[simtom]

Updates:
As this thread received some good recommendations I decided to list them below (ordered from low to high price):
Headphones:

• Beyerdynamic DT 990 Premium 250 ohm (€160 ~ $188)
• Sennheiser HD 600 (€299 ~ $351)
  
• Sennheiser HD 650 (€351 ~ $412)
  
• Sennheiser HD 650 w/ Apogee Groove amp combo (€459 ~ $538)

Amps:

• Sound Blaster E1 (€39.99 ~ $47)
  
• Fiio E10K Olympus 2 (€89.95 ~ $106)
  
• Sound Blaster X-Fi HD (€74.99 ~ $88)
• Schiit Fulla 2 ($99 ~ €84)
• JDS Labs Objective2 ($129 ~ €109)
  
• Musical Fidelity V90-HPA ($199 ~ €170)
  
• Creek OBH-11 ($199 ~ €170)
  
• Schiit Modi/Magni combo (€125 each = €250 ~ $299)

Short version:

• Budget - $295 (€250) to $470 (€400) (limited flexibility)
• Source - iPhone, PC & laptop
• Requirements for Isolation - some, I'll be using them 80% at home
• Will you be using these Headphones in Public? Sometimes (airplane)
• Preferred Type of Headphone - Full size
• Preferred tonal balance - Basshead/smooth midrange/overall balanced (yeah, I know)
• Past headphones - Bose QC15, had no complains
• Preferred Music - EDM/pop
• What would you like to improve on from your set-up - Improved sound quality overall
• Location - Belgium

Long version:
Hello,

I joined this forum because I wanted to get some recommendations about headphones. Before we begin let me explain my current setup.

Since 2013 I’ve been using the Bose QC15 headphones. Personally I think they sound really good but … that’s because I haven’t listened to any other headphones apart from those. I’ve read some articles where they explain why they aren’t actually that good sound wise (though the noise cancellation is very good). Basically they don’t sound great at all according to the reviewers.

Now, after four years of use they’re starting to show some wear and tear, especially the ear cups. They do offer replacements parts but instead of repairing I might consider buying a new pair of headphones.

Naturally I would look at the QC35 (since I’m used to Bose products) but I wanted to know what else is out there. I recently saw the Massdrop offer for the Sennheiser HD 6XX headphones and learned that they’re based off the HD 650 headphones. Apparently they’re seen as one of the best headphones at that price point. But I’m sure there are alternatives and that’s where I need you guys.

First of all, you should see the sound quality of the QC15 headphones as a baseline (though it isn’t that great). I really like to listen to my music using a good quality headphone. I do have a preference for bass heavy headphones but it should not overrule the mids and highs.

Secondly, since the HD 650 has an open back design it isn’t the best choice for me because I’m not always using my headphones strictly at home. So I think I should be looking at closed back designs then. Although I’m still open to suggestions for open back headphones.

Lastly, if there is a headphone that combines noise cancellation with good audio quality, let me know NC is still something I should need so that’s why I keep looking at that kind of headphones.

Extra information: I will be using these headphones with my iPhone and desktop pc. What I mean by that is that I’m not using any amplifiers or sound cards. I know that I should be using those to get an even better sound quality but I’m not looking to have that level of quality.

Music styles: EDM, pop.

Summary (ordered from very important to less important):
1. warm sound color (is that a thing?)
2. comfortable to wear (after two hours it should still feel comfortable, the QC15 are extremely comfortable)
3. noise cancellation (as explained above, closed back is preferred but I’m open to anything)
4. interchangeable batteries (not a build-in one)
5. cabled connection (or both, the wireless QC35 includes a cable as well)

Price range: from $295 (€250) to $470 (€400). I know that’s quite the difference but I’m sure there are headphones who are nicely balanced between them whilst still offering good sound quality.

Please note: these are only guidelines. A headphone shouldn’t necessarily have all of the features listed above (I doubt if one even exists).

I hope that I have provide enough information for you to decide which headphone(s) you would recommend. If you need any additional info, please let me know and I’ll be happy to add it.

