Upgrade debate: source vs. cans

[TheVinylRipper]

From more of an engineering point of view, transducers are almost always the weakest link in a signal chain.

The second weakest link would be the A/D or D/A converter.

The amp is the least likely to affect the sound, IMHO.

I'm used to astronomical signal processing, where the signal is incredibly weak and has often traveled for billions of years. Astronomers call it "fossil light" and "lookback time".

Capturing the light in the first place and converting it to digital form is the most difficult part of the entire imaging chain.

There are imaging devices which can count single photons.

And a photon is considerably more elusive than an electron.

Why do you think they use photomultiplier tubes in some neutrino detectors?

http://www.sns.ias.edu/~jnb/Papers/P...tgensolar.html

http://www.sensl.com/?gclid=CPCy88WYrI0CFRQkgAodDhpwtQ

If there is no headphone amplifier which will count single electrons then amplifiers haven't gotten as good as they can be.

But as far as the ear is concerned, it is the transducer which makes most of the difference, that's where by far most of the distortion and nonlinearity in the output audio signal is coming from.

All IMHO, of course.

Oh, and by the way.. *Of course* you can perfectly rip a CD, it wouldn't be a digital format if you couldn't.

If you can't copy a CD perfectly then data disks would be impossible to make.

Cheers,

Jon

 

[TheVinylRipper]

A couple of things I forgot to mention.

The recording process has even more places for distortion, nonlinearity and noise to creep in than does the reproduction process.

Instead of just one imperfect transducer, you are dealing with often dozens or more. Acoustics, background noises, if it's live.

The ear also is but another transducer and it has its own limitations.

On edit:

I'm using a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz right now..

Audio codecs
manufacturer Crystal Semiconductor (full-duplex, according to AC-97 2.1(*3) specification)
ADC 2 stereo 18 bit A/D converters
DAC 3 stereo 20 bit D/A converters
chip's marking CS4294-JQ and CS4297A-JQ

To my ears, the thing sounds quite good, there is way more noise on the vinyl I'm ripping than there is in the soundcard, even after I clean out the noise. I find that if I completely eliminate the noise, it hurts the music. Usually I take it down to about 60 dB below clipping. That seems to satisfy most people who have listened to my finished product.

 

[003]

If he currently likes the headphones, upgrade the source, end of thread. Next to headphones, source makes the BIGGEST difference out of any upgrades.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 003 /img/forum/go_quote.gif If he currently likes the headphones, upgrade the source, end of thread. Next to headphones, source makes the BIGGEST difference out of any upgrades.

We are in agreement, sir.

 

[Duggeh]

The headphone makes the biggest difference to the sound, absolutely no question about it. The whole garbage in garbage out philosophy was acutely relevent when it first appeared, in the days of analogue systems and turntables which would cut a disc right through.

Youve never been able to get as much source for your money digital or analogue, as today, and DACs and CDps are evolving on a much faster basis than amps and transducers.

Headphones, amplification, source, power&cabling etc.

The DT880 may be a good headphone, but you could easily and readily plug in something even better with that existing rig and gain a step up. Get the character, then the quality.

 

[Mindless]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 003 /img/forum/go_quote.gif If he currently likes the headphones, upgrade the source, end of thread. Next to headphones, source makes the BIGGEST difference out of any upgrades.

Agreed.

 

[Towert7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwest1389 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I think he's going to stick to the computer because he doesnt have many cds and to try and burn them all would be... too hard. Hes looking for the Opera, although that might be a little out of his range. Are there any good DAC/amp combos around 800 that ideally have a warmer, tubelike signature? Or is it better to just get them separate. It looks like hes not going to spring for really nice headphones if they wont be used to their fullest potential, so source and amp first.

You want a nice tubelike signature? I'de recommend you check out the MHdt labs tube based DAC Paradisea ( http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZmhdtlabQQhtZ-1 ). That'll set you back about 500$. It's also a NOS DAC which will help with the warm signature.

Then you can look into a tube based amp. The Darkvoice and Woo Audio amps seem to get nice recommendations, as do singlepower amps and mapletree. This will run you about 300-600$.

Doing that will give you a nice warm tubelike sound.
I've had my paradisea+ for a while now, and will soon be getting a WooAudio WA6. I expect this will be a nice combo for a slightly tubey sound.

On another note though, I would be very careful about recommending your friend get a high end grado headphone unless he has personally heard it. They get recommended for Rock, but just because your friend likes rock music doesn't mean he will like grados. I love my Rock music, but I can't get into the grado sound signature and lack of comfort.

~Hope this helps

 

[purk]

Here's my take:

If you like the headphone and their sound characters, get a better source and amp.

If you don't like the sound of your DT880, get a new headphone.

