[castleofargh]

 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Jitter is consciously perceptible at fairly high levels. Any modern DAC, even little baby Chinese DACs, have a clock that are good enough to reduce jitter to levels that are not perceptible as jitter. So the battle isn't with old-school, extremely obvious jitter.
 
Instead of just explaining how jitter at low levels matters, let's see what respected industry manufacturers have to say:
 
MSB (builders of what many consider to be the finest DACs in the world):
 
"Our years of experience taught us amplitude (DAC) precision contributes to the realism of the instruments and voices while low clock jitter decreases ‘digital harshness’ and increases focus. Jitter simply takes the pleasure out of the music and creates listener fatigue."
 
Antelope Audio (famous in high end pro audio):
 
"Leading producers, sound engineers, artists, and movie post production studios worldwide are using the 10M Atomic Clock together with our high-end Trinity master clock. They usually describe it as “mind-blowing”, an “instantaneous improvement”, “superior”, and fundamental in bringing “more detail, ambiance, and naturalness” to the digital signal. The results are described as “wider and more solid” with “crisp transients and a 3D depth of field.”
 
---
 
Low-level jitter does have an impact on audio perception. This is well-known not only by manufacturers, but by DIY'ers as well.
 
A comparison with inter-module distortion is handy. It's known that IMD isn't generally audible in modern equipment -- because the brain filters out IMD artifacts, but IMD is seen as negative because it is theorized to lead to listener fatigue (it's a theory because it involves neuroscience but it's still a widely accepted view). You won't hear jitter, or noise in general below a certain threshold -- but that doesn't mean that it doesn't effect you.
 
I am certain beyond any shadow of a doubt -- if readers of this thread were to plug their headphones of choice (well, headphones that aren't trash anyway) into my reference system, the difference between it and their DAPs, little integrated units, etc, were would very obvious. A lot of that difference will come down to the effort and expense gone into reducing jitter and noise in the system.

 

 
enough with the well known non facts already. how about actual facts for change. I'm getting tired of telling you this isn't a contest where you win everything with rhetoric and self confidence alone. you call random stuff significant and audible without proof, saying it's well known every now and then as a lame trick to make any single of your opinions pass as some self proclaimed consensus.
right now someone mentioned an AES paper, an actual experience with an actual method that contradicts your so called well known "facts".  and instead of considering that your claims are exaggerated, or talking about what you find arguable in the paper, like anybody following logic would do when the experience contradicts the guess, you go on as if nothing happened with some marketing crap as your side of "evidence".  we don't care about what batman thinks on the matter of jitter. that's not how you demonstrate something. subjective opinions are not objective evidence.
 
in this sub section of the forum, make the claims you can back up, or stop making them. also you can go in other sections, where anything said is considered an opinion and as such doesn't need evidence.

 

[watchnerd]

@GuyUnder
 
Without facts or data, this "debate" is just becoming a big waste of everyone's time.
 
Including yours.

 

[gregorio]

  [1] Low-level jitter does have an impact on audio perception. This is well-known not only by manufacturers, but by DIY'ers as well.
 
[2] A comparison with inter-module distortion is handy. It's known that IMD isn't generally audible in modern equipment ...

 
1. Oh dear me, it just gets worse. Have you never heard of "endorsements"? I've done a few myself in the past (Korg, Yamaha, DigiDesign and Beyer). Confusing "well-known" with well-marketed is bad enough but falling for it so totally that you quote actual marketing material verbatim on a science forum, AS FACT, is astonishing. I didn't think it was even possible to have so little understanding of both marketing AND science!!!
 
2. True dat! I've certainly never heard inter-module distortion. In fact, I've never even heard of it. You obviously didn't mean inter-modulation distortion because that IMD is clearly audible, in both older and modern equipment and sometimes deliberately so!
 
G

 

[GuyUnder]

I'm sure people who are into pro audio have browsed the Sweetwater catalogue and lusted after Antelope Audio gear.

They may be endorsements but are they outright lying? I'd assume professional audio producers are more clinical and balanced in their listening impressions than hobbyists. Would a pro producer sitting in a studio with a half-million dollars worth of equipment really get excited and lose his ability to discern over a $6000 clock generator?

 

[watchnerd]

I'm sure people who are into pro audio have browsed the Sweetwater catalogue and lusted after Antelope Audio gear.

They may be endorsements but are they outright lying? I'd assume professional audio producers are more clinical and balanced in their listening impressions than hobbyists. Would a pro producer sitting in a studio with a half-million dollars worth of equipment really get excited and lose his ability to discern over a $6000 clock generator?

 
Regardless of the sincerity and provenance, they're not pieces of data.  
 
They're just subjective statements.

 

[nick_charles]

They may be endorsements but are they outright lying? I'd assume professional audio producers are more clinical and balanced in their listening impressions than hobbyists. Would a pro producer sitting in a studio with a half-million dollars worth of equipment really get excited and lose his ability to discern over a $6000 clock generator?