Kind regards,
Tomas

 

[obobskivich]

Simple answer: you aren't going to beat Bose for noise cancelling (they really are the best in the world), and no passive closed-back headphone (let alone an open headphone) is going to be really suitable for airplane use or anything like that. My advice would be to keep the QC15 (and avail yourself of replacement parts) for travel/outdoor use, and then concentrate on a headphone for your majority at-home use, which can be whatever you want it to be (I'm assuming your at home environment isn't so loud that open headphones would be a problem).

As far as reviewers insisting "well it isn't really that good, and your ears are lying to you; you've been cheated!" - this is a very common thing for reviewers to say about Bose. It's a very big and popular brand and lots of folks love to hate it for no other reason than its there, just like people love to hate Apple, Microsoft, Ford, Coca-Cola, etc just because they're big visible brands. Basically its contrarianism to show how "unique" and "enlightened" a given writer wants folks to see them as, because "well I know of some XYZ thing that's obscure and liked it before you knew about it." The sound quality on the QC headphones is perhaps not on-par with "a conventional $300 headphone" but is still a good sounding headphone, especially for its size/weight and given the ANC feature (but even that is hard to construct as a strawman example - there's some really awful garbage at $300 (e.g. Beats), and there's some really spectacular standouts (e.g. Sennheiser HD 600); I'd put the QC15 somewhere in the middle - not the end of the world for performance, but certainly nothing to get upset about either). But for mobile use, the only thing that'll really beat the QC up would be IEMs, but if the QC15 are already working for you for airplane travel and such, I'd say keep them and be happy with that - the ANC is really top notch.

Now for at-home, I'd probably say the Sennheiser aren't a bad idea if you A) have an amplifier/device that can drive them comfortably (their impedance is higher than typical modern headphones, which will make them problematic for many battery powered devices, but things like hi-fi receivers or dedicated headphone amplifiers shouldn't have trouble) and B) are okay giving up a bit of bass slam/quantity from the QC15. Overall they wouldn't be my first pick for EDM/trance/electronica/dubstep, but they certainly can hold their own (they really are an excellent headphone overall). Personally when it comes to electronic music I'd pick something faster, brighter, and tighter; an easy suggestion that has powerful low-end would be the Ultrasone PRO900 (or its open-back brother, the PRO2900). I also find that sometimes a relatively lean headphone can also be very nice with electronica (it really depends on if your primary interest is "wub wubs" or listening to the music overall), and there are some great options there too, like the Audio-Technica ATH-A2000X. All three of these are relatively easy to drive, so they should play nicer with most devices than the Sennheisers as well.

 

[simtom]

Thank you for the detailed answer, obobskivich, I really appreciate that.

What you're saying about Bose is correct, it seems like every reviewer 'hates' Bose. Good to hear that they actually are quite good (again, I don't have a reference point). So I'll probably keep the QC15's then for when I'm travelling.

The Sennheiser you're talking about is the HD 650, right?

Are the Ultrasone PRO900 producing extreme low-end sounds or is it still acceptable? I'm not necessary looking for a subwoofer packed in a headphone

I also did some further research and found a company called V-MODA. Do you know them?

 

[Muinarc]

Ultrasones aren't going to be bass monsters and have a very particular sound signature, I would definitely recommend you listen to those before you buy if at all possible. V-Moda is a solid company.

 

[simtom]

Ultrasones aren't going to be bass monsters and have a very particular sound signature, I would definitely recommend you listen to those before you buy if at all possible. V-Moda is a solid company.

I see, thanks for clarifying. Do you know anything about the quality of V-Moda headphones? I don't have a particularly preference for them though, I just saw them listed in a spreadsheet document on Reddit and they look cool. Apparently they're build very well.

 

[cossix]

Bose has top of the line active noise cancellation, I'll admit it. I just don't like any of their headphones in terms of sound quality. The Senn PXC550 kills any Bose offering in every category anyway As for the HD650, don't bother if you won't be getting an amp also. I'd recommend a good set of low impedance/high sensitivity closed back headphones. I've not heard any Vmoda headphones but IMO they're all tacky as hell. Looks don't matter as much as sound obviously (I look like an idiot wearing my lcd2) but damn is Vmoda good at gaudy designs haha.

