[MacMan31]

So I have long been considering an SACD player as I'm curious of the format. But I've heard that DSD which is what SACDs are comprised of are often just PCM converted to DSD. But many say that SACDs are better overall in sound quality over standard redbook CDs. I know that SACD is considered a dead format though a select few are still being made. It also seems more awkward of a format. For example the DSD signal cannot pass through optical or coax digital outputs to an external DAC. So you're stuck using the internal DAC in the player. The exception seems to be if using HDMI in universal players and connecting to an external DAC via I2S. But not all DACs support that.

So I was wondering if it makes sense to even get an SACD player. Or should I get a DAC which upconverts the signal from a standard CD player (which I have). If the latter which DAC would you recommend? I have a Bifrost 2 but I don't think it does any upconverting. If the former would you recommend something like the Oppo players? I'm currently looking at this option. https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649801464-seoppo-bdp-universal-player/

 

[XERO1]

Probably the easiest and cheapest way for you to get into playing SACDs would be to get the Oppo player. It can output the DSD layer of the SACD in either raw DSD or convert it to 88.2/24 PCM (menu selectable), but only from it's HDMI output (FYI, the player's video output resolution must set to 720p,1080i or 1080p for this function to work, also be sure to select "SACD-2CH" in the players settings). Your Bifrost 2 DAC can only accept PCM, so the Oppo player will need to be set to output PCM. And since no existing SACD player has an I2S output (other than the $6500 PS Audio PerfectWave Transport), you will also need a HDMI-to-SPDIF converter/audio-extractor box. There are many cheap options that will do the job, but I recommend this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08V4NDP6K/
It's also an HDMI switcher (you won't be using it for this function), but it is one of the few converters that has a coaxial output (for a stable connection to the DAC) and has the power input, HDMI input and SPDIF output all on the rear of the unit.

With the Oppo player and the HDMI-to-SPDIF converter, you will be able hear the DSD layer of a SACD (converted to 88.2/24 PCM) from your Bifrost 2 DAC. FYI, not all universal players do a good job of preserving the sound quality when converting DSD to PCM. Fortunately, the MediaTek chip that the Oppo uses does an excellent job with the conversion process. Also, the Bifrost 2 DAC internally upconverts 44.1K and 88.2K PCM to 176.4K (and 48K and 96K to 192K).

One of the main benefits of listening to the DSD layer of a SACD isn't really that it's at a higher resolution than the CD layer, but that sometimes (but not always) a master with a higher dynamic range will be used to create the DSD layer, and it will sound noticeably better (and be mastered at a lower volume) than the more dynamically compressed master that was used for the CD layer (99% of the time, the CD layer's SQ is identical to the standard CD/streaming release). But honestly, it's still a total crapshoot. Some SACDs will sound amazing, some won't.

Hope this helps.

 

[MacMan31]

Why could I not just connect the HDMI of the player to a DAC (such as a Topping D70 or D90) with an I2S input? My Sony X800 4K BDP can play SACD and has a second HDMI output for audio only. Now whether or not it's a good player for audio is perhaps debatable.

 

[XERO1]

While HDMI and I2S use the same type of cable (HDMI), they use completely different and totally incompatible data protocols.

FYI, the I2S data protocol is not limited to using an HDMI cable. There are versions of I2S that use Ethernet or dual RCA/BNC (as well as others).

 

[MacMan31]

Hmm okay. Well then the easiest way would be to just use RCA out from the player and just use its own internal DAC.

 

[XERO1]

Most universal players are not allowed to output the SACD layer (at any resolution) from their coaxial or optical SPDIF outputs. A few players (like your Sony X800) can output a 44.1/16 PCM conversion of the SACD layer from its coaxial output, but surprising (Sony co-developed the SACD format) the sound quality of it's DSD-to-PCM conversion is not very good when compared to a player that uses a MediaTek chip to do the conversion. I also own a Sony X800 and have compared it with Oppo and Pioneer universal players (both use MediaTek chips). Whether using the X800's HDMI output (at 176.4/24) or its SPDIF coax output (at 44.1/16), the difference in SQ between it and the MediaTek-based players was significant.

Edit - I misunderstood your above post. Yes, the easiest way would be to use the player's built-in DAC. But the Bifrost 2 is a significantly better sounding DAC than the DAC that's built into the X800.

