If you really know what is going on, at least at a basic level, it really helps you determine what can make a big difference and what can't. When you hear someone say that improvements aren't measurable, or talk about vague improvements in things like soundstage or imaging, you can be pretty sure they're building their reputation on placebo effects. Madison Avenue plays on this sort of thing all the time. It's more common than most people think. All you have to do to counteract it is engage in a little healthy skepticism.

As for conducting a test at a retailer... Let me tell you a little story about when I was shopping for speakers...

I knew I wanted good speakers, so I went to a pretty high end shop in West LA. I was young, so the salesman gave me a look of disdain, but deigned to demo some speakers for me. He insisted that he would run the switcher. I would just point at what I wanted to hear. I was listening and comparing, and I happened to be looking at the salesman as he switched, and his hand quickly turned a dial when he thought I wasn't looking. I walked over to him and looked at the dial. It was the bass control. He had been boosting and cutting the bass as he switched to make me think one set of speakers were better than another.

I called him on it and told him we'd be there all day trying to figure out which sounded the best if he insisted on changing the settings. He got huffy. Didn't say a word. Just walked away and waited on another custmer. I caught a guy doing the same trick at Circuit City once.

Retailers are the worst place to try to run a controlled comparison. They will flat out try to trick you. Even the good ones. All it takes is a salesman with a low commission total that week.

 

[bigshot]

Im running an intel mac mid 2010 with an apogee symphony io dac. The truth is the sound quality changes significantly when u have good converters and good clocking recording digital.

I'm talking only about playback. Recording requires a whole different level of sound quality. It's a different kettle of fish.

 

[danne]

Quote:

Danne, do you have a Mac? Because it isn't like with PCs. My Mac Mini A/V server kicks ass major league. I'd put it up against anything. It's designed to be an audio and video hub from the ground up. Plug and play.
I'm driving a high end screening room and listening room off a little Mac Mini. It's really all you need. HDMI out, straight into my Yamaha amp. Piece of cake. The analogue out sounds just as good.

 
I do have both a PC, Mac mini, macbook air, ipad etc and there is just miles apart in audio quality when using an external DAC with all of them.
However if you are happy with the sound, there is no need to look further, it will save you alot of money for other stuff. 

 

[ultrabike]

Quote:

Sighhh... A good USB cable really does sound better.... way better. This phenomenon isn't caused by bit errors. It goes beyond our expertise here to talk about it with any degree of authority. If the issue were simple bit errors, the difference between an average USB cable and a high-end USB cable would not be manifested as a loss in sound-staging, frequency response, dynamics, pace, (add your own here) and the subtle nuances that make music so enjoyable to us. If a most-significant bit error occurred, then such errors would result in a click/pop artifact. That not what happens between run-of-the-mill and high-end USB cables. If bit errors were responsible, the musical integrity would come and go, it would be intermittent. That doesn't happen either.
 
Please move past the theory and try it on a nice system... preferably not a Yamaha receiver. Go visit a good dealer (or perhaps find a nice company with a  trial period), bring your nice $20 Belkin USB cable and ask them to swap it out with a really good USB cable. Start to finish, it should take less than 15 minutes (well maybe an hour, because like all of us who have done this, you'll go back and forth 3 times in disbelief)..If you have invested in computer-based music, and you don't do this, then you're leaving musical performance that you paid for on the table. That's sad... and that's why I took the time to share my experiences with all of you. Don't let the lack of explainable theory keep you stuck in the land of mid-fi. Once you hear the difference, you can enjoy your music more than ever, and then still go back and try to understand it... but good luck... you'll need it. If any of you really do take the challenge,  then report back what happens. That would make me happy. Better yet, PM me as I don't expect to participate in this discussion any further..Bye guys. Happy Listening... I tried my best...

 
Chill out dude. If you were/are in disbelief, it should be understandable that others would be as well. I personally found your audio rig really cool... I just haven't bought into the USB cable awesomeness deal.
 
You've got to understand where I'm coming from. I used monoprice USB (Hard Drive to Media Player) and HDMI (Media Player to Receiver) cables and bro I was floored when experiencing my HD movies video and audio. 1080P video was simply flawless, and DTS-HD audio was mosquito fart revealing... What can I say? Maybe I'll give Uber-USB cables a try...
 
Also, If I did hear a dramatic improvement, I would make an attempt to figure out why that is. Saying that no degree of authority or expertise will ever be able to explain what's going on sounds a bit defeatist to me. To start with, how did the USB cable manufacturer found out the secret formula for this metallic uber-conductive technological wonder? What's the deal with "ultra pure DCT-UP-OCC-Ag" and "CryoFreeze process"? Shielding makes sense, but what about damping? Damping what? I don't see anything wrong with trying to figure out what's going on...