 

[obobskivich]

Thank you for the detailed answer, obobskivich, I really appreciate that.

What you're saying about Bose is correct, it seems like every reviewer 'hates' Bose. Good to hear that they actually are quite good (again, I don't have a reference point). So I'll probably keep the QC15's then for when I'm travelling.

The Sennheiser you're talking about is the HD 650, right?

Are the Ultrasone PRO900 producing extreme low-end sounds or is it still acceptable? I'm not necessary looking for a subwoofer packed in a headphone

I also did some further research and found a company called V-MODA. Do you know them?

I'm referring to the entire "family" of Sennheiser full-size cans - the HD 580, 600, 650 (I've heard all of them, they're relatively similar - there's a broad review on InnerFidelity that compares the trio). The 6XX are supposed to be a straight re-pack of the 650 with some changes to the cosmetic finishing, but if there are sonic differences I'd still expect them to be within the "family" sound signature.

I've heard of, and demo'd, a few V-Moda cans and consistently come away disliking their performance, build, and fit. The diamond shaped ear cups just don't make sense at all (you know, because we have diamond-shaped heads and all that...), and IMO the sound is just not fantastic. I'm not saying "awful" - probably on-par with the Bose if I'm being honest. They're a lifestyle brand, like Bose, and make an okay sounding product that is meant to satisfy a certain aesthetic. Personally I'd pass - the QC15 will isolate better and are more comfortable, and there are sonically better performers in that price range, especially if you aren't worried about the mobile/noise cancelling/etc.

The PRO900 are quite bassy (the phrase "bass starship" was used years ago and fits them well), but it isn't overblown mud like you might expect from something that's rapper endorsed. The 2900 are somewhat less bassy and somewhat more spacious (very good open/closed contrast between the two), but certainly they're both bassier than neutral (I'd regard the Sennheiser as being fairly neutral) - like the Bose (but tighter, faster, cleaner, etc). The ATs will be less bassy (comparatively and vs neutral).

Ultrasones aren't going to be bass monsters and have a very particular sound signature, I would definitely recommend you listen to those before you buy if at all possible. V-Moda is a solid company.

In my experience there is not a consistent "Ultrasone house sound." And any headphone should be listened to before buying, if possible, but in many cases that isn't feasible - so buy from somewhere that has a good return policy.

Bose has top of the line active noise cancellation, I'll admit it. I just don't like any of their headphones in terms of sound quality. The Senn PXC550 kills any Bose offering in every category anyway As for the HD650, don't bother if you won't be getting an amp also. I'd recommend a good set of low impedance/high sensitivity closed back headphones. I've not heard any Vmoda headphones but IMO they're all tacky as hell. Looks don't matter as much as sound obviously (I look like an idiot wearing my lcd2) but damn is Vmoda good at gaudy designs haha.

I've heard some of the Senn ANC headphones and frankly don't think they stand up to the Bose ANC. Personally I wouldn't buy an ANC headphone apart from the Bose, because their ANC actually (more or less) delivers on the advertising - but on the other hand I'd say you can absolutely get better overall sound quality if you ditch the ANC. As in, I'd take an HD 600/650 over any of the available ANC offerings these days if I didn't *need* the isolation, and those cost around the same (in that $300-ish range). Agree on the V-Moda looks, ha ha.

 

[simtom]

Bose has top of the line active noise cancellation, I'll admit it. I just don't like any of their headphones in terms of sound quality. The Senn PXC550 kills any Bose offering in every category anyway. As for the HD650, don't bother if you won't be getting an amp also. I'd recommend a good set of low impedance/high sensitivity closed back headphones. I've not heard any Vmoda headphones but IMO they're all tacky as hell. Looks don't matter as much as sound obviously (I look like an idiot wearing my lcd2) but damn is Vmoda good at gaudy designs haha.

I see, so the HD650 series are not for me then. The LCD-2 you're talking about is from Audeze right? I know the price is way higher than my budget limit but how would you describe the sound?