 

[rwest1389]

Well he does really like his 880s, but also loves my sr225s for rock. So I guess thats just going to be a personal decision on his part, but it sounds like the consensus is (what hes thinking about now) getting a meier audio opera analog, using it with his 0202 would be a bad idea? It seems like 0202 is not nearly high enough grade to make such an expensive amp worth the money.

Thanks for the specific suggestions Towert7, those tube amps do look tempting and would leave room for an upgrade in amp also. You do still use an amp with that correct? Im new to high end dacs as you can tell. Also, with many of these high end amps with a right and left outputs, do you need balanced cans?
Thanks

 

[Towert7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwest1389 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the specific suggestions Towert7, those tube amps do look tempting and would leave room for an upgrade in amp also. You do still use an amp with that correct? Im new to high end dacs as you can tell. Also, with many of these high end amps with a right and left outputs, do you need balanced cans? Thanks

I think your confusing a DAC with Amp. What I linked to is a DAC, it's job is to simply convert a digital signal to an analog signal. You do not plug your headphones into it, you connect it to an amp of some sort.

 

[rwest1389]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Towert7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think your confusing a DAC with Amp. What I linked to is a DAC, it's job is to simply convert a digital signal to an analog signal. You do not plug your headphones into it, you connect it to an amp of some sort.

No I thought it was a DAC but am only confused with right/left analog out.
edit: Just rca? Looked different in the picture for some reason.

How does the Dialogue II compare to the Paradisea+?

 

[Towert7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwest1389 /img/forum/go_quote.gif No I thought it was a DAC but am only confused with right/left analog out. edit: Just rca? Looked different in the picture for some reason. How does the Dialogue II compare to the Paradisea+?

yea, the paradisea outputs a left and right signal, which you would feed into an amp.

I haven't heard the Dialogue II, so I have no idea.

This is what MHdt labs says
Quote:

Paradisea is best of the best, absolutely hi-ended product (if you can find 5670 tube before 1970’s D getter), the tube equipped in auction is GE 5670 NOS tube, sadly, packed 1982, new generation tube, find WE396A or older tube to replace if you can Renaissance II has most analog sound is designed for those ppls who suffered by digital sounding gear. The tube equipped in auction is GE 5670 NOS tube, sadly, packed 1982, new generation tube; find WE396A or older tube to replace if you can. Constantine tends to have best resolution, most tonal balanced and a little bit lesser natural than 43’s in sound. Dialogue II is very musical and natural sounding with best sound stage; however with lesser current and higher impedance (1.6K) so it may not be suitable for passive preamplifier or direct hook in power amplifier or direct fed into power amplifier. USB Plus Constantine Basically isConstantine with USB input USB Plus Dialogue II Basically is Dialogue II with USB input Paradisea+ Paradisea with USB input

 

[b0dhi]

Upgrade the amp. The Opera analog would be a good choice, but if he's on a budget the best value for money is with the DIY units. Also, rather than spending $900 for the Opera you can commission a beta22 for around $1000 which is a superb amp, and one which will scale upwards later if he chooses to upgrade his headphones.

Also, before buying an expensive CD player, I'd silence my computer, upgrade every other component in my system, fly to the moon, etc. It's nothing but redundant parts IMO (except SACD players). All of it can be ripped at full quality and played through a good soundcard/DAC, and you can do any type of signal processing on it using Winamp + VST plugins, as well as having all of your music 3 seconds away.

PS: love the Lo Pan avatar

"This is gonna take crackerjack timing Wang."
"Are you ready Jack?"
"I was born ready."

 

[tbonner1]

Many Opera fans on this forum, a good sign. I am scheduled to have one shipped this week.

 

[mercbuggy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also, before buying an expensive CD player, I'd silence my computer, upgrade every other component in my system, fly to the moon, etc. It's nothing but redundant parts IMO (except SACD players). All of it can be ripped at full quality and played through a good soundcard/DAC, and you can do any type of signal processing on it using Winamp + VST plugins, as well as having all of your music 3 seconds away.

When I am listening to Eno's "Soundtracks and Atmospheres" on my CD5i, I too feel like I am flying to the moon

. If you want the best from your CD format, go dedicated if you intend to listen at home. Why choose to spend money on passive power supplies, heatsinks, water cooling etc? Some of the best sounding digital recordings I have ever heard are almost direct recordings from Naim's own label, using the shortest possible path from recording to your ears. The computer is a useful tool and at this point nothing more for me in audiophile terms, however many plugins and however much processing is used to justify it's existence. I always like to kid myself that the 24 bit grand piano samples I use in my home studio sound like the real thing...if only.

So for the original question, source and amp should be where the money goes. This is a question of headfi and for me that still means a dedicated, standalone player. Good luck in whatever direction you choose to go

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