[grigio]

Hi
new to the forum but not new to headphones although that being said the range of equipment has been modest.

1995-2018 Arcam Delta CD Player + Stax Lambda Signature with I think Stax SR001 Amp
Great clarity and separation but somehow emotionless
2018-now Pioneer PD70AE CD Player+ Amp Musical Fidelity MX-HPA + Focal Utopia + CD to Amp Interconnect Black Dragon + Amp to Utopia Black Dragon dual balanced
Great sound very authentic and musical but soundstage a tad small and some loss of clarity versus the old electrostats.

Future combination possibilities in a system which has to be cd player based
Either
Marantz SA-10+ Benchmark HPA4+Utopia stay with black dragon interconnects CD-Amp-Headphones
or
Marantz SA-10- Stax SRM 700T (or should it be T8000!?!?)- Stax SRX9000 (Which CD-AMP interconnect?)

Music: Depeche Mode/NIN/The Kills/REM/ Talk Talk/The The/Sisters of Mercy/Film Soundtracks/General 80s based electronica
CD+SACD+High Res

Obviously the Stax system is much more expensive than the system based on staying with the focals.
After trade ins still a delta of 5000 Euros and with T8000 nearly 9000 Euros versus the Focal Upgrades.
I love the musicality and quality of the Focals but somewhow think a better soundstage is possible with STAX.
It is very difficult to arrange the right demo set ups particulary for the Benchmark Amp Upgrade.
In effect I will be upgrading "blind" to either the Marantz-Benchmark Focal system or the Marantz -Stax -Stax system
Am I right to expect a big step up with the Stax system or would upgrading the Focal system be enough?
The Marantz is coming in any case -Am I compromising the system so much that neither Focal nor Stax could "shine"
The Stax system would already be the absolute maximum expenditure I could accommodate.
Any additional cash would not be available!
Any tips/thoughts? (Other than telling me I am stupid not to find somewhere to demo my candidates together. Please)

 

[eee1111]

It’s really though to tell people what direction to go

I love Stax and I wouldn’t recommend them to people not willing/able to go all in. Estats are really expensive and you should be committed based on your personal preference. U do U.

upgrade everything around the utopia……prob your best bet. But again….based on what you* like

 

[helljudgement]

Tough call but sticking to your existing headphone is definitely the safer direction to go. Invest in a good amp as I feel that is the biggest difference maker for you right now. I don't find the pairing with HPA4 anything special with the Utopia especially at that price so do consider looking into some SET amps for your Utopia. Tubes do work wonders with Focal and you'll likely find improvements in both stage depth and width with good SET amps.

 

[catscratch]

Emotionless sound in electrostats generally means you don't have enough power. If the X9000 is on the menu, I'd also look at something like a Headamp Blue Hawaii or KGSS Carbon. Stax-branded amps are nearly all underpowered and your system will lack dynamics big time, and an aftermarket amp is usually the right call here. Be careful though, there are some lousy ones out there and price tag is not an indication of quality. If plan to stick with Lambdas, something like a 700S or 400S will be ok, but may be a bit too bright. I don't like any Lambdas with a 007t or similar tube amps (same reason - lifeless and no dynamics), but others seem to like them so who knows. But I use my L700 with an old 717 and just EQ the treble down and it sounds great. But for the X9000 you will definitely need more amp than that.

The Utopia will be more limited in what it can do in regards to things like resolution and staging, but it will always have good dynamics and will be easier to drive. It might also be more neutral than most Stax, though I personally had issues with treble fatigue and slightly off tembre. I went the Stax route, but I can certainly see the appeal of the Utopia for someone who's not as treble sensitive.

 

[mulveling]

The L700 Mk II has smoother treble than the Mk I. It definitely doesn’t sound soulless to me. I’ve liked either L700 version with tube amps - KGST, DIY HEV90, BHSE. The Mk I was definitely too bright for KGSShv and KGSShv-Carbon. The L700’s are a hell of a lot easier to drive in my experience. The omega series only sounds right to me with really powerful stuff like KGSShv, Carbon, BHSE, T2. At your budget I would look at a Headamp BHSE for your amp - it works great with anything and it’s a veritable classic. Another great new alternative could be the Eksonic Aeras, but I haven’t heard one yet and they will not show up used yet.

You could start with a L700 Mk 2 and BHSE. Really great combo and if you don’t love it you could punch out with decent resale value. Add the bigger Stax if you dig it.

Yeah the Utopia had a pretty small stage when I owned them. I don’t know how to solve for that.

 

[grigio]

Hi
thank you for the feedback. It is good to hear the opinions of people "in the know".
I can good a pretty good trade in for my Pioneer PD70AE+ Musical Fidelity MX-HPA + Utopias+ Moon Audio Black Dragons.
Therefore rather than upgrade in stages as a sensible person might do and as recommended here I think my direction will be to go the whole hog
and upgrade to: Marantz SA-10-Mjolnir Carbon-Stax SR-X9000
The Utopia system is great and it has enough soul to always get my feet tapping but I still somehow don´t feel like I am in the middle of the action and I can´t help but think I am missing that last quantum of detail retrieval/staging that is crucial for my enjoyment.
Giving up on absolute neutrality then is probably a price worth paying.