I'm referring to the entire "family" of Sennheiser full-size cans - the HD 580, 600, 650 (I've heard all of them, they're relatively similar - there's a broad review on InnerFidelity that compares the trio). The 6XX are supposed to be a straight re-pack of the 650 with some changes to the cosmetic finishing, but if there are sonic differences I'd still expect them to be within the "family" sound signature.

So like stated by cossix, if you're not using an amp they're rather useless?

I've heard of, and demo'd, a few V-Moda cans and consistently come away disliking their performance, build, and fit. The diamond shaped ear cups just don't make sense at all (you know, because we have diamond-shaped heads and all that...), and IMO the sound is just not fantastic. I'm not saying "awful" - probably on-par with the Bose if I'm being honest. They're a lifestyle brand, like Bose, and make an okay sounding product that is meant to satisfy a certain aesthetic. Personally I'd pass - the QC15 will isolate better and are more comfortable, and there are sonically better performers in that price range, especially if you aren't worried about the mobile/noise cancelling/etc.

Okay, so they're out of consideration as well then.

The PRO900 are quite bassy (the phrase "bass starship" was used years ago and fits them well), but it isn't overblown mud like you might expect from something that's rapper endorsed. The 2900 are somewhat less bassy and somewhat more spacious (very good open/closed contrast between the two), but certainly they're both bassier than neutral (I'd regard the Sennheiser as being fairly neutral) - like the Bose (but tighter, faster, cleaner, etc). The ATs will be less bassy (comparatively and vs neutral).

It seems like I should take a closer look at those.

In my experience there is not a consistent "Ultrasone house sound." And any headphone should be listened to before buying, if possible, but in many cases that isn't feasible - so buy from somewhere that has a good return policy.

Will keep that in mind!

I've heard some of the Senn ANC headphones and frankly don't think they stand up to the Bose ANC. Personally I wouldn't buy an ANC headphone apart from the Bose, because their ANC actually (more or less) delivers on the advertising - but on the other hand I'd say you can absolutely get better overall sound quality if you ditch the ANC. As in, I'd take an HD 600/650 over any of the available ANC offerings these days if I didn't *need* the isolation, and those cost around the same (in that $300-ish range). Agree on the V-Moda looks, ha ha.

I can conclude from this that I should keep my QC15's if I need ANC and look for something different when at home. I also read that the Sony MDR-1000X ANC headphones are pretty good. But again, there's probably no point in buying another set of ANC headphones when I have the QC15's?

 

[cossix]

I see, so the HD650 series are not for me then. The LCD-2 you're talking about is from Audeze right? I know the price is way higher than my budget limit but how would you describe the sound?

Yea they're a bit pricey but they are similar to the 650: laid back and smooth. They do just about everything better than the 650 except weight/comfort, and maybe mids. The 650 sounds better to me for vocals. I'm just a big fan of the relaxed sound. I tried the 700 and didn't like it; was too sharp and lacked emotion. I have my sights on the ZMF Atticus next

 

[obobskivich]

So like stated by cossix, if you're not using an amp they're rather useless?

I wouldn't say "rather useless" nor would I say you absolutely must own a dedicated headphone amplifier (a lot of other devices these days really have made huge strides in providing headphone connectivity - look into what your PC and other devices really offer before writing them off as inadequate performers), but they are a bit different load compared to more conventional low impedance/high sensitivity cans. They have a 300 ohm nominal impedance, and sensitivity is somewhere in the high 90s - this means they generally work well with anything that can overcome the impedance (e.g. they need more voltage than something low impedance, like a Grado or Fostex, but they don't need gobs of power like something low sensitivity, like a planar magnetic). Historically this precluded most non-hi-fi components from the discussion, but many newer PCs have built-in headphone circuits that can handle it, and some portable devices can do okay enough. Alternatively, given your budget, you could buy the HD 600 or 650 and an amplifier to run them, if you really aren't sure on your existing devices, and want to be certain they'll be powered fully.