 
 
People can be wholly honourable and honest (as they see the truth) and still be mistaken. This is not a new concept. People can believe they hear obvious differences even when no change in stimulus has taken place, again not a new thing. People can have their perceptions biased by all sorts of expectations or misleading cues such as colouring food can fool your taste. Something with an expensive looking exterior hiding a DAP can be perceived as an expensive boutique device (Wilson did this at a CES a few years back) again not a new concept. If you think you are listening to a cheap anonymous Japanese amp when in fact there is a boutique amp in circuit you may hear all sorts of nasties from your own beloved amp. People have heard differences between two identical kettle leads. Penn and Teller (the scamps) persuaded diners (let them persuade themselves) they could tell the difference between different bottled waters (all tap water as it turned out)
 
Some engineers have told of how their clients wanted a slight change in a mix and they duly made the change to the customer's satisfaction except that knowing better they (the engineers) did not do anything at all - there is a myriad of ways we can all be fooled, it is a problem of being human...
 
That is why some folks here prefer to have more rigorous proof of genuine differences/detections blah drone etc...

 

[gregorio]

[1] I'm sure people who are into pro audio have browsed the Sweetwater catalogue and lusted after Antelope Audio gear.

[2] They may be endorsements but are they outright lying? I'd assume professional audio producers are more clinical and balanced in their listening impressions than hobbyists. Would a pro producer sitting in a studio with a half-million dollars worth of equipment really get excited and lose his ability to discern over a $6000 clock generator?

 
1. Of course you are, because all it apparently takes for you to be sure of something is if you imagine it.
 
2. No, they weren't outright lying, the Antelope Trinity + 10m was indeed great. The only problem is that it was no more great at the end of the day than a Blackmagic masterclock costing $245. You really don't get the whole endorsement thing do you? Can't say I'm surprised!
 

  Some engineers have told of how their clients wanted a slight change in a mix and they duly made the change to the customer's satisfaction except that knowing better they (the engineers) did not do anything at all - there is a myriad of ways we can all be fooled, it is a problem of being human...

 
To be honest, I can't think of any pro engineer with more than a few months experience who don't have numerous similar anecdotes. I lost count many years ago of the number of times a producer or director has said the mix needs a little more of this or that. I've added some of whatever it was, and they said, "no, no, not that much". I reduce it, "no that's still too much", so I reduce it again and then, "that's it, perfect". I often, but not always, tell them that this perfect setting we've just arrived at, is exactly the same setting we started with! There's even the old, popular and venerated anecdote of the "producer's fader". A fader on the mixing desk (assigned to a dummy buss which means it didn't actually do anything, although the producer was never of course informed of that), which the producer was allowed to adjust to their heart's content.
 
G

 

[pinnahertz]

Oh crap.  The "producer knob" secret is out.  
 
That means the rack panel with the pot I put on it with the Great Big Knob labeled "phase-regenerative correlator" with the instruction, "adjust for best effect...slowly!" probably won't work now either.  Geez, I might have to actually connect the pot to something now.  Or just yank it out and toss it in the bin with my collection of muffler bearings and left-handed screwdrivers. 
 
 
 
Darn. 

 

[watchnerd]

I thought the producer knob was affiliated with the casting couch?

 

[spruce music]

  Oh crap.  The "producer knob" secret is out.  
 
That means the rack panel with the pot I put on it with the Great Big Knob labeled "phase-regenerative correlator" with the instruction, "adjust for best effect...slowly!" probably won't work now either.  Geez, I might have to actually connect the pot to something now.  Or just yank it out and toss it in the bin with my collection of muffler bearings and left-handed screwdrivers. 
 
 
 
Darn. 

I thought you used left handed screw drivers below the equator due to the coriolis effect?  Easily explained.  If you were to screw all the way through the earth from north of the equator the threads would come out the other way below the equator.  I don't believe I am wrong about this. 

 

[pinnahertz]

  I thought the producer knob was affiliated with the casting couch?

No, the casting couch is...um...well...actually connected to something and serves a physical function.  Can't quite pull off the same type of casting without it.  

 

[watchnerd]

  um...well...actually connected to something and serves a physical function

 
Clearly the knob reference was lost....

 

[pinnahertz]

 
I thought you used left handed screw drivers below the equator due to the coriolis effect?  Easily explained.  If you were to screw all the way through the earth from north of the equator the threads would come out the other way below the equator.  I don't believe I am wrong about this. 

That's correct unless you first oggle the frammis then pressurize the knuter valve.  Then you're wrong.

 

[pinnahertz]

   
Clearly the knob reference was lost....

Nah, it was all about the physical connection.

 

[mwhals]

Just watch all of Monty's videos if you're serious (not that half ignorant crap from Hans Boykens). You'll learn about a lot more than just jitter:

Very nice! I like that this guy uses instruments to visually show what is happening as opposed to drawing inaccurate square waves. Thanks for posting.