 

[MacMan31]

Most DVD/Blu-ray players are not allowed to output the SACD layer (at any resolution) from their coaxial or optical SPDIF outputs. A few players (like your Sony X800) can output a 44.1/16 PCM conversion of the SACD layer from its coaxial/optical outputs, but the sound quality of it's DSD-to-PCM conversion is not very good whe compared to a player that uses a MediaTek chip to do the conversion. I also own a Sony X800 and have compared it with Oppo and Pioneer universal players (both use MediaTek chips) the difference in SQ is significant.

I don't mean the optical or coax digital outputs of the universal player. I mean use its analog RCA audio outputs. I'll never understand why they decided that DSD signal could not pass through optical coax digital RCA. The Oppo 83SE I was looking at is apparently an "upgraded" edition. But there is also a standard BDP-83 for half the price of the "special edition" model. https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649900694-oppo-bdp-83/

But this still does not answer part of my original question. Would it be any more sensible to just get a DAC which upconverts the signal? Something like this. https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649898222-musical-fidelity-m1-dac/

 

[XERO1]

I addressed the built-in DAC question in an edit to my previous post.

But just to be clear, that description of the Musical Fidelity M1 DAC is pure marketing fluff. All modern DACs upsample the incoming 44.1K data to at least 176.4/192K (and often much higher than that), unless they are a NOS (non-oversampling) design, which is quite uncommon. There are sound principles for doing this (which I won't get into here) but no matter how much you upsample or upconvert the CD-quality data, it will never have the inherently higher resolution (and sometimes higher dynamic range mastering) that the DSD layer of a SACD may have.

 

[MacMan31]

Edit - I misunderstood your above post. Yes, the easiest way would be to use the player's built-in DAC. But the Bifrost 2 is a significantly better sounding DAC than the DAC that's built into the X800.

I addressed the built-in DAC question in an edit to my previous post.

But just to be clear, that description of the Musical Fidelity M1 DAC is pure marketing fluff. All modern DACs upconvert the incoming 44.1K data to at least 176.4/192K (and often much higher than that). There are sound principles for doing this (which I won't get into here) but no matter how much you upsample or upconvert the CD-quality data, it will never have the inherently higher resolution (and sometimes higher dynamic range mastering) that DSD layer of a SACD may have.

Well I don't think the X800 even has a DAC because there are no analog outputs. Either way what about the DAC (or DACs) in an Oppo player compared with something like a Bifrost 2?

 

[XERO1]

You're right! It's the X1100ES that has a built-in DAC.

The Oppo 83 uses Cirrus Logic delta-sigma DACs and the Oppo 83SE uses ESS delta-sigma DACs with higher quality parts used for the DAC's analog output stage. If you are planning on using the player's built-in DAC for SACD playback, then the 83SE would be the better sounding option. But if you want to use your Bifrost 2, then I would just go with the 83 and get a HDMI-to-SPDIF converter and save some money. Of course, the 83SE could also be used with your Bifrost 2.

 

[MacMan31]

You're right! It's the X1100ES that has a built-in DAC.

The Oppo 83 uses Cirrus Logic delta-sigma DACs and the Oppo 83SE uses ESS delta-sigma DACs with higher quality parts used for the DAC's analog output stage. If you are planning on using the player's built-in DAC for SACD playback, then the 83SE would be the better sounding option. But if you want to use your Bifrost 2, then I would just go with the 83 and get a HDMI-to-SPDIF converter and save some money. Of course, the 83SE could also be used with your Bifrost 2.

Well the "better sounding option" can be subjective. What about this BDP-93 for half the price of the 83SE? https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649892286-oppo-bdp-93-bluray-player/ There are a few Oppo player options on CAM now but if I can keep it around $500 or less that would be preferred. Whichever one I get it would be replacing Marantz CD6006 CD player which so far has been flawless for me.

 

[XERO1]

I'll leave that up to you.

 

[chezzer]

I'm pretty sure that's what MQA does, it takes a cd and unfolds it, just buy a DAC that supports full MQA

 

[chezzer]

https://www.whathifi.com/advice/mqa-audio-what-it-how-can-you-get-it

 

[chezzer]

https://www.mqa.co.uk/mqa-cd