That all having been said, I'm not a *huge* fan of the Sennheisers for EDM/trance/electronica/etc because they're just a bit too laid back/polite for my tastes. But note that's just my taste - in terms of "objective performance" they really are top notch, and probably among the best value for money in head-fi (and have been for years). I'd strongly suggest looking at the HD 600 while you're there - they're quite similar, and there are plenty of folks that prefer the older design. Here's InnerFidelity's roundup review:
https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/very-important-sennheiser-hd-580-hd-600-and-hd-650 (it also talks about the HD 580, which have been discontinued)

I can conclude from this that I should keep my QC15's if I need ANC and look for something different when at home. I also read that the Sony MDR-1000X ANC headphones are pretty good. But again, there's probably no point in buying another set of ANC headphones when I have the QC15's?

I would pretty much agree with this - unless the QC15 are broken or something, you've got a pretty stellar pair of ANC cans and I wouldn't go about buying more ANC cans - a lot of their price goes into the batteries, ANC components, etc whereas there are other headphones in the same price range (like the HD 650 or PRO900) that are more devoted/geared towards sonic performance and that's probably where I'd look. If the QC15 can continue on as your mobile/airplane offering that's great, and opens up the field (so to speak) for at-home to a wider variety of cans, including open models like the Sennheisers or the PRO2900.

Yea they're a bit pricey but they are similar to the 650: laid back and smooth. They do just about everything better than the 650 except weight/comfort, and maybe mids. The 650 sounds better to me for vocals. I'm just a big fan of the relaxed sound. I tried the 700 and didn't like it; was too sharp and lacked emotion. I have my sights on the ZMF Atticus next

Admittedly I have not heard the LCD-2, but another headphone I'd regard as "everything the HD 650 do, but better" would be the Koss ESP/950. Very easy to listen to, but with more detail, much more speed, tighter bass, and (imho) even better mids. They can sometimes be had on sale at the upper end of the originally requested ~$600 budget, and do include their own amplifier, so if we're just looking for an at-home headphone I'd say it might be worth at least considering them as a "what if." Personally I do like the 950s a lot better than the Sennheisers for electronic music, mostly due to their greater speed.

 

[simtom]

I wouldn't say "rather useless" nor would I say you absolutely must own a dedicated headphone amplifier (a lot of other devices these days really have made huge strides in providing headphone connectivity - look into what your PC and other devices really offer before writing them off as inadequate performers), but they are a bit different load compared to more conventional low impedance/high sensitivity cans. They have a 300 ohm nominal impedance, and sensitivity is somewhere in the high 90s - this means they generally work well with anything that can overcome the impedance (e.g. they need more voltage than something low impedance, like a Grado or Fostex, but they don't need gobs of power like something low sensitivity, like a planar magnetic). Historically this precluded most non-hi-fi components from the discussion, but many newer PCs have built-in headphone circuits that can handle it, and some portable devices can do okay enough. Alternatively, given your budget, you could buy the HD 600 or 650 and an amplifier to run them, if you really aren't sure on your existing devices, and want to be certain they'll be powered fully.

Well, then they're going back into consideration

That all having been said, I'm not a *huge* fan of the Sennheisers for EDM/trance/electronica/etc because they're just a bit too laid back/polite for my tastes. But note that's just my taste - in terms of "objective performance" they really are top notch, and probably among the best value for money in head-fi (and have been for years). I'd strongly suggest looking at the HD 600 while you're there - they're quite similar, and there are plenty of folks that prefer the older design. Here's InnerFidelity's roundup review:
https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/very-important-sennheiser-hd-580-hd-600-and-hd-650 (it also talks about the HD 580, which have been discontinued)

So this means that they're pretty balanced headphones then? Like you said earlier, it's best to try a couple of headphones and then decide which one I like the most.

I would pretty much agree with this - unless the QC15 are broken or something, you've got a pretty stellar pair of ANC cans and I wouldn't go about buying more ANC cans - a lot of their price goes into the batteries, ANC components, etc whereas there are other headphones in the same price range (like the HD 650 or PRO900) that are more devoted/geared towards sonic performance and that's probably where I'd look. If the QC15 can continue on as your mobile/airplane offering that's great, and opens up the field (so to speak) for at-home to a wider variety of cans, including open models like the Sennheisers or the PRO2900.