 

[liamstrain]

A good USB cable really does sound better.... way better. This phenomenon isn't caused by bit errors. It goes beyond our expertise here to talk about it with any degree of authority. If the issue were simple bit errors, the difference between an average USB cable and a high-end USB cable would not be manifested as a loss in sound-staging, frequency response, dynamics, pace, (add your own here) and the subtle nuances that make music so enjoyable to us. 

 
 
please explain how the frequency response can change with a USB data stream. A 0 or 1 does not make a note slightly higher or lower or clearer if it is transmitted better, it is still a 0 or a 1 when it hits the A/D conversion. Likewise dynamics or pace, etc. 
 
Great if you want to believe that your cable makes a difference. Maybe it actually does, but since you have not done any blind testing, or measurements, we cannot say for sure - especially in the light of there being no current reason or theory supporting that it should or even could make a such a difference.
 
All we are asking for is objective evidence to back up your claims, or even a good theory that explains why you hear what you say you hear. Then we can talk. 
 
For the record, I have tried many "good" USB cables, and heard no difference under level matched, blind switching listening tests. 

 

[mikeaj]

Even supposing there were differences to detect, usually the big changes are between different low-end gear or maybe between low-end and midrange, for a number of reasons.  It's usually not going to be the expensive product that's a revelation or a tier way above.
 
The exception may be when there's a new process or technology that delivers something never seen before, and the new product works by a different set of principles than the old stuff.  Then that's more a matter of different technology than low- vs. high-end.

 

[paradoxper]

Quote:

Even supposing there were differences to detect, usually the big changes are between different low-end gear or maybe between low-end and midrange, for a number of reasons.  It's usually not going to be the expensive product that's a revelation or a tier way above.
 
The exception may be when there's a new process or technology that delivers something never seen before, and the new product works by a different set of principles than the old stuff.  Then that's more a matter of different technology than low- vs. high-end.

Are we talking actual objective new technology or could buzzword marketing and or placebo be included?

 

[liamstrain]

I hope, since we are in Sound Science, actual objective new technology.

 

[mikeaj]

I was thinking about real changes, like along the lines of Laserdisc -> DVD, but maybe it's applicable elsewhere.

 

[paradoxper]

Quote:

I hope, since we are in Sound Science, actual objective new technology.

Well, from a certain other "SS" thread, SS = Objective means moot.

 

[liamstrain]

Quote:

I was thinking about real changes, like along the lines of Laserdisc -> DVD, but maybe it's applicable elsewhere.

I think definitely - I would not at all be surprised, for instance in improved D/A conversion chips or music encoding, or even better transmission protocols (async timing) etc. Things that actually can affect what happens with how digital data is encoded and decoded. THAT makes sense. But not the wire they are transmitted on. 

 

[ultrabike]

I honestly don't think we have all the answers, and for me it's easier to understand that different topology amps/DACs would sound different, specially when coupled with different types of cans.  For example, my Total BitHead, my Sansa Zip, my Creative Zen, and my laptop all sound different (my laptop beats audio is hands down worse btw). Harder to swallow that there are life changing differences among two 28 AWG cables that pass error corrected 1's and 0's... But who knows...
 
Maybe the cable acts as an ideal low pass filter that removes out of band noise, and prevents it from aliasing into the DAC (and affecting the conversion stages inside the DAC) before 1's and 0's even make it to the USB receiver interconnects. Aliens did it, or you can't figure it out by definition is IMO not an acceptable answer though.

 

[bigshot]

I do have both a PC, Mac mini, macbook air, ipad etc and there is just miles apart in audio quality when using an external DAC with all of them.

How do you connect an external DAC to an iPad?

I'm basing my comments on a line level matched direct A/B comparison of my Macs' and iPods' audio out to grood standalone CD and SACD players. The sound with uncompressed audio is identical. If there is a difference I'm not hearing, it really can't be miles apart. I would have heard it.

My Mini is now running into my AV amp so I can decode 5:1, but I couldn't tell any difference because of that, except that 5:1 sound is a huge improvement over two channel.

It seems to me, if a computer or portable device sounds exactly like a $1000 standalone player, there isn't much room for improvement over that.

 

[bigshot]

If I did hear a dramatic improvement, I would make an attempt to figure out why that is.

That's a very important point.

I actually *have* made dramatic improvements in the quality of my sound in the past. But that was never from just swapping in some piece of equipment randomly, just because people say it's good. Whenever I was able to make a nice leap forwards, it's always because I... 1) Identified a specific shortcoming in my rig, 2) Researched how to specifically address the problem, and 3) verified after I had made a change that the improvement I was intending to make had happened.

Getting good sound is a lot like parallel parking a car. You have to go back and forth, makng more and more precise adjustments until you reach your goal. You don't get there by just turning the wheel any old which way and hitting the gas.