 

[Powermankw]

Hi
thank you for the feedback. It is good to hear the opinions of people "in the know".
I can good a pretty good trade in for my Pioneer PD70AE+ Musical Fidelity MX-HPA + Utopias+ Moon Audio Black Dragons.
Therefore rather than upgrade in stages as a sensible person might do and as recommended here I think my direction will be to go the whole hog
and upgrade to: Marantz SA-10-Mjolnir Carbon-Stax SR-X9000
The Utopia system is great and it has enough soul to always get my feet tapping but I still somehow don´t feel like I am in the middle of the action and I can´t help but think I am missing that last quantum of detail retrieval/staging that is crucial for my enjoyment.
Giving up on absolute neutrality then is probably a price worth paying.

Let me throw a wrench in your plans... First, 80s Electronica has no soul, that's the first problem... And I'm a fan. Dig everyone you said. I can't speak to anything else except Utopias. They do everything fantastic. The stage may be small compared to others, but it is a non-issue to me. No headphones have stage like 2 ch. so it's irrelavent. The best improvement for Utopias is Harmon curve. Much better.

Now, I kept chasing better solid state. Never even heard tubes. I got good gear, but as good as Utopias are, they were not special. I did a crazy move, sold all my stuff, got a tube integrated to run Utopias and book shelves... Angels singing. Litterally. I can't even grasp how good everything is. The Utopias are different headphones. I had to take bass out of my Harmon curve. I never knew The Cure was so bass heavy. (early stuff at least) Resolution is insane. I won't say there is 2ch stage... But everything is so bigger. I finally found what I was looking for. I can't even phathom what I would need for SS to do the same. Now I finally get it, tubes have soul. And 70s rock, I can't stand it.. . It's so bright, crappy recordings, like they didn't even know what a woofer was... Not anymore. Listed to some zeppelin last night... Yep, I'm pretty sure that is what they intended it to sound like.

So all I can say is when you say lifeless, no emotion... Utopia is an incredible driver. It will play what you give it. You give it great solid state, it will play great measurements. But just like I was, there was no emotion, life. The Benchmark never interested me as much as others said how clean it was. No clue what SS amp to tell you. I had GSX mini which was a touch warm. But tubes are just a different animal. I have gotten very little sleep since getting it. Can't take my headphones off. Like I'm 16 again. And all I listen to is digital... Even Smiths sound good. (they can be a little bright, fatiguing)

Now if you went electrostatic, LTA Z10E plays them, and yes, I hear the Blue Hawaii is phenomenal. Probably is.

 

[grigio]

Interesting opinions.
Just to reiterate the Focals bring above all else musicality and flow to the music- but I miss the soundstage and separation I suspect only top electrostats can deliver.
I somehow feel a bit of a bad apple trading in the Utopias as they have not put a foot wrong with anything in my collection.
However I cannot in any way justify to myself getting the sa10 keeping the focals with uprated amp and also taking srx9000s with an extra amp.
It is either/or not both.
If I do not try the sa10 + amp + srx9000s soon I will be too old to fully enjoy what they potentially offer.
The costs will be high but I work quite hard to allow myself to go off the rails occasionally with gut feeling decisions.
The issue of amp is still not clear: Stax 8000T or Carbon or something else. My head says 8000T my gut feeling says Carbon with their silver interconnects to boot. Hope the amp will be available again soonish.
Would the 8000T have enough juice for the srx9000s without going too trebly or hard edged?

 

[Petergrifindor]

I have no experience with the Carbon or any other electrostatic amps besides the Stax ones. What I can tell you is that I found the X9000+t8000 to be a lovely pair.

They sounds glorious together. The t8000 is not a trebly or hard edged amp at all. It's quite sweet, to be honest.

 

[Powermankw]

Interesting opinions.
Just to reiterate the Focals bring above all else musicality and flow to the music- but I miss the soundstage and separation I suspect only top electrostats can deliver.
I somehow feel a bit of a bad apple trading in the Utopias as they have not put a foot wrong with anything in my collection.
However I cannot in any way justify to myself getting the sa10 keeping the focals with uprated amp and also taking srx9000s with an extra amp.
It is either/or not both.
If I do not try the sa10 + amp + srx9000s soon I will be too old to fully enjoy what they potentially offer.
The costs will be high but I work quite hard to allow myself to go off the rails occasionally with gut feeling decisions.
The issue of amp is still not clear: Stax 8000T or Carbon or something else. My head says 8000T my gut feeling says Carbon with their silver interconnects to boot. Hope the amp will be available again soonish.
Would the 8000T have enough juice for the srx9000s without going too trebly or hard edged?

I sort of have different take on imaging. I bought the marketing with HP... Owners talk about stage like they are in a concert hall. When you actually talk about it, they mean the stage is in front of their face, but Utopias are in your head. Ya, my Utopias are in my head, maybe in front of my face on good recordings. Binaural recordings are a different discussion... But I was a little disappointed with no imaging.