Yeah, they're still perfectly working apart from the ear cups that are starting to tear. But they can be replaced so that's not too big of an issue. As for the PRO900's, it looks like they are discontinued. Do you happen to know which headphones replaced them?

Admittedly I have not heard the LCD-2, but another headphone I'd regard as "everything the HD 650 do, but better" would be the Koss ESP/950. Very easy to listen to, but with more detail, much more speed, tighter bass, and (imho) even better mids. They can sometimes be had on sale at the upper end of the originally requested ~$600 budget, and do include their own amplifier, so if we're just looking for an at-home headphone I'd say it might be worth at least considering them as a "what if." Personally I do like the 950s a lot better than the Sennheisers for electronic music, mostly due to their greater speed.

This sale you're talking about, is that an Amazon thing? Because living in Belgium isn't that good if you want to buy from Amazon (we don't have a country specific Amazon store). Most of the times they don't even ship to Belgium and when they do you have to pay high shipping and import costs.

Are there any other headphones that are listed here that you would recommend?
Headphone List (from the /r/headphones/ subreddit)

I'm trying to reduce the selection so I can compare them easier. As of now we have the following headphones:
- Beyerdynamic DT 990 Premium
- PRO(2)900
- HD 600/650 (with or without amp)
- Koss ESP/950 (if they are on sale)

 

[simtom]

It seems like it's a very though choice between the 600 and 650 according to this thread. It seems like the 600 is much more clearer while the 650 has some more bass to it.

The reviewer actually recommends the Beyerdynamic T1 if you mainly listen to electronic music but they're a bit too expensive for me though.

 

[timind]

I used Sennhieser HD650s for a couple years when a friend loaned me his Beyerdynamic T1s. My first reaction to them was, "wow, I am missing a lot of music with the 650s." After a week or so though, they really started to wear on my ears so I gave them back. The experience got me thinking about looking at some other Beyer models. I bought a used pair of Beyer DT990 Premium 250 ohm headphones and fell in love with them. Much more open than the 650s and the comfort level is off the charts.

I highly recommend the DT990 Premiums. I DO NOT recommend the DT990 Pros though. I bought a pair of them to use in a different system and they wore my ears out (BRIGHT) worse than the T1s. Good Luck with your search.

 

[simtom]

I used Sennhieser HD650s for a couple years when a friend loaned me his Beyerdynamic T1s. My first reaction to them was, "wow, I am missing a lot of music with the 650s." After a week or so though, they really started to wear on my ears so I gave them back. The experience got me thinking about looking at some other Beyer models. I bought a used pair of Beyer DT990 Premium 250 ohm headphones and fell in love with them. Much more open than the 650s and the comfort level is off the charts.

I highly recommend the DT990 Premiums. I DO NOT recommend the DT990 Pros though. I bought a pair of them to use in a different system and they wore my ears out (BRIGHT) worse than the T1s. Good Luck with your search.

Interesting! So you would actually recommend the DT990 Premiums over a HD600 or 650? You also need to amp them right? I started looking at some amp setups and it seems like the Schiit Modi/Magni combo is a good deal. Though I also read positive reviews about Fiio products.

 

[timind]

Interesting! So you would actually recommend the DT990 Premiums over a HD600 or 650? You also need to amp them right? I started looking at some amp setups and it seems like the Schiit Modi/Magni combo is a good deal. Though I also read positive reviews about Fiio products.

Absolutely. I bought the DT990 Premiums and used them for about a week and then put the HD650s back in service for comparison. And fro my ears, and head, the DT990s were the clear winners. Because I had used the Senns for so long it took me awhile to let them go, but I did with no regrets.

I do use mine with an amp, but I also have a pair of DT770 Premiums that I use straight out of the ipod 5th gen on occasion. They have a very similar sound to the 990s, same tone but less ambiance.

The thing is though, headphones are such a personal choice. More factors involved than simply sound quality. Comfort being the main factor. I find the 990s and 770s to be the most comfortable headphones I've tried.