However, most "space" on a recording is artificial. Computer generated. And electronic music is worse because it's not a point source playing in space... It's electronic. Listening to jazz or orchestral music, live music played in space is different. I don't see the point of chasing the nth degree of generated sound effects.

My Utopias on my new amp is definitely different. Much more expansive. If it's in my head, my head got way bigger. You obviously can pick out point sources in space as always. The imaging on my bookselfs got incredibly better. I can't believe how big the stage the present... And that's near field.

But hey, we all chase what is important to us. If imaging is your holy grail, then Utopias won't win that. What Utopias do is speed, dynamics, slam, tone, timbre... And resolution. They will resolve what you give them. But from my journey... Playing bits only gets you so far. It doesn't take much to get good digital music. Amp is what gives the most sound. And now that I went from clean, to warm, to tube... Huge difference. I like music for music. I'm a gear whore, and dig chasing gear, but now that I have good music... Don't care anymore. And that is just streaming through a crappy Bluesound to a pontus. Digital can have glare, it can be bright, it can be lifeless. I have zero interest in analog sources... But now... I got my music back. Oh the craziest with my headphones... It's not a huge stage, but a lot of recording I feel like I am live in the studio. Live. Real. Right there. So... I hope you get that, it's super cool. All the solid state gear I have had sounded basically the same with small degrees of better.

 

[grigio]

@Powermankw. Great summay of Focal attributes. It is easy to slip into the way of thinking that the next gear will be the better or best gear.. Sometimes (we I am seeking a justification to change something that is not yet broken or past a sell by date.
The Focals are very musical and sometimes the music is in the middle of your skull ( try sacd Scary Monsters from Bowie mixed by eno and track ashes to ashes )
I want to go the srx9000 route but there is a little nagging doubt now that the focals could be right with a different amp. Conversely most of my listening is not of live recordings or traditional stage music. The sometimes complex studio created soundstages are actually what I want to be in and hear. My belief admittedly based on limited recent exposure is that the best electrostats and amps do that better. Quite risky and definitely an expensive move but as already mentioned it is sometimes okay to have these selfcreated first world luxury dilemmas!

 

[Powermankw]

biggest wow moment - hearing Utopia on a tube amp for the first time. and then, WA33 + Utopia. IMO if you're running Utopia off solid state, you're definitely missing out...

Utopia was the obvious game changer for me. before that, I was running Schiit Mjolnir + HD650 off of a laptop/oppo 105d and all stock/basic cabling. the Utopia basically set me down a path my wallet utterly regrets but my heart and mind totally love.

I just thought this was funny. Read it just today in the "Biggest wow moments" thread in this forum. Someone in the same thread said Estat and Blue Hawaii was magical. It really sounds like you a tube amp for either. Enjoy man

 

[Powermankw]

@Powermankw. Great summay of Focal attributes. It is easy to slip into the way of thinking that the next gear will be the better or best gear.. Sometimes (we I am seeking a justification to change something that is not yet broken or past a sell by date.
The Focals are very musical and sometimes the music is in the middle of your skull ( try sacd Scary Monsters from Bowie mixed by eno and track ashes to ashes )
I want to go the srx9000 route but there is a little nagging doubt now that the focals could be right with a different amp. Conversely most of my listening is not of live recordings or traditional stage music. The sometimes complex studio created soundstages are actually what I want to be in and hear. My belief admittedly based on limited recent exposure is that the best electrostats and amps do that better. Quite risky and definitely an expensive move but as already mentioned it is sometimes okay to have these selfcreated first world luxury dilemmas!

Just like I said, I am a little biased on imaging. And I have never strapped a pair of electrostatics on. I didn't know anything about Utopias either... I got them because the consensus is they do everything great. Many can win on something, but the Utopias are the whole package.

So, Snarky Puppy, Live at Alpert Hall... first time I play Chonks, the concert hall just jumped out. The space, all of it, you were in the concert hall. And I can't tell you where each instrument was precisely or the lady in the tenth row in front to the left.... Then Mad Season (A-Chains/Pearl Jam collaboration) Artificial Rad... It is clearly in a well dampened studio. Quite dead, and no processing added... you can clearly hear the difference, but you can still "hear" the space. You are in a studio. With them. Drums are 6 feet away, and he is not playing quiet. I had no idea that song had that range of dynamics. So that is what I mean... the distance, height, layering... meh, I take that with a grain of salt... but "space", I love the space, and the resolution it takes for that, and clearly the Utopias can play it if the amp can pass it.

Wow.. you made me do it... Sisters, Ministry (early), Bauhaus, Perter Murphy, REM, 10,000 Maniacs (Wishing chair), DM, Joy Division... you are going to make me relive my 20s... I have never heard any of it sound so good!

 

[BournePerfect]

I really need to buy some Utopias to plug into my Studio B. Heard way too many folks attest to their transformation via tubes. It was always the "small soundstage" that kept me away personally...but I also know my Studio blows up the soundstage to a great degree on anything I plug into it. Not paying MSRP though.